U.S Army scraps testing after rifle outperforms M4A1

joshk1025 said:
Isn't the likelihood of hitting someone with a bullet pretty low? I heard that the GAO said it was something like 250,000 rounds for each insurgent killed. If you are thinking about whether .308 is more effective than 5.56 when it hits, you gotta balance that against how many rounds you will have of each, and whether you would be better off getting more chances with 5.56. From how I have heard veterans talk about machine guns and combat, it was all about having the enemy keep their heads down, more of an offensive defense than anything else.
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A crew served machine gun's job is exactly that......suppressive fire to keep the enemies head down.....while a fire team or sqaud can maneuver to the flanks and "take care of business".........and that whole "maneuver to the flanks" can be done a hell of alot easier carrying 5.56 ammo than 7.62 on your person!
 
whacko said:
Both put holes in people just fine.......the point is you can carry a full combat load of 5.56 and be able to maneuver faster. Have you ever carried a full combat load in addition to wearing IBA with plate carriers? If you have........ and say you would prefer 210 rounds of 7.62 ammo over 210 rounds of 5.56 ammo and will still be able to keep up with your fire team then more power to you.
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I'll do you one better,I used to have to wear a flak jacket..Ballistic plates were not in service with the Infantry when I was in.

There is a difference between putting a hole in something(5.56) and blowing it apart (.308) You get hit in the leg with 5.56 you are still walking,.308..not so much.I also would be carrying the .308 on my back rather then around my waist.
 
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mav said:
Our light infantry company used the SAW in the former role you described, 1 per fire team, 2 per squad. The weapons platoons had M60's until the M240 replaced it in our unit sometime in 2001. We also had mortars attached to the headquarters platoon... not sure how that was considered "light infantry". Ah, now I remember, "light" was code for "walk everywhere". Never said anything about how much what you humped weighed. The killer was NTC... humping TOW components in the mountains while the armor and mech infantry played in the sand...
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Even better is when you are a rifleman.....not attached to the mortar section at all .......and you still have 2 mortar rounds in your ruck so they can be consolidated and delivered to the 11 charlies......nothing better after walking 12 miles or more......and be slelected to gather up all the mortar rounds from your teams rucks....empy your personal shit out of your ruck and replace it with all the rounds and hump those to the guys with the tubes! The fun never stopped!
 
Greg said:
I'll do you one better,I used to have to wear a flak jacket..Ballistic plates were not in service with the Infantry when I was in.

There is a difference between putting a hole in something(5.56) and blowing it apart (.308) You get hit in the leg with 5.56 you are still walking,.308..not so much.
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The only picture I've ever seen of somebody hit with a 5.56 was in the leg at short range, and the dude wasn't going to be walking anywhere.
 
Mr Weebles said:
Of all the Navy's vessels, carriers are the best use of money in the long run. Forward projection of air power is absolutely critical is 99% of the US military's conflicts.
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forward projection of air power is not something dench needs or wants. 13 years of fantastic air power projection has done nothing but **** this country up.
 
exodious said:
The only picture I've ever seen of somebody hit with a 5.56 was in the leg at short range, and the dude wasn't going to be walking anywhere.
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I should have put a disclaimer that there are going to be some exceptions with 5.56 due to where the shot is.

With good shot placement,you can kill someone with a .22...Kinda like Marky Mark in Shooter [smile]
 
I remember a Delta operator in the book (it's not in the movie) Blackhawk Down complaining how the Somalis could take several 5.56 rounds from an M4 or M249 and keep fighting (they were all high and didn't feel it). One old man took 3 bursts from an M249 and got up and stumbled away.

Whereas one round from an M14 and they would stay down (one of the Delta carried an M14).

So maybe now that our enemy is typically unarmored terrorists, the 5.56 round isn't the best choice?
 
If the .guv says 5.56 is the best round and the M4 is the best weapon,it must be right..because the .guv is ALWAYS looking out for the best interests of it's subjects,correct ?

I mean it's not like politics would be involved in choosing weapon platforms or anything like that.
 
Varmint said:
I remember a Delta operator in the book (it's not in the movie) Blackhawk Down complaining how the Somalis could take several 5.56 rounds from an M4 or M249 and keep fighting (they were all high and didn't feel it). One old man took 3 bursts from an M249 and got up and stumbled away.

Whereas one round from an M14 and they would stay down (one of the Delta carried an M14).

So maybe now that our enemy is typically unarmored terrorists, the 5.56 round isn't the best choice?
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Actually the rounds were going through them and hitting people behind them. Most of those folks were 120 pounds. Easy fix, head shots. No mass to those people. I would also argue the guys involved would of been screwed if they were carry 1/3 of the the rounds in 308 vs 556.

One of the complaints in Iraq was that we were executing insurgents due to all the head shots. Scopes aimpoints and other optics were the cause. Good stuff
 
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garandman said:
Assistant M60 gunner - possibly the worst job in the military. Brutal combat load and draw a lot of fire.....

Looked up the wiki and a 7.62 round is very roughly 2.5 times the weight of a 5.56 round.
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A-Gunner on a Pig is bad, but being a Fireteam Leader or Squad Leader is worse if one of the troops falls out. Then you get to hump your weapon and ruck, along with the Pig. Of all the Pigs I humped in when I was in The Suck, the M60E3 was the worst.[shocked]
 
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The5thDentist said:
So, AK chambered in 5.56.
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Flipside to that is an AR in a .30 caliber.


whacko said:
....the point is you can carry a full combat load of 5.56 and be able to maneuver faster. Have you ever carried a full combat load in addition to wearing IBA with plate carriers? If you have........ and say you would prefer 210 rounds of 7.62 ammo over 210 rounds of 5.56 ammo and will still be able to keep up with your fire team then more power to you.
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So, how much weight exactly IS a "full combat load" in 7.62x39 vs. 5.56 vs. 7.62x51?


mav said:
Our light infantry company used the ... not sure how that was considered "light infantry". Ah, now I remember, "light" was code for "walk everywhere". ...
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My guess would be "light" means anything without wheels or an engine.
 
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Coyote33 said:
So, how much exactly IS a "full combat load" in 7.62x39 vs. 5.56 vs. 7.62x51?
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Standard loadout for an U.S Army Infantry Soldier 6 Mags + 1 in Rifle = 210 Rounds

After a quick Google search I found that a typical loadout for a grunt in Vietnam with an M14 was 4 mags + 1 in Rifle = 100 Rounds
Troops today issued the M14 are being issued 7 mags including the one in the rifle = 140 Rounds

For the Russians...Its all over the place, can any comrades help me out on this one? . I'm finding 3 Mags + 1 in the rifle and during their Afghan war, I guess the were carrying 180 Rounds, though they kept more in their packs as with any army regardless of nationality.
 
The m4 and 556 are good enough for usgi.
Maybe colt or current producer of the M4 is making crap?
In the article there is a claim of "tiny magazines" wtf. How big do they need to be.

I have zero military back ground but my dad was air force and army reserve. Always said for the most part equipment was always just good .

You could always improve on things but its not always going to happen.
 
johnny.cassidy3 said:
Standard loadout for an U.S Army Infantry Soldier 6 Mags + 1 in Rifle = 210 Rounds

After a quick Google search I found that a typical loadout for a grunt in Vietnam with an M14 was 4 mags + 1 in Rifle = 100 Rounds ...
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I meant how much does each one weigh. Still looking for the comparison of 6.8 and 5.5.6 also.


mac1911 said:
... You could always improve on things but its not always going to happen.
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My father in law thought the M3 "Grease Gun" was kinda crappy.
 
Coyote33 said:
Flipside to that is an AR in a .30 caliber.




So, how much weight exactly IS a "full combat load" in 7.62x39 vs. 5.56 vs. 7.62x51?




My guess would be "light" means anything without wheels or an engine.
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I actually posted the weights of 5.56 and 7.62 x 51....... 6 pounds vs 18 pounds......and hanging off the front of molle gear that weight is significant.......I don't know the weight if commie ammo. But at 7.62x 39 I'd say in between 6 and 18 pounds.
 
whacko said:
I actually posted the weights of 5.56 and 7.62 x 51....... 6 pounds vs 18 pounds......and hanging off the front of molle gear that weight is significant.......I don't know the weight if commie ammo. But at 7.62x 39 I'd say in between 6 and 18 pounds.
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I guess I missed that. I imagine the 6.8 will also be somewhere in between, closer to the 6 side since the bullet diameter is the only thing changing, not case size.
 
Varmint said:
I remember a Delta operator in the book (it's not in the movie) Blackhawk Down complaining how the Somalis could take several 5.56 rounds from an M4 or M249 and keep fighting (they were all high and didn't feel it). One old man took 3 bursts from an M249 and got up and stumbled away.

Whereas one round from an M14 and they would stay down (one of the Delta carried an M14).

So maybe now that our enemy is typically unarmored terrorists, the 5.56 round isn't the best choice?
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This dude got hit with 2 quick bursts from a 249......he didn't stumble away!

 
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just becuase people survive the occasional shot doesnt mean the rounds invalid. 3 bursts from a SAW and the guy walked away? Well, where was the 4th burst then?

5.56x45mm shreds a lot of stuff. It's not 7.62x51mm, but it's not a .22 short either.
 
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Varmint said:
I remember a Delta operator in the book (it's not in the movie) Blackhawk Down complaining how the Somalis could take several 5.56 rounds from an M4 or M249 and keep fighting (they were all high and didn't feel it). One old man took 3 bursts from an M249 and got up and stumbled away.

Whereas one round from an M14 and they would stay down (one of the Delta carried an M14).

So maybe now that our enemy is typically unarmored terrorists, the 5.56 round isn't the best choice?
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is that the delta operator who got overrun because he ran out of ammunition???
 
I love how they leave out the Manufacturer, Model of the gun that beat out the M4, they designate it as "Gun C" My guess is it's piston operated, what else would it be, god forbid they admit the truth, Nay Sayers eat your hearts out.

Just more confirmation that piston operated Ar's have the edge, M4's are very reliable, but not quite as reliable as pistons.

Piston for life.
 

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