S.2572: How should we hold cops accountable?

[Grendizer138]

Well?

For the record, I actively pleaded with everyone here to try to get their PDs to oppose the House bill, and I was pleasantly surprised when the MACOPA unanimously opposed it.

But now that Chief Gillis is supporting the Senate version and the chiefs and PDs are silent about it, I think they should be held accountable to the maximum extent legally possible.

I voted A&B, but if we’re getting nuanced I think any Department that comes out in opposition to the bill before it gets passed should be lauded and exempted.

 

[knucklehead]

its easy, civilly sue the police for infringements of rights.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Your state legislature is comprised of 236 Democrats and only 28 Republicans.
Your governor is a Democrat. Your attorney general is a Democrat. Your secretary of public safety is a democrat. Virtually every office with power is held by a Democrat.
Both of your US senators and all 9 of your US congressmen are Democrats.
Massachusetts leans so far left it gets lumped in with California, New York, and New Jersey in any conversation regarding guns.
What makes you think your police departments have any impact on anti-gun legislation?

 

[Grendizer138]

Your state legislature is comprised of 236 Democrats and only 28 Republicans.
Your governor is a Democrat. Your attorney general is a Democrat. Your secretary of public safety is a democrat. Virtually every office with power is held by a Democrat.
Both of your US senators and all 9 of your US congressmen are Democrats.
Massachusetts leans so far left it gets lumped in with California, New York, and New Jersey in any conversation regarding guns.
What makes you think your police departments have any impact on anti-gun legislation?

Is this for a for real comment? It’s pretty dumb.

 

[Mark from MA]

Your state legislature is comprised of 236 Democrats and only 28 Republicans.
Your governor is a Democrat. Your attorney general is a Democrat. Your secretary of public safety is a democrat. Virtually every office with power is held by a Democrat.
Both of your US senators and all 9 of your US congressmen are Democrats.
Massachusetts leans so far left it gets lumped in with California, New York, and New Jersey in any conversation regarding guns.
What makes you think your police departments have any impact on anti-gun legislation?

MA is composed of boot lickers, especially in the cities, where the voters are.

Especially the legislators.....they love the police here. Obviously....see the money and details they give them.

The Police Departments opinions hold some weight here for the media to use.

Why do you think that MACOPA guys face is everywhere regarding this gun bill?

That's why.

If MACOPA came out against this......there would be Crickets about it, as much as the media could stifle it they would.

It holds some weight....will it stop it...no.....but say MACOPA came out and said they wouldn't enforce it......BOOM! Those politicians would be dead in the water.

Never happen here.....MA cops are paid off with details, lavish pensions, and bennies. They will follow their masters unconstitutional whims for money.

Am I anti cop and think everyone of them will? I have plenty of good buddies that are Police. NO.

But they need to get their MACOPA leaders in check....and on board with the Constitution.

I mean when Sheriffs in other states jurisdictions tell their consitituents they will not enforce unconstitutional gun laws, do you think that the people in those
jurisdictions give a rats ass what the politicians do? Nope.

Take a big weight off of shoulders if the cops said NFW wouldn't it?

 

[Agnotology]

MCOPA does not represent every MCOP in MA.

Absolutely vote to not let Official Police Department training occur at your gun club. No more "rules for thee but not for me"

Do not discourage individual officers from being members and being treated as any member should be within their respective clubs. They're people, not a profession.

edit: MCOPA gives invites to every police chief, and the town/city/municipality/campus pays for membership. Call or shoot an email to your Chief of Police and ask them if they are a member, and if they are, if they support S2572.

 

[CATI]

For future consideration
When a group of tyrants support you do not prop them up. Do not say look, even these tyrants think this bill is wrong
When they flip because they get a carve out, your original support of the stance they took back fires and legitimized them
(The state AND they are just saying F the 14th amendment "equal protection under the laws" as well as the 2nd)

I won't type what I hope happens during enforcement

 

[Agnotology]

moving the reply over here to keep things copasthetic.

Have you met me? If not then how do you know if individual or groups of officers have or have not directly infringed on my rights to keep and bear arms (hint: they have)

But taking it a step up the chain - law enforcement is enforcement arm of the state therefore they are just as guilty as each member of the Great Court and the Governor along with the governor's office.

As individual private citizens, I harbor no ill will against the police but when they not only accept but rather endorse and promote carve outs in unconstitutional laws that create a superior class of citizenry for themselves then they as a group are to be shunned, ostracized and if necessary defunded from enforcement of infringements.

I can't know, because I have never met you nor the individual or groups of officers in question.

JFC enough already. He's the President and he speaks for the group. When HD 4420 came out the MCOPA came out against it. During public hearings the President was asked if he spoke for the group. Yes. He was then asked if the chiefs were unanimous in their opposition. Yes. Many here speculated that the opposition was due to the police not being exempt.

This time the MCOPA came out in favor of this abomination of a bill, the answers will be the same and it doesn't make a f*** bit of a difference if they're unanimous or not - the organization supports it now. That's all that matters. How hard is that to understand?

And lest you think I'm anti cop, I train regularly w/ two very close cop friends. Last night I assisted at a Women's Self-Defense seminar one of them gave at his PD, got a tour of the department and everything (was pretty cool). And my sister was a cop, there's a thread about all about that too. Yet I still seem to understand that cops are not our friend in this, despite my personal connections.

Now go shit up another thread.

It's not about being anti-cop or pro-cop, its about establishing who MCOPA actually represents, and not who they claim to represent.

Shoot an email to your Chief of Police and ask. Would it not be hilarious to get responses from the hill towns, Berkshire county, and see half the state doesn't even ascribe themselves to MCOPA?

 

[not new guy]

Does white knighting for law enforcement online get you some sort of get out of jail card? Maybe one of those stickers for your car's window?

 

[Wickedcoolname]

MA is composed of boot lickers, especially in the cities, where the voters are.

Especially the legislators.....they love the police here. Obviously....see the money and details they give them.

The Police Departments opinions hold some weight here for the media to use.

Why do you think that MACOPA guys face is everywhere regarding this gun bill?

That's why.

If MACOPA came out against this......there would be Crickets about it, as much as the media could stifle it they would.

It holds some weight....will it stop it...no.....but say MACOPA came out and said they wouldn't enforce it......BOOM! Those politicians would be dead in the water.

Never happen here.....MA cops are paid off with details, lavish pensions, and bennies. They will follow their masters unconstitutional whims for money.

Am I anti cop and think everyone of them will? I have plenty of good buddies that are Police. NO.

But they need to get their MACOPA leaders in check....and on board with the Constitution.

I mean when Sheriffs in other states jurisdictions tell their consitituents they will not enforce unconstitutional gun laws, do you think that the people in those
jurisdictions give a rats ass what the politicians do? Nope.

Take a big weight off of shoulders if the cops said NFW wouldn't it?

I don't agree. If every single cop in the state said they didn't agree with the bill it would pass anyway.
Your whole state is blue. You're getting what the lefty voters want no matter what some municipal employees say.

 

[Buck F]

moving the reply over here to keep things copasthetic.


I can't know, because I have never met you nor the individual or groups of officers in question.

It's not about being anti-cop or pro-cop, its about establishing who MCOPA actually represents, and not who they claim to represent.

Shoot an email to your Chief of Police and ask. Would it not be hilarious to get responses from the hill towns, Berkshire county, and see half the state doesn't even ascribe themselves to MCOPA?

Taking a glass catheter, dipping it in lemon juice, inserting it in my peehole and breaking it off would be less painful than watching you continue on about this.

 

[Wickedcoolname]

Is this for a for real comment? It’s pretty dumb.

Yes, it's for real. Do you really think the lefty politicians in your state give a f*** what cops think?

 

[pastera]

moving the reply over here to keep things copasthetic.


I can't know, because I have never met you nor the individual or groups of officers in question.

It's not about being anti-cop or pro-cop, its about establishing who MCOPA actually represents, and not who they claim to represent.

Shoot an email to your Chief of Police and ask. Would it not be hilarious to get responses from the hill towns, Berkshire county, and see half the state doesn't even ascribe themselves to MCOPA?

Why should we handcuff ourselves - the heaviest pressure we can put is on the police force as a whole which is what the MCOPA is actually representing when they endorse a bill.

Look at it this way
Each individual officer in a department is represented by their chief
Each individual chief is represented by the MCOPA
Therefore, by aggregation, each individual officer is represented by MCOPA.

If a department steps away from solidarity with the MCOPA in support of our rights, then we ask clubs to open up free or very low cost time for those departments to train - quid pro quo to offset the grift and bribes we know MCPOA and the legislature is receiving from national gun ban groups to push this crap

 

[not new guy]

Yes, it's for real. Do you really think the lefty politicians in your state give a f*** what cops think?

Why else do they keep trotting that big douchebag from MCOPA out at their press conferences?

 

[Mesatchornug]

Why else do they keep trotting that big douchebag from MCOPA out at their press conferences?

his incredibly handsome hat

maybe they're hoping to eat the scrambled eggs if things go sideways?

 

[Mark from MA]

I don't agree. If every single cop in the state said they didn't agree with the bill it would pass anyway.
Your whole state is blue. You're getting what the lefty voters want no matter what some municipal employees say.

Never said it wouldnt pass.

But a broad swath of opposition from law enforcement would asway the public's fears on any teeth of the law ever coming to fruition.

I understand that won't happen here. It never has. It never will likely.

The reality is....our lawmakers suck. Our voters suck. That is not the fault of the Police.

However, they decided to enter the public fray on this and come out in support of it, like they have every other gun bill.

When you do that you open yourself up to comment.

If like a lot of people say...the police forces in small towns and western ma don't agree with the MACOPA stance, then maybe they should say something about it in public.

Likely won't happen.....Thin Blue Line. I get it. I'm not naive,

I've got a lot of Cop friends.....I see both sides........none of them are for it, but I'm sure you won't see them risking their pension, job and detail money coming out publicly against it.

 

[Dadstoys]

They sucked for the side that was screaming for their jobs not long ago.
Now alienate the people that were for the most part that were defending you.

Next time around let them know you'll be joining with the side that wants them gone.
There's not much else we can do.

 

[Snora]

Where's the option for "Remove my blue lives matter sticker."

 

[Agnotology]

Why should we handcuff ourselves - the heaviest pressure we can put is on the police force as a whole which is what the MCOPA is actually representing when they endorse a bill.

Look at it this way
Each individual officer in a department is represented by their chief
Each individual chief is represented by the MCOPA
Therefore, by aggregation, each individual officer is represented by MCOPA.

If a department steps away from solidarity with the MCOPA in support of our rights, then we ask clubs to open up free or very low cost time for those departments to train - quid pro quo to offset the grift and bribes we know MCPOA and the legislature is receiving from national gun ban groups to push this crap

This is what I am trying to get across. THEY. ARE. NOT. This is like <insert elected politician> saying they represent you, and by mere dint of them claiming it, you support them. But if you had to pay $1000+/year to be a "member".

Membership

www.masschiefs.org

Here's Western MA COPA. WMCOPA Home - Western Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, Inc.
They are "affiliated" with MCOPA but not a subsidiary of it.

46 members

100 towns and cities. Not even a 50% take rate.

You'll note MCOPA does not list its members. Reason? See below.

Let me google that for you:

Home

www.masschiefs.org

"The MCOPA is comprised of nearly 500 municipal and campus law enforcement executives and commanders in Massachusetts."


There are only 351 municipalities in Mass. clearly you can see that "nearly 500" is quite a lot more than 351


So, I'm pretty damn sure it covers all, or nearly all, the chiefs in Mass.

The reason why they have a lot of "members" is they induct every retired CLEO (chief) to "lifetime" status when they retire. For free. Giving the appearance of representing every city and campus and then some by just doing the basic math on the number of cities/towns.

Taking a glass catheter, dipping it in lemon juice, inserting it in my peehole and breaking it off would be less painful than watching you continue on about this.

Lemon juice? Filthy casual. Carolina Reaper extract or I don't even drop my pants. and I do it for fun.

 

[Agnotology]

I make a motion we kick your ass off NES. I’ve got friend as cops, but I’d still kick them out of clubs. Can’t be trusted in a pinch.

Get in line.

I bet you are the kind of guy who says his slant 6 has a 454, just running on six cylinders

 

[not new guy]

This is what I am trying to get across. THEY. ARE. NOT. This is like <insert elected politician> saying they represent you, and by mere dint of them claiming it, you support them. But if you had to pay $1000+/year to be a "member".

Membership

www.masschiefs.org

Here's Western MA COPA. WMCOPA Home - Western Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, Inc.
They are "affiliated" with MCOPA but not a subsidiary of it.

46 members

100 towns and cities. Not even a 50% take rate.

You'll note MCOPA does not list its members. Reason? See below.


The reason why they have a lot of "members" is they induct every retired CLEO (chief) to "lifetime" status when they retire. For free. Giving the appearance of representing every city and campus and then some by just doing the basic math on the number of cities/towns.


Lemon juice? Filthy casual. Carolina Reaper extract or I don't even drop my pants. and I do it for fun.

So where's the union speaking out against the bill, or calling bullshit on the implication that he speaks for all cops in MA? Which town's chief is speaking out against it? Is there not one f***ing cop or cop organization in this state willing to stand up and say something? Saying they won't enforce it, for example? Or are they all clamming up because they got their exception carved out and they're worried about keeping their jobs and pensions?

This TBL mentality, this bullshit where cops won't speak up against or criticize each other is just one more reason why public sector unions are a problem.

 

[Agnotology]

So where's the union speaking out against the bill, or calling bullshit on the implication that he speaks for all cops in MA? Which town's chief is speaking out against it? Is there not one f***ing cop or cop organization in this state willing to stand up and say something? Saying they won't enforce it, for example? Or are they all clamming up because they got their exception carved out and they're worried about keeping their jobs and pensions?

When did unions come into this? As a general rule, f*** unions. All they do is take a given job and make it pay more so long as they get their cut. Regardless the "value" of the labor. When they actually help get rid of shitty workers I might tolerate them.

As far as the departments speaking out, I don't know. I've shot emails asking area police departments their stance on MCOPA and S2572. How do you want to see them speaking out though? Twitter? Instagram? Calling a press conference? No one past Worcester knows towns out here exist apart from the crime filled and rich ones - Feeding Hills, Springfield, Long Meadow, East Long Meadow, Hadley, Amherst, Holyoke. Maybe Northfield? No TV station cares what they have to say, they have to feed the masses their daily spoon of shit.

 

[not new guy]

Sure, a Facebook/twitter/instagram post would be a great start.

The union speaks for the rank and file cops, no?

 

[mothybee]

Does white knighting for law enforcement online get you some sort of get out of jail card? Maybe one of those stickers for your car's window?

First to answer both your questions, No. Like most labor unions, does the rank and file agree politically with the leaders? No. Does the beat cops elect their chiefs? No. Unions?

 

[pastera]

This is what I am trying to get across. THEY. ARE. NOT. This is like <insert elected politician> saying they represent you, and by mere dint of them claiming it, you support them. But if you had to pay $1000+/year to be a "member".

Membership

www.masschiefs.org

Here's Western MA COPA. WMCOPA Home - Western Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, Inc.
They are "affiliated" with MCOPA but not a subsidiary of it.

46 members

100 towns and cities. Not even a 50% take rate.

You'll note MCOPA does not list its members. Reason? See below.


The reason why they have a lot of "members" is they induct every retired CLEO (chief) to "lifetime" status when they retire. For free. Giving the appearance of representing every city and campus and then some by just doing the basic math on the number of cities/towns.


Lemon juice? Filthy casual. Carolina Reaper extract or I don't even drop my pants. and I do it for fun.

You aren't getting the point
We have no power over the MCOPA
However police do - it might be small but if a large number of towns and cities suddenly had to pay range fees, travel and overtime to fulfill training requirements you bet your ads someone would have their phone ringing off the hook.

Is it fair to the rank and file cop?
I don't care since they don't care that my guns will never be used for violence but they will still enforce then anyhow.

 

[Mark from MA]

This is what I am trying to get across. THEY. ARE. NOT. This is like <insert elected politician> saying they represent you, and by mere dint of them claiming it, you support them. But if you had to pay $1000+/year to be a "member".

Membership

www.masschiefs.org

Here's Western MA COPA. WMCOPA Home - Western Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, Inc.
They are "affiliated" with MCOPA but not a subsidiary of it.

46 members

100 towns and cities. Not even a 50% take rate.

You'll note MCOPA does not list its members. Reason? See below.


The reason why they have a lot of "members" is they induct every retired CLEO (chief) to "lifetime" status when they retire. For free. Giving the appearance of representing every city and campus and then some by just doing the basic math on the number of cities/towns.


Lemon juice? Filthy casual. Carolina Reaper extract or I don't even drop my pants. and I do it for fun.

Oh....there's a Western MA MACOPA?

Awesome! They must be going against the bill right?

Im waiting for their public statement on it........

 

[not new guy]

Agnotology - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Within the sociology of knowledge, agnotology (formerly agnatology) is the study of deliberate, culturally induced ignorance or doubt, typically to sell a product, influence opinion, or win favour,

 

[Mark from MA]

First to answer both your questions, No. Like most labor unions, does the rank and file agree politically with the leaders? No. Does the beat cops elect their chiefs? No. Unions?

There is nothing that rank and file beat cops can do here....other than when the law starts.......not enforce it quietly. Im not blaming any rank and file at all.

There are 351 police chiefs, more that are retired...etc...whatever bullshit....... that can push back against the MCOPA leadership decision, which may I remind you was to approve of the bill BEFORE the final is even on paper and BEFORE there was public comment. Maybe some of those chiefs are coming back in opposition....privately. That would be wonderful.

At any level though MCOPA is saying.....lets pass the bill before we see whats in it. So.....Basically...their position......is there a carve out for US the elite police force in the Senate version??? YUP......OK APPROVED!

And if anyone thinks that not letting them use a range is punitive to the rank and file, or anti police........ Its not. Its a paper tiger statement to the Chiefs basically saying your aligning with an anti civil rights group....you might want to look at it and reconsider.

And you might want to remember who "backed the blue" and who stood up for you when ACAB and Defund the police was all the rage. You might want to remember your friends.....and not be a shill for your enemies.

Its your time to stand up for US.....not for the people who were questioning your worth a year or two ago.

 

[HARRYM]

Let me think about this. On one hand we have corrupt public government trying to reel in corrupt police departments.......

I'm not seeing a clear path of success here....

 

[Grendizer138]

If the MACOPA pushed back on this, either on its own or because of PD pressure, it would definitely have an impact. It’s difficult for politicians and the media to push the “public safety” narrative when something is opposed by - public safety.

It might not have stopped the Senate version altogether but it would have provided ammunition for an organized resistance.

Smart people realize this.