Shooting reported outside Empire State Building

If my friend and I walking down the street have a man pull a gun on us and we both draw down and shoot 9 innocent people and kill that man, do we not get a free pass to prison? Hell, If it were even two bad guys and they had just executed a shopper while robbing a conveinence store and I managed to shoot one and overpenetrate, killing the girl behind the counter, I'd still get sent to prison.

Shouldn't be any different because your wearing a badge. If you draw your gun from any distance and miss 90% of your shots on target and there's an innocent living backstop behind it, you absolutely should be sent straight to PMITA prison. The bad guy didn't even fire on them...
 
partyboy424 said:
If my friend and I walking down the street have a man pull a gun on us and we both draw down and shoot 9 innocent people and kill that man, do we not get a free pass to prison? Hell, If it were even two bad guys and they had just executed a shopper while robbing a conveinence store and I managed to shoot one and overpenetrate, killing the girl behind the counter, I'd still get sent to prison.

Shouldn't be any different because your wearing a badge. If you draw your gun from any distance and miss 90% of your shots on target and there's an innocent living backstop behind it, you absolutely should be sent straight to PMITA prison. The bad guy didn't even fire on them...
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Sure. See the recent discussion in the Colorado shooting.

Some suggested even with a CCW they would be nervous to use it because in that setting they would be likely to hurt innocents as well and would certainly go to jail for it.
 
namedpipes said:
Sure. See the recent discussion in the Colorado shooting.

Some suggested even with a CCW they would be nervous to use it because in that setting they would be likely to hurt innocents as well and would certainly go to jail for it.
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And then the cops would shoot you as soon as they showed up if you still had the gun out, and believe me, you'd then be the second shooter, not an armed citizen trying to stop the bad guy.
 
What makes everyone think that the shooter would not have hit bystanders if he started shooting at the 2 cops?
What you going to do, take one for the team?
I think I am done with this thread.
 
Seamsealer said:
What makes everyone think that the shooter would not have hit bystanders if he started shooting at the 2 cops?
What you going to do, take one for the team?
I think I am done with this thread.
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Shooter=1
Police = 10
Atleast based on what he had reported left in the mag he would have hit 7 less.
 
Seamsealer said:
What makes everyone think that the shooter would not have hit bystanders if he started shooting at the 2 cops?
What you going to do, take one for the team? ...
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Bottom line is these officers emptied their mags in the direction of the shooter and no less than 8 innocents.

That was stupid.
 
Seamsealer said:
What you going to do, take one for the team?
I think I am done with this thread.
Click to expand...

You know why we all worship NYPD and NYFD? Three numbers: 343 -23 - 9/11. Yeah, I went there. These brave men and women sacrificed their lives to save thousands of other people. It was the ultimate act of bravery, and a demonstration that yeah, when it comes down to it, these people really are here to protect us, and they put our safety before their own. What happened here is the exact opposite of that.

Maybe getting shot isn't the most glamorous way to safeguard the public, but by your standards, all those cops and firefighters at the WTC should have stood outside and watched the buildings collapse rather than put themselves at unacceptable risk to save a bunch of civilians.
 
When I was in the .mil, if I ever got into a shoot out and hosed a bunch of civilians, I would of been on the 1st plane to Germany for a stay in Military Prison.

I'm pretty sure the justification to throw me in jail would be "gross negligence."
 
Rider said:
What do you take offense to? The fact that people here are calling out the obvious fact that the police should not have fired at the bad guy knowing there was a huge number of innocent bystanders right behind him? Sure, most of us haven't been in that situation, but one of the first things they teach you in any shooting class is that you know what is behind your target and you don't shoot if you can't make the shot. I would hope that most cops understand that if their backdrop is a crowd of people, shooting is not an acceptable situation, or at least dumping a whole magazine is inappropriate.

The police could have backed away, they could have tried to calm the guy down, but instead they immediately escalated the situation, and shot 8 bystanders, making this situation far worse than it would have been otherwise. If the police didn't show up at all, the bad guy goes home, the police arrest him later, no one else is hurt. Instead, they chose to engage the bad guy in an extremely crowded area, and apparently didn't take into consideration the welfare of the people around them.

At my club, we have this sign posted at every firing line. It says something about being responsible for every single bullet that comes out of your gun.

Or are you being sarcastic?
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I agree with this completely, and is the most logical point made in the first 18 pages of this thread! Worse case scenario, they would have had to put out an APB, or something, but they already knew who the perp was, so finding him later would have been a fairly simple task. They can cite that he was armed, and dangerous, but it appeared that he wasn't looking to pull a mass shooting, he had 1 intended target, and he accomplished his goal. I doubt he would have even pulled his gun out again after the shooting if the police hadn't have confronted him, so all of the innocent victims are the fault of the police - period (with the exception of the perp's intended target, of course)!
 
Seamsealer said:
When I was in the military, I prayed there were never any friendly fire on us. It did happen though.
OK, they should have let the guy pull the gun and shoot some more, that makes sense. It's nice to learn about back ground and who is behind the shot, but when your butt is on the line, you do what you have to do or become a victim.
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Dude, this not sound logic. What would have happened if the police hadn't cornered the guy? Do you still think he would have pulled his weapon? Very doubful. He was looking to get out of Dodge as quickly as possible, not looking for a shootout. Even if the police surrounded him in some building later, or his home, they could have been in control of the situation at that point, and cleared the area. This whole situation was poor judgement on their part, their butt wouldn't have been on the line as you say, if they had not decided to corner an obviously armed man in the middle of a busy, city street.
 
Terminator03 said:
Dude, this not sound logic. What would have happened if the police hadn't cornered the guy? Do you still think he would have pulled his weapon? Very doubful. He was looking to get out of Dodge as quickly as possible, not looking for a shootout. Even if the police surrounded him in some building later, or his home, they could have been in control of the situation at that point, and cleared the area. This whole situation was poor judgement on their part, their butt wouldn't have been on the line as you say, if they had not decided to corner an obviously armed man in the middle of a busy, city street.
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Just watch COPS on a Saturday night. Even with a camera rolling, they won't cut you any slack if you don't listen to them and their instructions.
And I'm not your Dude.[hmmm][hmmm]
 
namedpipes said:
Dude. You're comparing an episode of "Cops" with two of NY's finest mowing down 8 bystanders?
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Here we go. I can just hear the cops with their automatic machine gun pistols, saying to each other, if this guy pulls a gun, how many bystanders can we mow down?

By the way, not your Dude either.
 
Seamsealer said:
Here we go. I can just hear the cops with their automatic machine gun pistols, saying to each other, if this guy pulls a gun, how many bystanders can we mow down?
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I don't think anyone here is saying they did it intentionally. They did it because they were negligent.

They were going to stop that guy at all costs. That's the issue.
 
Terminator03 said:
This whole situation was poor judgement on their part, their butt wouldn't have been on the line as you say, if they had not decided to corner an obviously armed man in the middle of a busy, city street.
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The only slack I give the responding officers is that from watching the video, which I really didn't want to do because I am not into snuff films, is that they don't seem to know who the perp is until they almost ran into him. I had to watch it twice before I realized that the closer cop appeared to be backing away so he could draw and aim. I sort of wonder why he didn't just tackle the guy.
 
Seamsealer said:
Here we go. I can just hear the cops with their automatic machine gun pistols, saying to each other, if this guy pulls a gun, how many bystanders can we mow down?

By the way, not your Dude either.
Click to expand...

What are you going to dood? Shoot me and everyone behind me?


What is the first thing you were taught when you learned to shoot (as a civilian)?

Safe direction.

Know your target and what is beyond it.

We all get that police can't choose the circumstances but they can damned well ADAPT to the circumstances they are faced with.
 
So, we support RKBA, believing that each person has the human right to use deadly force when we or our loved one are threatened with death or grave bodily harm... and we hope not to hit innocent bystanders, but it's an acceptable risk (even in a dark, crowded, panic-filled theater) when it comes down to my life and/or the lives of my loved ones vs a bad guy.

I think there's a general consensus on this board in favor of the above statement, (can I get an "amen, brutha!"?)

So the police know a man with gun is on the street, has killed one guy, and may be about to up the count. They pursue and see the muzzle of a gun turning their direction in close quarters. Is there anyone here who CCWs who wouldn't have drawn their weapon firing if put in the officers shoes? I know I would have. It's the survival instinct coupled with training and available tools.

The officers will have to live with the results of their shooting... Possibly the result of poor marksmanship training, but aside from remedial weapons training, I don't believe they should be punished.

The real investigation and action plan should be focused on combat marksmanship training. I would expect whoever is in charge of that at NYPD should feel the heat, or better, tender his/her resignation in favor of someone with an improvement plan.

Guess I missed the call from them asking for my advice...
 
Last edited:
30Mauser said:
. . . So the police know a man with gun is on the street, has killed one guy, and may be about to up the count. They pursue and see the muzzle of a gun turning their direction in close quarters. Is there anyone here who CCWs who wouldn't have drawn their weapon firing if put in the officers shoes? . . .
Click to expand...

I have no issue with the police shooting the bad guy. I can also understand that not every scenario is going to fall in line with training.

But discharging 16 rounds on a crowded street is a panic reaction, not a trained reaction.
 
30Mauser said:
So, we support RKBA, believing that each person has the human right to use deadly force when we or our loved one are threatened with death or grave bodily harm... and we hope not to hit innocent bystanders, but it's an acceptable risk (even in a dark, crowded, panic-filled theater) when it comes down to my life and/or the lives of my loved ones vs a bad guy.

I think there's a general consensus on this board in favor of the above statement, (can I get an "amen, brutha!"?)

So the police know a man with gun is on the street, has killed one guy, and may be about to up the count. They pursue and see the muzzle of a gun turning their direction in close quarters. Is there anyone here who CCWs who wouldn't have drawn their weapon firing if put in the officers shoes? I know I would have. It's the survival instinct coupled with training and available tools.

The officers will have to live with the results of their shooting... Possibly the result of poor marksmanship training, but aside from remedial weapons training, I don't believe they should be punished.

The real investigation and action plan should be focused on combat marksmanship training. I would expect whoever is in charge of that at NYPD should feel the heat, or better, tender his/her resignation in favor of someone with an improvement plan.

Guess I missed the call from them asking for my advice...
Click to expand...

They should be fired. I don't view that as punishment. It's more "you suck at your job. we won't be needing your services".
 
Martlet said:
They should be fired. I don't view that as punishment. It's more "you suck at your job. we won't be needing your services".
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Si si si.

The officers in the video showed no training at all. The one handed trick shots with the 12lbs trigger pull resulted in significant collateral damage.
 
Well my original post was in defense of the offices involved. Watching that video and I am left baffled. I understand that not all LE and people who carry shoot as much as I do which is at least 3 times a week. I practice a lot of situations and firing right handed..left handed with 1 hand etc.

The thing that strikes me was niether officer had his weapon out while approching this guy..(from what I could see) and both had to draw. This to me is the worst mistake of all because it caused a reaction versus control.At the range they were at there is no way that they should have needed to fire and miss. At 15 ft I cannot fathom missing that many times.
 
30Mauser said:
So, we support RKBA, believing that each person has the human right to use deadly force when we or our loved one are threatened with death or grave bodily harm... and we hope not to hit innocent bystanders, but it's an acceptable risk (even in a dark, crowded, panic-filled theater) when it comes down to my life and/or the lives of my loved ones vs a bad guy.

I think there's a general consensus on this board in favor of the above statement, (can I get an "amen, brutha!"?)

So the police know a man with gun is on the street, has killed one guy, and may be about to up the count. They pursue and see the muzzle of a gun turning their direction in close quarters. Is there anyone here who CCWs who wouldn't have drawn their weapon firing if put in the officers shoes? I know I would have. It's the survival instinct coupled with training and available tools.

The officers will have to live with the results of their shooting... Possibly the result of poor marksmanship training, but aside from remedial weapons training, I don't believe they should be punished.

The real investigation and action plan should be focused on combat marksmanship training. I would expect whoever is in charge of that at NYPD should feel the heat, or better, tender his/her resignation in favor of someone with an improvement plan.

Guess I missed the call from them asking for my advice...
Click to expand...

The issue isn't them deciding to shoot. The issue is they were responding to shots fired looking for an armed suspect and 1) didn't have their guns already drawn and 2) Were poor marksmen.

Just ask yourself what would happen if you shot 8 innocent people to kill a murder. Would you get off scot free? No. Would the healines read "brave civilian stops murder in shoot out"? No.

That's the issue. They're clearly negligent and the media makes it sound like the guy mowed down the civilians in an OK Coral shoot out, which is not what happened.
 
xtry51 said:
The issue isn't them deciding to shoot. The issue is they were responding to shots fired looking for an armed suspect and 1) didn't have their guns already drawn and 2) Were poor marksmen.

.
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This.

If they had guns drawn and ready it is a easier shot versus drawing and aquiring the target. If they had guns drawn and at the ready once the bad guy pulled they would have had a more controlled shooting target . Hindsight is 20/20 but if I am a cop and I hear shots fired and have a active shooter you canbet I am going to have my weapon drawn.
 

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