Shotgun Capacity/Questiions in Massachusetts

[Len-2A Training]

Jasons, fair enough.

 

[DrNVP]

...

 

[w1dbc]

RIFLE on FID card

So I'm new here also and have a question (maybe more). I just applied for my FID here in Ma. (yesterday) and was wondering about the "large capacity" for rifles/shotguns..I know its 5 for shotgun and 10 for rifles (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong). With that said (providing I'm correct), I CAN have a rifle with a magazine 10 or less (not considering shotgun at the moment, just rifle.)??

 

[jasons]

So I'm new here also and have a question (maybe more). I just applied for my FID here in Ma. (yesterday) and was wondering about the "large capacity" for rifles/shotguns..I know its 5 for shotgun and 10 for rifles (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong). With that said (providing I'm correct), I CAN have a rifle with a magazine 10 or less (not considering shotgun at the moment, just rifle.)??

That's another messed up law. The actual law (MGL) says that the rifle only needs to be capable of accepting or readily modifiable to accept a large capacity feeding device, which would make pretty much any magazine-fed firearm large capacity.

Then there're a "regulation" (CMR) that says that the large capacity feeding device has to actually be in possession for it to count. Now CMRs aren't laws, they're only supposed to be interpretations of the law. I'm my opinion this particular one exceeds it's authority because it effectively changes the letter of the law. (Many disagree.)

Then just to make it even more ****ed, EOPS publishes a list of "large capacity" firearms based on a completely different criteria which has no basis in the law (original shipping configuration, which is completely irrelevant according to both the law and the regulation.)

So, depending on who you ask and depending on the gun in question pretty much any gun with a magazine could be either large capacity or not.

With that said, if you stay away from guns on the list and you're careful to never possess any "large capacity feeding devices" you ~should~ be OK.

 

[jar]

So I'm new here also and have a question (maybe more). I just applied for my FID here in Ma. (yesterday) and was wondering about the "large capacity" for rifles/shotguns..I know its 5 for shotgun and 10 for rifles (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong). With that said (providing I'm correct), I CAN have a rifle with a magazine 10 or less (not considering shotgun at the moment, just rifle.)??

Are you under 21? Do you have anything in your background for a chief to hang a denial on? If not, just apply for an LTC so you don't have to worry about any of that crap.

 

[gene]

Does it have a pistol grip??? if so then yes it would be Illegal in MA. The question I have is there such thing as a pre-ban Shotgun? If I had a 20 year old 1100 model would it be exempt like an AR would be?


Mac

SPA-12 and LAW 12 are two that I can think of

 

[Len-2A Training]

It is not just "age" but also had to be configured in AW format PRIOR to the ban (at some point in its life).

 

[juanzo]

Hey guys. I just purchased a saiga 12 shotgun and it is stock. Nothing has been converted on the shotgun my question is this can I own 10 round mags for my shotgun? I have a ltc-a.

 

[exo]

Hey guys. I just purchased a saiga 12 shotgun and it is stock. Nothing has been converted on the shotgun my question is this can I own 10 round mags for my shotgun?

Not in MA. Limited to 5rd. Not aware of any pre-bans for the Saiga 12.

 

[juanzo]

So even with a ltc-a. 5 round mag is the limit?

 

[exo]

So even with a ltc-a. 5 round mag is the limit?

Yes.

“Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term “large capacity feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

 

[juanzo]

I've read that before and from what I am gathering all that's saying is basically a description of what is an assault weapon

 

[juanzo]

Because I read the whole law and it's not really clear on what's the limit or what isn't the limit. Like I said what I'm reading there on that law is basically a description of what is a assault weapon and what is considered large capacity but it doesn't say that 5 round shotgun magazines are the limit

 

[exo]

I've read that before and from what I am gathering all that's saying is basically a description of what is an assault weapon

And anything defined as an "assault weapon" or post-ban "large capacity feeding device" is illegal in MA, regardless of what license you have.

Section 131M. No person shall sell, offer for sale, transfer or possess an assault weapon or a large capacity feeding device that was not otherwise lawfully possessed on September 13, 1994. Whoever not being licensed under the provisions of section 122 violates the provisions of this section shall be punished, for a first offense, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and for a second offense, by a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than five years nor more than 15 years, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to: (i) the possession by a law enforcement officer [strike=1]for purposes of law enforcement[/strike]; or (ii) the possession by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving such a weapon or feeding device from such agency upon retirement.

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131M

The part in strikethrough was removed with the law passed last year, but they haven't updated the website yet.

- - - Updated - - -

Because I read the whole law and it's not really clear on what's the limit or what isn't the limit. Like I said what I'm reading there on that law is basically a description of what is a assault weapon and what is considered large capacity but it doesn't say that 5 round shotgun magazines are the limit

See above.

 

[juanzo]

Ok well thats cool ty for the info. Im just so glad that my wife and i are movin to arizona this summer I had enough of Massachusetts shenanigans in just about everything not just guns..

 

[browncoat]

And anything defined as an "assault weapon" or post-ban "large capacity feeding device" is illegal in MA, regardless of what license you have.



https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section131M

The part in strikethrough was removed with the law passed last year, but they haven't updated the website yet.

- - - Updated - - -



See above.

The interesting thing is that you see places selling post ban, greater than 5 round capacity tubular magazine shotguns.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The interesting thing is that you see places selling post ban, greater than 5 round capacity tubular magazine shotguns.

The whole tubular mag issue is a morass of stupid law and a more reasonable "interpretation" which actually violates the law.

I have a very tiny glimmer of hope that this might change, but can't say any more about it.

 

[exo]

The interesting thing is that you see places selling post ban, greater than 5 round capacity tubular magazine shotguns.

On a pump action it's not an AW, though I can't say for sure one way or another whether it constitues a LCFD. On a semi, greater than 5 is defined as an AW.I think those are sold here too.

 

[browncoat]

The whole tubular mag issue is a morass of stupid law and a more reasonable "interpretation" which actually violates the law.

I have a very tiny glimmer of hope that this might change, but can't say any more about it.

Well then now I have the faintest speck of a tiny glimmer of hope. I haven't heard of any one getting in trouble for say an 8 round 12 gauge tube pump, but you never know in this state.

On a pump action it's not an AW, though I can't say for sure one way or another whether it constitues a LCFD. On a semi, greater than 5 is defined as an AW.I think those are sold here too.

Yeah, it wouldn't be an AW, but it seems pretty clear that it would be an LCFD, since the definition of LCFD specifically calls out tubular magazines (to except them in the case of 22 calibre). Another funny result of the law is that, technically, one could build a 30 round tubular magazine for a 223 pump action AR rifle and have it be completely legal (and very awkward) while a 17 calibre variant of a 22 LR gun would need to have a 10 round or less tube.

 

[Len-2A Training]

On a pump action it's not an AW, though I can't say for sure one way or another whether it constitues a LCFD. On a semi, greater than 5 is defined as an AW.I think those are sold here too.

A compelling reason for changing this stupidity in the law is that due to mini-shells being readily available, EVERY 3-round tube (e.g. my Rem 1100 skeet gun) can hold 6 mini-shells and thus could be a LCFD by black letter of the law definition!!

We'll have to wait and see what (if anything) happens.

 

[exo]

A compelling reason for changing this stupidity in the law is that due to mini-shells being readily available, EVERY 3-round tube (e.g. my Rem 1100 skeet gun) can hold 6 mini-shells and thus could be a LCFD by black letter of the law definition!!

We'll have to wait and see what (if anything) happens.

That's a good point. The law doesn't specify how the capacity of a tubular magazine is to be determined. The whole thing is ****ed no matter how you swing it. I'm not holding my breath for a rational correction or elimination of this law, though.

 

[drgrant]

The interesting thing is that you see places selling post ban, greater than 5 round capacity tubular magazine shotguns.

It's because regardless of what the law is there seems to be a backroom directive for EOPS et al to ignore it, and by proxy, the police seem to completely ignore it too.

-Mike

 

[22lr]

So, is a Remington 1100 tac 4 MA compliant given that it does not have a pistol grip? That would only be 2 killy things by my count. Anyone see these for sale in MA?

 

[edmorseiii]

Oh man, I should really unsubscribe from this thread, it reminds how bad MA is. To answer the is it MA compliant, probably not. Should you care? No.

 

[drgrant]

So, is a Remington 1100 tac 4 MA compliant given that it does not have a pistol grip? That would only be 2 killy things by my count. Anyone see these for sale in MA?

There are all kinds of things for sale in MA at dealers which may or may not be legal. Use your own judgement, Or your own level of concern. Or lack thereof.

-Mike

 

[Agnotology]

Just bumping this because I had a disagreement at my LGS. With an LTC, can a tube be considered a high capacity feeding device for a shotgun that is semi-auto? Looking at a Benelli M3 or the Stoeger clone. The benelli is pre-ban, has the original folding stock. The Stoeger is for sure post ban.

Both hold 5 currently.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Just bumping this because I had a disagreement at my LGS. With an LTC, can a tube be considered a high capacity feeding device for a shotgun that is semi-auto? Looking at a Benelli M3 or the Stoeger clone. The benelli is pre-ban, has the original folding stock. The Stoeger is for sure post ban.

Both hold 5 currently.

Read the explanation of this in Post # 147 of this thread. ARV explained it, just as it was told to me and 200 chiefs/LOs at one of Glidden's classes.

 

[Agnotology]

Read the explanation of this in Post # 147 of this thread. ARV explained it, just as it was told to me and 200 chiefs/LOs at one of Glidden's classes.

That answer being specified as specifically for pump guns threw me. Are you saying that same definition applies to semi auto's? I am asking in the context of putting a longer tube for greater capacity. I'm aware the Benelli is pre-ban, so I just need to find a pre-ban tube to affix. But on the Stoeger, the tube magazine, despite being fixed, does not meet the criteria of an AW because it's stock is fixed and the tube is not considered a fixed or detachable magazine?

 

[Len-2A Training]

That answer being specified as specifically for pump guns threw me. Are you saying that same definition applies to semi auto's? I am asking in the context of putting a longer tube for greater capacity. I'm aware the Benelli is pre-ban, so I just need to find a pre-ban tube to affix. But on the Stoeger, the tube magazine, despite being fixed, does not meet the criteria of an AW because it's stock is fixed and the tube is not considered a fixed or detachable magazine?

I guess that you don't understand that there is a different (from the AW law) law wrt "large capacity feeding devices"?

Many people have been charged with "possession of large capacity feeding devices" where the gun they fit isn't an AW per MGL.

Now, all this having been said, my 17 yrs on a PD and subsequent following many discussions by LEOs of their actual practices, I'm not sure that I'd want to risk my retirement savings on LEOs giving a pass to any large capacity shotgun tube.

IANAL, but I speculate that one reason why EOPPS took the position that they have on shotgun tubes might well be the introduction of mini-shells. That definitely muddies the waters for a prosecution since my Rem 1100 Skeet gun with a 3 shell tube could theoretically hold >5 mini-shells even though it wasn't marketed for that purpose. Maybe they wanted to not deal with cases that could confuse a judge or jury? Pure speculation on my part . . .