Shooting reported outside Empire State Building

[atilla]

the fact of the matter is that the police did more damage than the shooter save for the boss who was his intended target. it is not acceptable for the cops to shoot civilians. the video and their reactions remind me of something i heard once about two monkeys and a football, i'm sure you know the rest.

 

[xtry51]

If you shoot from that distance every round should hit the target.

Also if you're a cop I expect you to put your life on the line for others. If that means you hold fire, rather than shoot into a crowd, that's what I expect you to do. Otherwise don't be a cop. "Protect and Serve" not "Endanger and Cause Collateral Damage".

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

so the Anti's are always saying only police should have guns because us gun owners would likely just shoot innocent people in the crossfire.................... whoa this kind of throws a wrench into their argument doesnt it.

 

[krallstar]

looked like the guy wanted to die. It looks like he has the gun in his hand and just walking towards those cops. After he shot his old boss reality set in. Probably realized he was gonna go away forever and chose the easy way out.

 

[atilla]

looked like the guy wanted to die. It looks like he has the gun in his hand and just walking towards those cops. After he shot his old boss reality set in. Probably realized he was gonna go away forever and chose the easy way out.

that or he was heading off to a nice park bench somewhere to taste the business end of that sig it looked like he had.

 

[NetDoc]

As people have noted, several articles say that there was "at least one round left in the magazine," leaving several rounds unaccounted for. I am guessing that the press surmised or were told this because the 1911 had the slide fully forward and the hammer fully cocked (as opposed to how the slide would look after firing the last round). This would be obvious immediately, but wouldn't indicate how many rounds were left.

 

[caboose84]

Hard to completely miss at 8' distance. Easy for bullets to pass through perp. What is NYPD carry round?

Not sure of the ammo, but from wikipedia-

New NYPD officers are allowed to select one of three 9mm service pistols configured in double-action only (DAO): the SIG P226 DAO, Smith & Wesson Model 5946, and Glock 19.[28] All are modified to a 12-pound (53 N) trigger pull.[29] Prior to 1994 the standard weapon of the NYPD was the Smith and Wesson Model 64 DAO (Double Action Only) .38 Special Revolver with three or four inch barrels. This type of revolver was called the Model NY-1 by the department. From 1926 until 1986 the standard weapons of the department were the Smith and Wesson Model 10 and the Colt Official Police .38 Special Revolvers with four inch barrels. Prior to the issuing of the 9mm semiautomatic pistol NYPD Detectives and plain clothes officers often carried the Colt Detective Special and/or the Smith & Wesson Model 36 "Chief's Special" .38 Special caliber snub-nosed (2-inch) barrel revolvers for their easiness to conceal while dressed in civilian clothes. Officers who were issued revolvers prior to the transition to semi-automatic pistols on January 1, 1994, are "grandfathered" and if so can choose to continue to carry a revolver as a duty weapon.

Several friends from college are now retired NYPD, when they got the option to changeover to a semi they all opted for the Glock (had to buy their own, since they were already issued the revolver). When they had 38's the city issued round nose, pretty sure they got ball ammo for the 9.

 

[Sweeney]

As people have noted, several articles say that there was "at least one round left in the magazine," leaving several rounds unaccounted for. I am guessing that the press surmised or were told this because the 1911 had the slide fully forward and the hammer fully cocked (as opposed to how the slide would look after firing the last round). This would be obvious immediately, but wouldn't indicate how many rounds were left.

Or if the magazine was full to begin with... no one knows.

 

[xtry51]

12lb trigger? Sweet Jesus. No wonder they can't hit anything.

 

[Palladin]

Not sure of the ammo, but from wikipedia-

New NYPD officers are allowed to select one of three 9mm service pistols configured in double-action only (DAO): the SIG P226 DAO, Smith & Wesson Model 5946, and Glock 19.[28] All are modified to a 12-pound (53 N) trigger pull.[29] Prior to 1994 the standard weapon of the NYPD was the Smith and Wesson Model 64 DAO (Double Action Only) .38 Special Revolver with three or four inch barrels. This type of revolver was called the Model NY-1 by the department. From 1926 until 1986 the standard weapons of the department were the Smith and Wesson Model 10 and the Colt Official Police .38 Special Revolvers with four inch barrels. Prior to the issuing of the 9mm semiautomatic pistol NYPD Detectives and plain clothes officers often carried the Colt Detective Special and/or the Smith & Wesson Model 36 "Chief's Special" .38 Special caliber snub-nosed (2-inch) barrel revolvers for their easiness to conceal while dressed in civilian clothes. Officers who were issued revolvers prior to the transition to semi-automatic pistols on January 1, 1994, are "grandfathered" and if so can choose to continue to carry a revolver as a duty weapon.

Several friends from college are now retired NYPD, when they got the option to changeover to a semi they all opted for the Glock (had to buy their own, since they were already issued the revolver). When they had 38's the city issued round nose, pretty sure they got ball ammo for the 9.

firing 8 rounds with a NY trigger on a Glock??? Their fingers must hurt today!

 

[terraformer]

My understanding most of the NYPD uses ball ammo still. But in the last few years movement towards JHP seemed imminent. I am betting the AAR on this one pushes them over the cliff if any of the rounds are found to have over penetrated.

 

[Supermoto]

The City needs to be held liable for this mass shooting. NYC has done everything possible short of blindfolds to insure the officers will not hit the intended target. Next to no training and a trigger weight so heavy, its only purpose is to prevent cops from AD'ing in the station.

 

[xtry51]

My understanding most of the NYPD uses ball ammo still. But in the last few years movement towards JHP seemed imminent. I am betting the AAR on this one pushes them over the cliff if any of the rounds are found to have over penetrated.

I don't think overpenetration is an issue so much as them not knowing what's behind the target. Carrying JHP does not remove the necessity to watch whats beyond your target. Also they didn't hit with every shot, so JHP may actually increase the damage to bystanders when rounds hit them, rather than lessening it.

 

[gene]

I don't think overpenetration is an issue so much as them not knowing what's behind the target. Carrying JHP does not remove the necessity to watch whats beyond your target. Also they didn't hit with every shot, so JHP may actually increase the damage to bystanders when rounds hit them, rather than lessening it.

This!
I would rather be on target with a .22 than off the target with a .50

 

[xtry51]

Zero Hedge picked it up

Was The NYPD Responsible For 10 Of The 11 People Shot Yesterday?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/was-nypd-responsible-10-11-people-shot-yesterday

 

[Terrence]

Noob question, but why the requirement for DAO service pistols?

 

[hpm]

[video]http://nyti.ms/R8O4UK[/video]

There might be some facts I don't know...so I won't judge this woman, but this looks like an adult (the mother?) that left a kid behind while running for cover...

At first they were walking together, when the shooting starts the woman ran to the right, leaving the kid behind...

 

[StevieP]

Speer advertises that nypd uses gold dot.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[xtry51]

There might be some facts I don't know...so I won't judge this woman, but this looks like an adult (the mother?) that left a kid behind while running for cover...

At first they were walking together, when the shooting starts the woman ran to the right, leaving the kid behind...

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. The big city mentality anywhere you go is ignore everyone but yourself.

 

[xtry51]

The CNN article is ****ing painful. I'm sure the sheep are eating it up too.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/new-york-empire-state/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Building after he shot and killed a co-worker and engaged in a gunbattle with two officers, authorities said.

Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."

****ing flower pots? Are we sure it wasn't pieces of sunshine, lollipops or rainbows?

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

CNN has it confirmed, all 9 wounded were shot by the Police, now how true is that who knows, it is CNN, but wow

 

[ColdDayInHell]

The CNN article is ****ing painful. I'm sure the sheep are eating it up too.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/justice/new-york-empire-state/index.html?hpt=hp_t1




****ing flower pots? Are we sure it wasn't pieces of sunshine, lollipops or rainbows?

SMH.

 

[ColdDayInHell]

Instead of the police/military tactic of the double tap, they now have changed it to an octagonal tap.

 

[center442]

I take offense to all of the police bashers in here. The policemen in this situation was in a complete no win situation.

I am disgusted by some of the comments regarding thier actions, Most of us have never had to react in 30 seconds and choose to deliver fatal wounds to a crazed madman. I am pretty sure the NYP officers involved in this incident feel terrible about it.

I don't fault the cops for firing. If someone pointed a gun at me in that situation, I would fire. I expect any armed citizen would. The thing is, I hear all the time from gun grabbers that only trained professionals should be allowed to carry guns. Allowing untrained, unprofessional, ordinary citizens to carry guns is simply too dangerous. I'm having a hard time with that argument in light of this shooting.

If all of those collateral injuries were caused by rounds that penetrated the perp, I can absolve the cops, but then the NYPD officials need to take a close look at the ammo that is being issued because it is not suitable for use in an urban environment. The early reports I'm reading indicate that many of the rounds missed the intended target completely.

When was the last time that we heard of an untrained, unprofessional, ordinary civilian who caused that kind of collateral damage in a self-defense situation? In reality, this was nothing more or less than a self-defense situation. A guy drew down on two people who happened to be wearing uniforms and they returned fire. If anything, the cops should fare better than an ordinary civilian. They should have the mental and physical preparation to deal with the situation since they're the ones that NYC gives the elevated privilege of carrying a sidearm.

I don't think I'm bashing cops. What I do bash is the notion that government employees with uniforms are entitled to carry tools that a regular citizen can't, and that those employees are more proficient at using those tools than the ordinary guy. It sure doesn't look that way so far.

 

[Boman]

What do you take offense to? The fact that people here are calling out the obvious fact that the police should not have fired at the bad guy knowing there was a huge number of innocent bystanders right behind him? Sure, most of us haven't been in that situation, but one of the first things they teach you in any shooting class is that you know what is behind your target and you don't shoot if you can't make the shot. I would hope that most cops understand that if their backdrop is a crowd of people, shooting is not an acceptable situation, or at least dumping a whole magazine is inappropriate.

The police could have backed away, they could have tried to calm the guy down, but instead they immediately escalated the situation, and shot 8 bystanders, making this situation far worse than it would have been otherwise. If the police didn't show up at all, the bad guy goes home, the police arrest him later, no one else is hurt. Instead, they chose to engage the bad guy in an extremely crowded area, and apparently didn't take into consideration the welfare of the people around them.

At my club, we have this sign posted at every firing line. It says something about being responsible for every single bullet that comes out of your gun.

Or are you being sarcastic?

I am not being sarcastic.

I also do not disagree that your target needs to be clear. 2 cops are walking a beat and a madman opens up on someone. Cops take a oath to serve and protect. I cannot imagine what must have been going through thier minds..guy has killed someone and is now pointing his weapon at them...What would you do? Open up even though you do not have a clear target picture? Standby and hope for one or move to get one? All of this happening in about 3-5 seconds.

Like I said the cops was in a no win situation.

- - - Updated - - -

I doubt you would feel the same if you called them and reported a robbery at your home if they came and shot the whole family incl your dog up along with the robber. More then likely you would have been saying they should have waited until they could minimize casualties and brought down the robber. My guess anyway!

WHat kind of comment is this? Do you have any common sense in your head?

 

[Boman]

I don't fault the cops for firing. If someone pointed a gun at me in that situation, I would fire. I expect any armed citizen would. The thing is, I hear all the time from gun grabbers that only trained professionals should be allowed to carry guns. Allowing untrained, unprofessional, ordinary citizens to carry guns is simply too dangerous. I'm having a hard time with that argument in light of this shooting.

If all of those collateral injuries were caused by rounds that penetrated the perp, I can absolve the cops, but then the NYPD officials need to take a close look at the ammo that is being issued because it is not suitable for use in an urban environment. The early reports I'm reading indicate that many of the rounds missed the intended target completely.

When was the last time that we heard of an untrained, unprofessional, ordinary civilian who caused that kind of collateral damage in a self-defense situation? In reality, this was nothing more or less than a self-defense situation. A guy drew down on two people who happened to be wearing uniforms and they returned fire. If anything, the cops should fare better than an ordinary civilian. They should have the mental and physical preparation to deal with the situation since they're the ones that NYC gives the elevated privilege of carrying a sidearm.

I don't think I'm bashing cops. What I do bash is the notion that government employees with uniforms are entitled to carry tools that a regular citizen can't, and that those employees are more proficient at using those tools than the ordinary guy. It sure doesn't look that way so far.

That is a fair assesment and one I can agree with.

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

I do fault ANYONE who cannot hit the side of a BARN at 10' period. That is DISGUSTING. The shooter was not even MOVING!!! Even my wife who dislikes firearms asked me why they would discharge their firearm when there were people beyond the target and there was a potential for collateral damage.

COPS FIRED 16 ROUNDS; EMPIRE STATE GUNMAN NEVER GOT OFF A SHOT IN 'SHOOTOUT'...
Golf clap. Good job. As long as the collateral damage is limited to less than a KIA, we are all set! Great JOB! Splendid work!!!
(And we are the ones like in RI who have to show we can hit paper and qualify before we can apply for a conceal carry) I am RANTING as the main stream media are ignoring the FACTS.
Bloomberg's maniacs shot up the place like the wild west and it will be covered up. I will *NEVER* go to NY City EVER again. You could not pay me enough...

Death Blossom Spray a hail of lead and pray one hits home. See a gun, crap your pants, and at 10' away let loose 18 rounds and cannot even hit center mass. Please, if anyone here cannot hit paper at 10', you need to evaluate your skills a bit. But as a LEO, you damn well better hit what you are shooting at...
If that was anyone on the board here, we would be STRUNG UP, weapons confiscated, IN JAIL, have a nice day.

Maybe they are carrying belly guns in the City and they really needed to be up close and personal, hence the hand cuffs?
One more point: I have a REAL problem with the Hercules team carrying full auto M16's. If they think a round from a .40 or .45 does some damage, what happens when those people throw down....
Please, the shooters effed this up.

 

[namedpipes]

I just told the story to my son and he shouts out: "I ain't no colloitoral damage! I'd SUE the guys!"

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

I take offense to all of the police bashers in here. The policemen in this situation was in a complete no win situation.

I am simply saying if you cannot hit paper at 10' while moving you have no business discharging a firearm on a crowded street. Know your target and what is behind.
If that was anyone else other than a LEO, your ass would be in a sling and you would never see a firearm in this state.

Seeing a threat and then making the decision to take that threat out does not give you the green light to go "postal".

 

[In_God_We_Trust]

I guess this is going to have to be standard issue in NYC if people agree this was a righteous shootout:
ProMAX Concealable Vest