Shotgun Capacity/Questiions in Massachusetts

[Tips88]

I'm a bit of a noob, new to the forums.

I was wondering what the legal size for the magazine tube on a pump action shotgun in Massachusetts. I am looking to get a Remington 870, and hoping its not too neutered.

Also is it legal to buy a pistol grip and throw it on there for home defence?

Thanks in advance everyone

 

[EcHo]

The legal size for magazine capacity depends on what type of a license you have. If you have an FID then you are limited to 5 rounds. If you have an LTC-B or LTC-A you can have whatever you like. (assuming tube-fed shotguns and NOT magazine fed)

As for the pistol grip, I believe the law states that if you have a semi automatic rifle with a removable magazine you are limited by the AWB (assault weapons ban). Since you do not have a rifle I do not believe you are legally prohibited from affixing a pistol grip to your shotgun.

Given that it's after 10pm on halloween weekend I'm far too lazy to look up the cites for these statements (although I'm 95% sure they're correct) but someone will correct me if I'm wrong because everyone likes correcting someone.

 

[Lank]

Depends on the type of license you are issued.

With an FID card, it is five

With an LTC-A, over 5.

Pistol grips are always illegal.

There are many other experts in the ma gun "laws" here, I am sure they will weigh in. Expect to be lectured.

 

[Kevlar]

I was wondering what the legal size for the magazine tube on a pump action shotgun in Massachusetts. I am looking to get a Remington 870, and hoping its not too neutered.

Pump shotgun capacity is unlimited. Semi-auto capacity is regulated by license type...

FID holders - capacity is limited to 5 or less.
LTC holders - capacity is unlimited.

Also is it legal to buy a pistol grip and throw it on there for home defence?

Yes.

 

[whatluck]

Depends on the type of license you are issued.

With an FID card, it is five

With an LTC-A, over 5.

Pistol grips are always illegal.

There are many other experts in the ma gun "laws" here, I am sure they will weigh in. Expect to be lectured.

Pistol grips are only illegal on semiauto shotguns with detachable magezines.

 

[Lank]

Pistol grips are only illegal on semiauto shotguns with detachable magezines.

Really? Thats great news. BTW, the Derek quote is hysterical

 

[Tips88]

Thanks for such a quick response

 

[DickWanner]

The legal size for magazine capacity depends on what type of a license you have. If you have an FID then you are limited to 5 rounds. If you have an LTC-B or LTC-A you can have whatever you like. (assuming tube-fed shotguns and NOT magazine fed)

You are limited to low capacity semi-automatic shotguns, not pumps.

As for the pistol grip, I believe the law states that if you have a semi automatic rifle with a removable magazine you are limited by the AWB (assault weapons ban). Since you do not have a rifle I do not believe you are legally prohibited from affixing a pistol grip to your shotgun.

There are separate AWB configurations for rifles, pistols, and shotguns. A shotgun that is semi-automatic can have either a pistol grip OR a detachable magazine. You can put whatever the hell you like on a pump-action shotgun as it cannot by definition ever be an assault-weapon.

Given that it's after 10pm on halloween weekend I'm far too lazy to look up the cites for these statements (although I'm 95% sure they're correct) but someone will correct me if I'm wrong because everyone likes correcting someone.

Guess the 5% was working against you

Depends on the type of license you are issued.

With an FID card, it is five

With an LTC-A, over 5.

The licensing structure doesn't work by numbers, it works by type.

FID = non-large capacity rifles and shotguns
LTC-B = large capacity rifles and shotguns, non-large capacity pistols
LTC-A = both large capacity pistols and rifles and shotguns

The definition of large capacity is a semi-automatic rifle that can accept more than 10 rounds, a semi-automatic shotgun that can accept more that 5 rounds, and a pistol that can accept more than 10 rounds. A pump-action, lever-action, bolt, or break-action long gun can NEVER EVER EVER be large capacity regardless of the rounds it can accept nor can it be an assault weapon.

Pistol grips are always illegal.

See a few responses above.

There are many other experts in the ma gun "laws" here, I am sure they will weigh in. Expect to be lectured.

No lecturing to the OP, just the people replying to the thread .

Pump shotgun capacity is only limited by license type...

FID holders - capacity is limited to 5 or less.
LTC holders - capacity is unlimited.

See above for comments on numbers, limit is 5 or less in a semi-automatic shotgun, not a pump. I'm surprised that even you got this one wrong

Pistol grips are only illegal on semiauto shotguns with detachable magezines.

Hey, someone got it right!

 

[Kevlar]

See above for comments on numbers, limit is 5 or less in a semi-automatic shotgun, not a pump. I'm surprised that even you got this one wrong

Yup, that's what I get for not paying attention. Thanks and +1 to you.

 

[DickWanner]

Yup, that's what I get for not paying attention. Thanks and +1 to you.

No worries

 

[GSG]

Just be careful when throwing a pistol grip on a shotgun.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/87611-pistol-grip-shotgun-not-a-shotgun

 

[jar]

Pump shotgun capacity is unlimited. Semi-auto capacity is regulated by license type...
FID holders - capacity is limited to 5 or less.
LTC holders - capacity is unlimited.

I've asked this question several times and no one has ever been able to explain it. I know that a pump shotgun is by definition not high capacity, and a >5 round semi-auto is not an 'assault weapon' unless it has another evil feature (pistol grip, etc). However, why is an extended tube magazine not a large capacity feeding device? It seems it isn't on a pump, as evidenced by Four Seasons and others selling 8 shot pump guns. What's the story on a semi-auto?

(i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term “large capacity feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

The fact that they specifically exempt tube fed 22s suggests that a tube fed shotgun can be a LCFD. I really want to put an extended tube on a new shotgun for 3-gun, but I want to understand this first.

 

[GSG]

I've asked this question several times and no one has ever been able to explain it. I know that a pump shotgun is by definition not high capacity, and a >5 round semi-auto is not an 'assault weapon' unless it has another evil feature (pistol grip, etc). However, why is an extended tube magazine not a large capacity feeding device? It seems it isn't on a pump, as evidenced by Four Seasons and others selling 8 shot pump guns. What's the story on a semi-auto?

MGL 140-121 answers that.

http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

“Large capacity weapon”, any firearm, rifle or shotgun: (i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device; (ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device; (iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or (iv) that is an assault weapon. The term “large capacity weapon” shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that is a single-shot weapon; (iv) any weapon that has been modified so as to render it permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a large capacity weapon; or (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable large capacity weapon.

On a pump, only the mag tube is considered "large capacity." If it's a semi auto both the gun and mag tube can be, you need to have at least an LTC-B and it must be AWB compliant if it holds more than 5 rounds. Very easy to unknowingly run afoul of that.

The fact that they specifically exempt tube fed 22s suggests that a tube fed shotgun can be a LCFD. I really want to put an extended tube on a new shotgun for 3-gun, but I want to understand this first.

You're correct, an extended shotgun mag tube is considered a high cap mag if it holds more than 5 rounds. In a 3 gun is the shotgun pump or semi?

 

[jar]

I understand that a pump gun cannot be a "large capacity weapon". What I don't understand is why the 8 shot tube is not a "large capacity feeding device".

Either, but I'm talking about a semi.

 

[GSG]

I understand that a pump gun cannot be a "large capacity weapon". What I don't understand is why the 8 shot tube is not a "large capacity feeding device".

Ah, my bad.

It appears that your question is rhetorical: a shotgun tube that holds more than 5 rounds must be a "large capacity feeding device," even if the gun itself isn't "large capacity" when it's a pump. Meaning the people with FID's throwing an extended tube on are likely committing a felony.

That was a good question, one that shed new light on an old problem that NES as a whole seems to have overlooked. +1 to you sir.

Either, but I'm talking about a semi.

On a pump/bolt gun only the tube itself would be "large capacity," on a semi, both the gun and the tube would be. Pumps are still AWB exempt, however.

 

[jar]

It appears that your question is rhetorical: a shotgun tube that holds more than 5 rounds must be a "large capacity feeding device," even if the gun itself isn't "large capacity" when it's a pump. Meaning the people with FID's throwing an extended tube on are likely committing a felony.

Not just people with FIDs. LTC holders can't possess post-ban LCFDs either. The fact that this has gone on so long with no issues suggests there must be a flaw in my reasoning, but I haven't found it yet.

 

[GSG]

Not just people with FIDs. LTC holders can't possess post-ban LCFDs either.

Also correct, although I have never seen a thread on how to identify pre-ban shotgun tubes. Whata mess.

The fact that this has gone on so long with no issues suggests there must be a flaw in my reasoning, but I haven't found it yet.

Not really. To the best of my knowledge, there has been less than a dozen AWB prosecutions/trouble initiated by LE since the GCA 1998 passed in MA, which adds up to less than one per year. Two of them involved AR's, one involved pistol mags identifiable as post ban (possibly LE marked), and details are very scant on the other cases. I think the odds of LE catching the "large cap with a pump shotgun" are ridiculously low, and even smaller when you consider how few people are aware of AWB issues. That doesn't mean it's legal or that anyone's immune from being turned into "that guy," just that the odds are it won't come up.

If it does come up it's a 10 year felony though, so I definitely wouldn't recommend that anyone violate it.

 

[DickWanner]

Not just people with FIDs. LTC holders can't possess post-ban LCFDs either. The fact that this has gone on so long with no issues suggests there must be a flaw in my reasoning, but I haven't found it yet.

It is because the laws were so poorly written that it was never intended for a pump
shotgun with a tube extension to be considered large capacity or it's feeding device. Though you have found a very interesting flaw/shortcoming with the law, and I commend you for that. Let's just hope our oppressors don't find out and use this to prosecute FID holders and AWB-violators.

 

[GSG]

Something that just occurred to me, a very interesting point. The law only specifies 5 shotgun shells, it doesn't specify five 2 3/4 inch 12 guage shells, etc.

So let's say you load up your shotgun with a bunch of those Aguila mini shotshells that are about half the size of a normal shell. Even if the tube only holds 5 rounds of 2 3/4 inch shells, it'll hold a lot more than that with those mini's.

But here's where it gets really interesting. Under Mass. law, a magazine is large capacity if it's "capable of accepting" more than 5 shotgun shells. A shotgun tube that will only hold 4 normal sized shells will hold 1.5 or 2 times as many of the mini's.

Tube mag capacity depends on the length of the tube and the length of the shell, whereas box or drum mag capacity depends on the shell's circumference and the size of the magazine. If someone invented mini .223's that were half the length of a standard .223, an AR mag would still only hold the normal number. But in a tube mag, space savings in the length of the shell increases capacity, which depends entirely on the cartidge used, not the mag itself.

So the question you have to ask is, how many shells is your shotgun "capable of accepting"?

 

[Reptile]

Something that just occurred to me, a very interesting point. The law only specifies 5 shotgun shells, it doesn't specify five 2 3/4 inch 12 guage shells, etc.

So let's say you load up your shotgun with a bunch of those Aguila mini shotshells that are about half the size of a normal shell. Even if the tube only holds 5 rounds of 2 3/4 inch shells, it'll hold a lot more than that with those mini's.

But here's where it gets really interesting. Under Mass. law, a magazine is large capacity if it's "capable of accepting" more than 5 shotgun shells. A shotgun tube that will only hold 4 normal sized shells will hold 1.5 or 2 times as many of the mini's.

Tube mag capacity depends on the length of the tube and the length of the shell, whereas box or drum mag capacity depends on the shell's circumference and the size of the magazine. If someone invented mini .223's that were half the length of a standard .223, an AR mag would still only hold the normal number. But in a tube mag, space savings in the length of the shell increases capacity, which depends entirely on the cartidge used, not the mag itself.

So the question you have to ask is, how many shells is your shotgun "capable of accepting"?

Smart allack....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2xMGI-QpZw

 

[GSG]

Not really, it's a legitimate issue.

 

[Romeosierra616]

Pistol grips are most definitely not illegal, not on pump shotguns at least, I'm sure its different for Semi-Autos though lol.

*EDIT: I mean Semi-Auto Shotguns*

 

[DoubleDoeHoe]

So after reading this.... purchasing a Saiga 12 and have a pistol grip with fixed stock wouldn't be legal? Are there pre-ban mags for a Saiga-12?.., Interesting I like the semi auto more than the pump but I was not aware of the illegal to be a pistol grip aspect of it...

 

[DickWanner]

So after reading this.... purchasing a Saiga 12 and have a pistol grip with fixed stock wouldn't be legal? Are there pre-ban mags for a Saiga-12?.., Interesting I like the semi auto more than the pump but I was not aware of the illegal to be a pistol grip aspect of it...

I believe they were imported after the ban, but if there were any pre-bans they would be in the form of the factory 8rd magazines. The pistol grip only becomes illegal when you have a detachable magazine, the Benelli M4 w/ pistol grip is completely legal if the tube holds 5 or less.

 

[GSG]

I understand that a pump gun cannot be a "large capacity weapon". What I don't understand is why the 8 shot tube is not a "large capacity feeding device".

Something that just occurred to me.

If you have a pre-ban Glock 17 magazine, you can throw on a +2 extension without violating the law, because the federal standard was that the mag body was the part that had to be pre-ban. Following that same logic, the mag tube on the shotgun is the part that must be pre-ban; an extension should be legal if the original part is as well.

Although, unlike detachable mags, a shotgun tube mag is two parts, which makes you wonder which half would tip the scales? It's all a guessing game since none of this is defined anywhere.

What a nightmare.

 

[atmay]

Something that just occurred to me.

If you have a pre-ban Glock 17 magazine, you can throw on a +2 extension without violating the law, because the federal standard was that the mag body was the part that had to be pre-ban. Following that same logic, the mag tube on the shotgun is the part that must be pre-ban; an extension should be legal if the original part is as well.

Although, unlike detachable mags, a shotgun tube mag is two parts, which makes you wonder which half would tip the scales? It's all a guessing game since none of this is defined anywhere.

What a nightmare.

See, I told you that was the real question

 

[atmay]

Something I just thought of:

Since pumps are, by definition, incapable of being large capacity....can their non-detachable magazines be considered large capacity?


Obviously, in the case of something like the Rem M7605 (pump action rifle that takes AR mags), possession of the rifle should be fine with any license, as long as you don't possess LC AR mags without an LTC.


But what if you had a bolt-action rifle with an internal, non detachable 11 round magazine?

 

[exo]

Pump-action shotguns that come with factory tube extensions are sold all over the state. I'm not trying to downplay anyone's investigative work into the convoluted MGLs, but this sounds like an awfully novel interpretation of what would otherwise seem like a settled issue.

 

[jar]

Pump-action shotguns that come with factory tube extensions are sold all over the state. I'm not trying to downplay anyone's investigative work into the convoluted MGLs, but this sounds like an awfully novel interpretation of what would otherwise seem like a settled issue.

I agree with you, but the settled interpretation seems to disagree with the letter of the law. I got in to researching it because I want a semi-auto with an extended tube for 3 gun. I was trying to find a way to justify the legality of that based on the fact that extended tube pumps are sold all over. I wanted to generalize that to autos, but it seems to go the other way.

 

[not new guy]

I agree with you, but the settled interpretation seems to disagree with the letter of the law. I got in to researching it because I want a semi-auto with an extended tube for 3 gun. I was trying to find a way to justify the legality of that based on the fact that extended tube pumps are sold all over. I wanted to generalize that to autos, but it seems to go the other way.

I'd be interested in the correct response to this too. I have my eye on a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip and stock. I believe it's factory-set to hold more than 5, so it sounds like any sort of extension could be an issue under the strict letter of the law.