U.S Army scraps testing after rifle outperforms M4A1

[Varmint]

Relax. I saw it as a good excuse to post a gratuitous video of a damn insurgent getting his ass shot! I Certainly don't plan on arguing with a well trained, experienced and totally awesome ballistics expert such as yourself

Anyhooooo.........a few guys seemed to like the vid which was really the point.

I didn't comment on the video cause I remember seeing that years ago, maybe post Iraq invasion?

 

[teaser452]

It shoots 9mm, and its easier to service and more reliable, and capacity is almost double, depending on magazine. The 92FS sucks but its still more serviceable than your average tweak-o-matic 1911. 92s are modular and throwaway; a 1911 you have to pay guys to keep them running, if you have thousands of them. DOD pays shit for a 92FS too, compared to what they would pay for a halfway decent 1911. The 1911 does not really lend itself to mass production. (at least not using 2010+ era production techniques/manufacturing. )

-Mike

Hey! I love my 92FS! It's great!

 

[Varmint]

Picked up by The Firearm Blog:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...ent=2014-08-26&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

Why does the Army not want a new rifle?

 

[whacko]

I didn't comment on the video cause I remember seeing that years ago, maybe post Iraq invasion?

Yes that was like 2003 probably. An insurgent learned that it is not a good idea to take up a fighitng stance in the wide open and point an RPG at a US convoy.

 

[rkwjunior]

Why does the Army not want a new rifle?

Because they are afraid to admit that the M4 is basically considered a clunker compared to the piston rifles in extreme tests, and the military ' s reputation would be mud. You know what kind of crap they would get for providing the troops with a piece of equipment that is considered less reliable than what is available on the market.

It's actually pretty pathetic, literally every carbine trial the military makes some sort of excuse not to change out the m4, it's starting to get old and obvious.

 

[Varmint]

I was thinking maybe the Army wants to wait til there's some kind of next generation rifle ready, cause if it upgrades now it will have to wait another 20 years to upgrade again.

 

[goodlife30]

No probably some general close to retiring has a board position at colt firearms waiting for him

 

[exo]

No probably some general close to retiring has a board position at colt firearms waiting for him

I thought Colt was going through chapter 11 or was going to be soon? The company (companies, actually) have been run by idiots and greedy bastards siphoning every bit of equity out into their own pockets. Also, I think FN has the current M4 contract?

 

[drgrant]

Because they are afraid to admit that the M4 is basically considered a clunker compared to the piston rifles in extreme tests, and the military ' s reputation would be mud. You know what kind of crap they would get for providing the troops with a piece of equipment that is considered less reliable than what is available on the market.

It's actually pretty pathetic, literally every carbine trial the military makes some sort of excuse not to change out the m4, it's starting to get old and obvious.

You're overthinking things too much. Two words.... "Red Tape". Handful of people whine about M4/M16. Certain REMFs listen and act like they're going to do something. Dog and pony show happens and lots of fluffing goes on with the military industrial complex types, guns are fired, tested, cocktail parties, etc, etc, ad nasueam. They kick the can around in a circle a little while, then even consider upgrading something, then some stupid reason comes up why nobody wants to commit to it, entire issue is dropped and can is kicked down the road for another 2 years.... Wash, rinse, repeat. Possibly maybe some special unit gets new guns, but nothing beyond that ever happens. All of this is by design, its the way that machine works. It also doesn't help things that a bunch of pipe hitters kill a ton of bad guys with M4s with minimal whining. So the whiners complaints, whether legitimate or not (for their particularly scenarios that they encountered with the firearm) sort of get lost in a din of noise. There's no "cause celebre" in the military for small arms replacement, its not like a helicopter dropped off a bunch of guys and they all got killed cause their guns jammed and they were found dead or seriously injured with jammed M4s in their hands. Hopefully there never will be one of these things.

The only way you're ever going to see DI gas guns go away in the military is if someone comes out with an open system piston gun (likely NOT an AR derivative) that doesn't dramatically increase the weight of the firearm or the unit cost. Considering that hell will probably freeze over before that happens, you get what you see right now... which amounts to an MIC circle jerk /dog and pony show every 2 years.

-Mike

 

[Smokewagon]

One of the complaints in Iraq was that we were executing insurgents due to all the head shots. Scopes aimpoints and other optics were the cause. Good stuff

I'm not seeing the type of problem that should result in anyone complaining (other than the enemy, and their gripes don't count).

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

If the M4s, etc are failing quicker than the competition and the army does not want to replace their stock of rifles.......Why not just fix the problem that would enable the existing stock of rifles to perform the same as the better rifles?

 

[PatMcD]

There is always something better.

 

[goodlife30]

I'm not seeing the type of problem that should result in anyone complaining (other than the enemy, and their gripes don't count).[/

Nothing like the sound of a rifle shot followed by the sight of a pink mist from an insurgents head in the early light of a Baghdad morning

 

[Varmint]

I'm not seeing the type of problem that should result in anyone complaining (other than the enemy, and their gripes don't count).[/

Nothing like the sound of a rifle shot followed by the sight of a pink mist from an insurgents head in the early light of a Baghdad morning

Yeah, pity the weather sucks there.

 

[rkwjunior]

If the M4s, etc are failing quicker than the competition and the army does not want to replace their stock of rifles.......Why not just fix the problem that would enable the existing stock of rifles to perform the same as the better rifles?

IMHO Because most of the competing rifles (HK, LMT, FN SCAR) have proprietary parts that won't retro-fit into standard M4's, yes, the word proprietary scares a lot of people, but unfortunately it has to be done to protect trade secrets and is the reason these rifle perform better than the DI M4. Having a military armorer install a retro-fit kit in every rifle i suspect would be a recipe for disaster.

There is always something better.

This^^^^

 

[whacko]

IMHO Because most of the competing rifles (HK, LMT, FN SCAR) have proprietary parts that won't retro-fit into standard M4's, yes, the word proprietary scares a lot of people, but unfortunately it has to be done to protect trade secrets and is the reason these rifle perform better than the DI M4. Having a military armorer install a retro-fit kit in every rifle i suspect would be a recipe for disaster.



This^^^^

Believe me when I tell you.....an actual military armorer.....aka "Soldier" "Sailor" "Airman" or "Marine" would not be involved in retro fitting any damn thing! I'm still serving......as a logistics officer in the Army........contractors do ALL retro fit of anything! Gotta keep the beltway bandit contractors well fed you know! However.....don't know why it would be a disaster to retro fit with military trained armorers...........send em to a training session on how to do the install and let em do it. Easy. that is what the contractors do.....hire any monkey that can think a little bit.....send em to a one week trainup and turn em lose........the contractors are by no means experts on any of the equipment they work on......just trained parts replacement specialists

 

[rkwjunior]

Believe me when I tell you.....an actual military armorer.....aka "Soldier" "Sailor" "Airman" or "Marine" would not be involved in retro fitting any damn thing! I'm still serving......as a logistics officer in the Army........contractors do ALL retro fit of anything! Gotta keep the beltway bandit contractors well fed you know! However.....don't know why it would be a disaster to retro fit with military trained armorers...........send em to a training session on how to do the install and let em do it. Easy. that is what the contractors do.....hire any monkey that can think a little bit.....send em to a one week trainup and turn em lose........the contractors are by no means experts on any of the equipment they work on......just trained parts replacement specialists

Regardless of who does the retrofitting, most of the parts simply won't work with the existing rifle.

 

[exo]

Regardless of who does the retrofitting, most of the parts simply won't work with the existing rifle.

Wut? Remove gas tube, existing BCG. Install gas piston, install new BCG.

Whether any of that is a good idea I don't know. I had a gas piston retrofit kit for an AR15 before, and while I liked it... lack of availability on parts if things ever went south disturbed me... so DI it is.

Personally I'd rather use a rifle that was designed around a piston rather than a piston that was designed around a gun.

 

[rkwjunior]

Wut? Remove gas tube, existing BCG. Install gas piston, install new BCG.


Whether any of that is a good idea I don't know. I had a gas piston retrofit kit for an AR15 before, and while I liked it... lack of availability on parts if things ever went south disturbed me... so DI it is.

Personally I'd rather use a rifle that was designed around a piston rather than a piston that was designed around a gun.

It may be easy with an Adams arms but it can't be done with the higher end piston kits like HK, lwrc, lmt, and POF. PWS and Lwrc stopped doing retro fit kits to the end user for quality control.

Having a piston system designed around the gun seems to work great since it's coming out on top on every rifle trial so far. I think people have a problem with their beloved DI gun being phased out by a better system.

 

[Dench]

Arent most of the problems with the M16/M4 from the magazines and not the action? Last time I read a report on tourture tests for the AR platform there was a shit ton of magazine issues based around the USGI version.

 

[exo]

Arent most of the problems with the M16/M4 from the magazines and not the action? Last time I read a report on tourture tests for the AR platform there was a shit ton of magazine issues based around the USGI version.

I have no way to corroborate this, but I swear I've read accounts before from people who've served in Iraq and Afghanistan saying that the military is still using old magazines that need to be retired and replaced. When I can get new D&H mags (to keep out of state of course) for $8, I imagine that the military should be able to get them for rather less.

 

[goodlife30]

I have no way to corroborate this, but I swear I've read accounts before from people who've served in Iraq and Afghanistan saying that the military is still using old magazines that need to be retired and replaced. When I can get new D&H mags (to keep out of state of course) for $8, I imagine that the military should be able to get them for rather less.

The magazines stay loaded for a year and wreck the springs that's the main issue

 

[Coyote33]

The magazines stay loaded for a year and wreck the springs that's the main issue

That's a new one.

 

[Hustler One]

The magazines stay loaded for a year and wreck the springs that's the main issue

This thread is still going?

Anyway, negative, springs get worn by constant compression and decompression not by staying compressed for a year or however long.

 

[exo]

This thread is still going?

Anyway, negative, springs get worn by constant compression and decompression not by staying compressed for a year or however long.

This x1000. Why won't this myth die?

 

[whacko]

I have no way to corroborate this, but I swear I've read accounts before from people who've served in Iraq and Afghanistan saying that the military is still using old magazines that need to be retired and replaced. When I can get new D&H mags (to keep out of state of course) for $8, I imagine that the military should be able to get them for rather less.

Both times that I deployed over there I was issued brand new mags that I unwrapped from the plastic bags they came in......like two days before we got on the plane.

 

[rcwhat]

This x1000. Why won't this myth die?

Because it's not a myth at all. Spring creep/relaxation is a very real thing. I'm not saying that you need to worry about it in regards to mags but saying that the phenomenon itself doesn't exist is like still argueing that the earth is flat.

 

[Andy in NH]

Most of the bad magazines I saw in the service were from worn, spread or damaged feed lips.

They didn't necessarily "look" un-serviceable, but they induced malfunctions and stoppages just the same.

If one of the Marines had one of those, I'd crush it and tell them to go survey it at the armory for another one.

Oh -and FWIW - If I were in a mounted unit (mech / motorized) that was in and around vehicles in an urban area, I'd like a 7.62mm rifle.

Dis-mounted and walking the hills again I'd favor a 5.56mm carbine.

If they could be the same basic operating system (AR type) that would be great, but I'd hesitate if they were different operating systems (AR vs. M-14).

That's certainly not a viable option for what is termed the "big Army" due to cost, just my personal preference (if I was granted it).

 

[Varmint]

Most of the bad magazines I saw in the service were from worn, spread or damaged feed lips.

They didn't necessarily "look" un-serviceable, but they induced malfunctions and stoppages just the same.

If one of the Marines had one of those, I'd crush it and tell them to go survey it at the armory for another one.

Oh -and FWIW - If I were in a mounted unit (mech / motorized) that was in and around vehicles in an urban area, I'd like a 7.62mm rifle.

Dis-mounted and walking the hills again I'd favor a 5.56mm carbine.

If they could be the same basic operating system (AR type) that would be great, but I'd hesitate if they were different operating systems (AR vs. M-14).

That's certainly not a viable option for what is termed the "big Army" due to cost, just my personal preference (if I was granted it).

Don't the Marines have a lot more leeway than the Army to pick their rifles? Seems like something the Marines could do, if not the Army.

 

[goodlife30]

This thread is still going?

Anyway, negative, springs get worn by constant compression and decompression not by staying compressed for a year or however long.

Oh really??? All of my m9 mags and m4 mags that we swapped one for one with new mags when we got to Baghdad and then Kabul were all loaded for a year. Without exception the springs were garbage from being loaded. This was unit wife of over 700 people.
When magazines are stored in the armory they are stored empty for this same reason. The fact is keeping compression on a spring all year will affect it. Why do you think we all bought new magazines and rotated them? No idea what your talking about here and where you are getting your information.