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Shotgun Capacity/Questiions in Massachusetts
- Thread starter Tips88
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DickWanner
Banned
![[thinking]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/010.gif "Thinking [thinking]")
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Getting back to the Saiga-12. It has a pistol grip AND a detachable magazine - how is that legal per the definitions listed before?
A really interesting data point. Does anybody have a copy of Glidden's book? What does he say on the subject?
Glidden doesn't seem to touch this issue. All I found was a Q and A thing about pump action shotguns, which basically displays the prevailing attitude that pump action shotguns are immune from capacity restrictions.
A note for GSG- BTW, Glidden seems to state that a magazine tube extension on a pump is NOT an ammunition feeding device, and rather that it is only a metal tube, because it is incapable of holding shells when it is detached from the shotgun. I'm obviously paraphrasing here, but you get the drift...
So apparently, Glidden seems to support this nostrum that pumps are completely exempt. He doesn't say anything about semis, though, which more or less leaves us guessing.
-Mike
DickWanner
Banned
If the state interperts it like Glidden does then the extension doesn't count and if the standard tube is 5 or less then it's not a LCFD/post-ban LCFD. I can't see the AG wanting to mess with this particular Charlie-Foxtrot though...
DickWanner
Banned
Well, the firearm would not be seen as a large capacity gun, but the fixed-box magazine would be seen as a LCFD and would need to be pre-ban and the owner would need the proper license (LTC-A/B). That is the technical end, the other part to the equation is whether or not anyone would ever try to prosecute this as such. My guess is no as it's all just too murky and could lead to some case law that might possibly affect way too much to be worth the prosectution.
Yes.
Yes, but to be nitpicky, a Restricted FID or a Machine Gun License wouldn't cover that gun, so technically not "any" license.
The gun wouldn't be large capacity, but the magazine would.
The Mass. gun laws are routinely broken by people at every level, from FFL's to Fudd hunters to LEO's to tacticool LTC holders.
The short answer? No one knows. In Mass. people guess by following the old federal standard.
Appreciate the info, but I wouldn't bet my gunrights against that opinion.
Another question is: Will this be used for hunting?
The answer maybe 3. Thou sall not count 4. Three shall be the number to be counted......
Check the link or read below: http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/regulations/plain_language/hunting_shotguns.htm
Hunting with Shotguns and Shotshell Cartridges
It is lawful to hunt birds and mammals in Massachusetts with a shotgun of 10 gauge and smaller, and with any magazine capacity, EXCEPT:
1. The hunting of migratory game birds with a shotgun, the magazine of which has not been cut off or plugged with a 1-piece filler incapable of removal without disassembling the gun so as to reduce the capacity of the shotgun to not more than three cartridges at one time in the chamber and magazine combined, is PROHIBITED.
2. The use or possession of shotgun cartridges loaded with a rifled slug, single ball, buckshot of any size, air rifle shot, BB shot, or any other shot larger than #1 birdshot is PROHIBITED except: (a) on a target range during daylight hours, (b) for the hunting of deer during the period when it is lawful to hunt deer with a firearm, and (c) for the hunting of waterfowl, American coot, or coyote using B, BB, BBB, F, FF, T, or TT shot during the periods when it is lawful to hunt those species.
3. The use or possession of shotgun cartridges loaded with shot other than non-toxic shot is PROHIBITED for the hunting of waterfowl and American coot. Check the annual “Migratory Game Bird Abstracts” for the non-toxic shot types currently approved by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
4. The above prohibitions and restrictions also pertain to the use of muzzle-loading (smoothbore) shotguns, and the shot sizes which are allowed for use in them.
5. Check the firearms statutes pursuant to M.G.L. c. 140 and c. 269 for laws regarding the possession, carrying, and use of semiautomatic or other "large capacity" shotguns and feeding devices.
This is not the complete law and is subject to change. Refer to provisions of M.G.L. c. 131, § 66 and to several provision of the Code of Massachusetts Regulations, 321 CMR.
The answer maybe 3. Thou sall not count 4. Three shall be the number to be counted......
Check the link or read below: http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/regulations/plain_language/hunting_shotguns.htm
Hunting with Shotguns and Shotshell Cartridges
It is lawful to hunt birds and mammals in Massachusetts with a shotgun of 10 gauge and smaller, and with any magazine capacity, EXCEPT:
1. The hunting of migratory game birds with a shotgun, the magazine of which has not been cut off or plugged with a 1-piece filler incapable of removal without disassembling the gun so as to reduce the capacity of the shotgun to not more than three cartridges at one time in the chamber and magazine combined, is PROHIBITED.
2. The use or possession of shotgun cartridges loaded with a rifled slug, single ball, buckshot of any size, air rifle shot, BB shot, or any other shot larger than #1 birdshot is PROHIBITED except: (a) on a target range during daylight hours, (b) for the hunting of deer during the period when it is lawful to hunt deer with a firearm, and (c) for the hunting of waterfowl, American coot, or coyote using B, BB, BBB, F, FF, T, or TT shot during the periods when it is lawful to hunt those species.
3. The use or possession of shotgun cartridges loaded with shot other than non-toxic shot is PROHIBITED for the hunting of waterfowl and American coot. Check the annual “Migratory Game Bird Abstracts” for the non-toxic shot types currently approved by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
4. The above prohibitions and restrictions also pertain to the use of muzzle-loading (smoothbore) shotguns, and the shot sizes which are allowed for use in them.
5. Check the firearms statutes pursuant to M.G.L. c. 140 and c. 269 for laws regarding the possession, carrying, and use of semiautomatic or other "large capacity" shotguns and feeding devices.
This is not the complete law and is subject to change. Refer to provisions of M.G.L. c. 131, § 66 and to several provision of the Code of Massachusetts Regulations, 321 CMR.
cmacclel
NES Member
Does it have a pistol grip??? if so then yes it would be Illegal in MA. The question I have is there such thing as a pre-ban Shotgun? If I had a 20 year old 1100 model would it be exempt like an AR would be?
Mac
DickWanner
Banned
The shotgun would have to have been in AWB-configuration prior to the ban to be considered a "pre-ban".
Thanks for posting this thread! I recently came up with the same question and was confused by seeing the guns available for sale vs. how the laws read. Rather than 3-gun, my question is related to having a pump home defender with tube extension. What I'm taking away from this is:
- pump shotgun cannot be a large capacity weapon
- pump shotgun cannot be an assault weapon
but.....
- a post-ban tube extension may or may not be considered an illegal large capacity feeding devise
- possession of a post-ban pump shotgun capable of holding more than 5 rounds may or may not be a felony
- the pump shotguns on dealer shelves with >5 round capacity may be illegal
This would be a gun for personal defense in the home. As a safe queen, no would ever know or question. If/when its ever used for its intended purpose, it would face some scrutiny. The notion that someone probably wouldn't try to prosecute isn't very settling. Sounds like a "standard" Rem 870 is the safest best and admittedly, just as effective.
- pump shotgun cannot be a large capacity weapon
- pump shotgun cannot be an assault weapon
but.....
- a post-ban tube extension may or may not be considered an illegal large capacity feeding devise
- possession of a post-ban pump shotgun capable of holding more than 5 rounds may or may not be a felony
- the pump shotguns on dealer shelves with >5 round capacity may be illegal
This would be a gun for personal defense in the home. As a safe queen, no would ever know or question. If/when its ever used for its intended purpose, it would face some scrutiny. The notion that someone probably wouldn't try to prosecute isn't very settling. Sounds like a "standard" Rem 870 is the safest best and admittedly, just as effective.
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cmacclel
NES Member
Pump guns are exempt.....you can do what ever you would like other than shorten the barrel to under 18". Folding stock, extrended magazine tube, pistol grip, all does not matter on a *Pump*.
Mac
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The point everyone has been trying to make in this thread is that what you just said is NOT necessarily true. While the pump shotgun itself cannot be a large-capacity firearm, having a magazine extension manufactured after 9/94 MAY be construed as possession of a post-ban LCFD.
I don't know your level of knowledge wrt MA gun laws, but well-educated people on MA gun laws are NOT so sure about the extended mag tube . . . even on a pump shotgun. I include myself in that category, and would not pronounce it "OK" and would suggest caution.
Your other points are valid . . . it's just the "large capacity feeding device" (which is a separate part of the law) that is at issue here (maybe).
MisterHappy
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Just because it hasn't been ruled "bad" yet, does not mean that it won't be.....this is the PRM after all! ![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
cmacclel
NES Member
I agree.......MGL plain old suck.....thats why I have a pre-ban SPAS-12.........
Folding Stock...Pistol Grip.....Semi-Auto....Pump and high capacity!Mac
That's the prevailing wisdom, but zuren's post accurately summarizes the law.
cmacclel
NES Member
I have seen high capacity pump guns on dealers shelves for years. You can interperate the laws any way you wish but if all the local FFL dealers have sold them for years without getting in trouble I *guess* thats good enough for me. To each there own.
Mac
Mac
![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
It shouldn't be. There are dealers in MA that will sell you a post ban magazine or post-ban assault weapon without blinking an eye.
Good luck getting a "100 % clean" answer on this. The on the ground wisdom has always indicated that pumps were exempt from this capacity BS. IMHO the truly paranoid should call a competent gun lawyer.
-Mike
-Mike
Yeah, but there are far more that will sell you pump shotguns that hold more than 5 rounds in the tube.
ETA:
I think nobody cared about it because nobody ever really asked the question. It was always just assumed that pumps were exempt.
-Mike
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Unfortunately, it may end up being the guy who is the loving husband, nurturing father and good neighbor who gets to find out how this would be prosecuted when a rapist/murder/tweeker comes through the door and he takes the scumbag's head off. The rest of the country would say good riddance to a worthless POS. It would be the MA AG that would turn the home owner into the criminal.
I want to believe that MA wouldn't pursue anything but I think that is giving them too much credit. I guess I'm in the paranoid camp. I'm pretty sure that if it did become an issue, the association of firearm dealers for MA are not going to come running to fund your defense since they've always sold them.
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