Silhouette Targets in MA

[Len-2A Training]

yes bringing this up again. So I wonder if the police training there all next week use them?

There is an exemption for police qualification only in that law (for the casual reader: this ONLY applies to clubs that are dumb enough to bet a Club Class A LTC). However, when the law changed in 1998, MCJTC (now MPTC) went "PC" and scrapped the B-27 targets and use the Q target instead (milk bottle). So MA agencies now qualify with the Q target instead these days.

Last time I qualified with MPTC was in 2000 and we used the Q targets. I was disgusted and after the qual made a comment in front of a group of full time officers de-gearing. I said "I'm now ready in case I'm ever attacked by a stationary milk bottle!" One of the officers asked me if she could use that phrase with my blessing! Disgusting.

 

[maltc]

There is an exemption for police qualification only in that law (for the casual reader: this ONLY applies to clubs that are dumb enough to bet a Club Class A LTC). However, when the law changed in 1998, MCJTC (now MPTC) went "PC" and scrapped the B-27 targets and use the Q target instead (milk bottle). So MA agencies now qualify with the Q target instead these days.

Last time I qualified with MPTC was in 2000 and we used the Q targets. I was disgusted and after the qual made a comment in front of a group of full time officers de-gearing. I said "I'm now ready in case I'm ever attacked by a stationary milk bottle!" One of the officers asked me if she could use that phrase with my blessing! Disgusting.

I was at a range up in NH today and the pro at checkout informed me I wouldn't be able to bring my extra unused target, and the one I used all day, back to mass. (due to human silhouette) because it was illegal. I kinda believed him but then said in comical fashion "Ha that seems so crazy, do you know what crime they would charge me with?"...He didn't know but was sure it was illegal.

 

[DarrenL]

do you know what crime they would charge me with?"...He didn't know but was sure it was illegal.

As a former MA gun owner living in NH, I can assure you that no one who has not lived in MA as a gun owner has ANY clue what the laws are in MA, other than “bad”.

 

[EMTDAD]

funny.. this came up yesterday on Twitter. Local law firm misstating the law..

View: https://twitter.com/Comm2A/status/1202288262100013056

 

[drgrant]

I was at a range up in NH today and the pro at checkout informed me I wouldn't be able to bring my extra unused target, and the one I used all day, back to mass. (due to human silhouette) because it was illegal. I kinda believed him but then said in comical fashion "Ha that seems so crazy, do you know what crime they would charge me with?"...He didn't know but was sure it was illegal.

It's by far the #1 MA gun law myth of all time, EVER... and it has gone almost full goebbels at this point. (if a lie is repeated often enough it becomes truth.... ) The next time someone tells me that I'm going to go:
. "Ok Costanza... "


View: https://youtu.be/vn_PSJsl0LQ

 

[whacko]

funny.. this came up yesterday on Twitter. Local law firm misstating the law..

View: https://twitter.com/Comm2A/status/1202288262100013056

There are a handful of clubs that ban the use if human silhouette targets as a range rule though (not due to any law that requires it).....even in NH. The board at my club actually just removed that range rule and it's a nh club.

 

[fencer]

How about actual images of a person? Years ago, one of the guys at AFS told me that they wouldn't allow targets with an image of Osama Bin Laden ( which were a thing at the time) because it showed an image of an actual person.
I shrugged an said OK, and took down the 8x10 color glossy photo of my mother in law, with a mustache I had drawn using a sharpie.
( kidding of course)
When I am shooting alone, my favorite target is a paper plate. I usually use "dirty bird" or "splatterburst" targets when shooting with others. You can get them pretty cheap online. I usually get them as Christmas gifts from the wife and kids. Way better than a tie or sweater that I will never wear.

 

[HuntMaine]

The several clubs I shoot at prohibit them however on my own range I use them. I’ve never understood the reason for Mass or any state or club prohibiting the use of them, nor the various vendors who self restrict the shipping of such targets to residents of certain states. In Many other out of state ranges , these targets are the most popular. Frankly the outline shape of a target does not influence the person shooting to do anything illegal anymore than would eating an old fashion donut prior to shooting practice. There’s absolutely no sane reason other than a Mass liberals feelings were hurt so they want them gone.

 

[ridleyman]

If I draw a silhouette target with a crayon, does the crayon become an accomplice? Will crayons now be outlawed? Even though it's not a law, what a stupid concept that some clubs, like mine I think, prohibit such things.

 

[whacko]

The several clubs I shoot at prohibit them however on my own range I use them. I’ve never understood the reason for Mass or any state or club prohibiting the use of them, nor the various vendors who self restrict the shipping of such targets to residents of certain states. In Many other out of state ranges , these targets are the most popular. Frankly the outline shape of a target does not influence the person shooting to do anything illegal anymore than would eating an old fashion donut prior to shooting practice. There’s absolutely no sane reason other than a Mass liberals feelings were hurt so they want them gone.

Most clubs I've been to that banned them claimed it was due to the "public image" of shooting at people. Yes.....it's being over the top cautious......but that's the reason must clubs use.

 

[whacko]

If I draw a silhouette target with a crayon, does the crayon become an accomplice? Will crayons now be outlawed? Even though it's not a law, what a stupid concept that some clubs, like mine I think, prohibit such things.

We just removed that range rule at cpfg a couple months ago.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I’ve never understood the reason for Mass or any state or club prohibiting the use of them

I think the use of a target of a particular person (might have been the legislator himself) pissed off a particular state rep who was, fortunately, not competent enough to craft a bill that actually did anything.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I think the use of a target of a particular person (might have been the legislator himself) pissed off a particular state rep who was, fortunately, not competent enough to craft a bill that actually did anything.

This was the exact reason. Shooting at pictures of presidents usually will result in a visit by USSS, at least that is the most common belief. If someone notices and reports it or posts pictures, it gives negative attention none of us needs.

 

[rivet_42]

Back in the '90s I'd heard the "Shooting at silhouettes is illegal unless you're LE" thing in NJ as well. It appears to be a common urban legend in restrictive states regardless of the actual law. (I don't know what the law might be in NJ; for all I know, it's a thing there.)

I think a lot of people end up conflating what's "illegal" versus what's prohibited according to range policy or what some store won't sell them. It's not uncommon for people who question such policies to be told that the policy exists "because it's illegal", when that's a convenient lie used to forestall further argument. (Else it's not uncommon to have to listen to several rounds of "But whyyyyy?" like you're talking to a six year old.) The downside is that the customer comes away with a bad understanding of the law which they then repeat to their friends.

 

[drgrant]

This was the exact reason. Shooting at pictures of presidents usually will result in a visit by USSS, at least that is the most common belief. If someone notices and reports it or posts pictures, it gives negative attention none of us needs.

These days I wouldn't be caught shooting at a picture of any real person,, outside of those silly mass produced "hostage and robber" targets etc you see at pay ranges etc.

I can even "understand" a private club not even allowing people to shoot at such targets, but to ban silhouette targets? That's basically lunacy.

-Mike

 

[one-eyed Jack]

If the AR15 was designed to "Kill as many people as quickly as possible" it only makes sense that you would use targets with pictures of people on them. Jack.

 

[Broc]

Dude, thisnis my favorite myth and I mess with people. I usually walk up to people shooting at silhouette targets and ask them "did you know that's illegal in MA?" ... I then tell them the truth when I see the look of "are you f-ing serious?"

------‐----

Can you shoot a satellite image of a fudd range?

 

[Len-2A Training]

These days I wouldn't be caught shooting at a picture of any real person,, outside of those silly mass produced "hostage and robber" targets etc you see at pay ranges etc.

I can even "understand" a private club not even allowing people to shoot at such targets, but to ban silhouette targets? That's basically lunacy.

-Mike

For 17 yrs, I had to do my police qualification on a B-27 target (silhouette of a man in a suit jacket). After the 1998 law, MA police qual has been on a "milk bottle" target (FBI Q-target). I can't make any sense of it and the first time I did a qual on that target afterwards I commented that "now if I'm ever attacked by a standing milk bottle, I'm fully qualified"!

With everyone posting pictures in social media, any target that looks like a person will get us plenty of negative attention.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

My grandkids use blue helmets for target practice with the Thompson. Just getting ready. Jack.

 

[LoginName]

Damn, talk about a thread resurrection.
This thread is almost as old as NES itself.

There is an exemption for police qualification only in that law (for the casual reader: this ONLY applies to clubs that are dumb enough to bet a Club Class A LTC). However, when the law changed in 1998, MCJTC (now MPTC) went "PC" and scrapped the B-27 targets and use the Q target instead (milk bottle). So MA agencies now qualify with the Q target instead these days.

Last time I qualified with MPTC was in 2000 and we used the Q targets. I was disgusted and after the qual made a comment in front of a group of full time officers de-gearing. I said "I'm now ready in case I'm ever attacked by a stationary milk bottle!" One of the officers asked me if she could use that phrase with my blessing! Disgusting.

A years ago a number of PD's switched to using blue silhouette targets because certain SJW types complained that
using black targets was racist. I don't know how true that is or not.

I think the use of a target of a particular person (might have been the legislator himself) pissed off a particular state rep who was, fortunately, not competent enough to craft a bill that actually did anything.

l

Cynthia Creem?
I seem to recall her having a meltdown over something like that.

 

[granitestater]

For 17 yrs, I had to do my police qualification on a B-27 target (silhouette of a man in a suit jacket). After the 1998 law, MA police qual has been on a "milk bottle" target (FBI Q-target). I can't make any sense of it and the first time I did a qual on that target afterwards I commented that "now if I'm ever attacked by a standing milk bottle, I'm fully qualified"!

With everyone posting pictures in social media, any target that looks like a person will get us plenty of negative attention.

Actually, there have been a few studies done that have shown that if someone can hit a Q consistently then they will be more likely to hit a vital organ if ever forced to shoot in self defense. The B27 is far to large to replicate hits onto vital organs. Remember what Mel Gibson (as Captain Benjamin Martin) said in The Patriot: "aim small, miss small". The Q is smaller.

Here is a standard Q target:
Law Enforcement Targets | Action Target : Standard FBI/DEA Q Target on Manila Target Paper

Here is a Q target with vital organs printed on it:
Action Target : FBI Q Target w/ Vital Anatomy - NEW

And here is a B27:
Law Enforcement Targets | Action Target : B-27 Standard Target (Black)

If you go to this page, you will see that many states use Q or similar targets for qualification and the similar (including the B21) are all smaller than a B 27:
Law Enforcement Targets | Action Target : See All State-Specific Qualification Targets

 

[Thirwell1216]

No offense to the original poster, but this is sad that this thread even has to exist.

 

[maltc]

MA police qual has been on a "milk bottle" target (FBI Q-target). I can't make any sense of it and the first time I did a qual on that target afterwards I commented that "now if I'm ever attacked by a standing milk bottle, I'm fully qualified"!

That is hilarious. Maybe someone can sell a silhouette of MA gun laws!

 

[dcmdon]

I used to shoot IDPA back in 1998 at the S&W academy, when this law passed. We were gearing up for the IDPA Winternationals and some were concerned that the IDPA targets were "illegal". In the end it was resolved that it wasn't a problem.

We actually ran some stages at the monthly local meet there with the targets turned sideways. They were "bears" in case we had to run the WinterNationals with sideways oriented targets. But it was never done.

 

[enbloc]

My preferred human silhouette target is a styrofoam wig stand...

They are more fun when jelly-filled...
Tasty pink mist...

Illegal?...maybe

 

[Rob Boudrie]

For 17 yrs, I had to do my police qualification on a B-27 target (silhouette of a man in a suit jacket). After the 1998 law, MA police qual has been on a "milk bottle" target (FBI Q-target). I can't make any sense of it and the first time I did a qual on that target afterwards I commented that "now if I'm ever attacked by a standing milk bottle, I'm fully qualified"!

Some are even printed in blue and green for racial neutrality in training. (not referring to Q targets specifically).

 

[Rob Boudrie]

You are not the first one to think of that. The JP Rifles AR video includes a demonstration of one of their full autos on just such a target.

My preferred human silhouette target is a styrofoam wig stand...

 

[drgrant]

I think the use of a target of a particular person (might have been the legislator himself) pissed off a particular state rep who was, fortunately, not competent enough to craft a bill that actually did anything.

Of course one has to ask, how old is that stupid chunk of the law?

ETA: dcmdon said 1998, wouldn't surprise me if it got thrown in there as a tack on amendment by some dumbass legislator, and it never got challenged because anyone that read it, determined it was functionally meaningless....

My preferred human silhouette target is a styrofoam wig stand...

They are more fun when jelly-filled...
Tasty pink mist...

Illegal?...maybe

Back in the day not that long ago, in NH, Manna Distributing used to sell those things as terrorist heads, with a wig on them... Miss that place, he had some of the
weirdest shit in there, and if you had a wad of cash and any bargaining skill whatsoever, it was a great place to score deals on bulk ammo, all of his sticker prices were posted with
the assumption that someone would want to work a deal.... he had what had to have been metric tons of 7.62 x 54R milsurp too... so it was the to-go place if you had a romak, tigr, SVD or a Mosin.....

-Mike

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

Of course one has to ask, how old is that stupid chunk of the law?

ETA: dcmdon said 1998, wouldn't surprise me if it got thrown in there as a tack on amendment by some dumbass legislator, and it never got challenged because anyone that read it, determined it was functionally meaningless....

-Mike

It was part of Ch. 180 Acts of 1998. I was told by a legislator that it got thrown into the bill in the 11th hour and they were tired of arguing so they let it pass. Probably figured that no club would be dumb enough to get the Club LTC, which is the only trip point to make it "illegal" for the CLUB to allow use of the targets . . . for other readers benefit, there is NO penalty on the shooter, only the club with the LTC.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

. . for other readers benefit, there is NO penalty on the shooter, only the club with the LTC.

I don't even remember a penalty on the club, and the offense would be "failure to prohibit", not the act of someone shooting at such a target.