Recoil/Knockdown Power .45 vs. 10mm

I'll give it a shot. I'm assuming you're referring to the .45 ACP. Lets compare some max loads (from Speer Manual #13):

10mm
155gr Bullet, Muzzle Velocity=1320, Muzzle Energy= 600 ft/lbs
180gr Bullet, Muzzle Velocity=1295, Muzzle Energy= 670 ft/lbs
200gr Bullet, Muzzle Velocity=1216, Muzzle Energy= 657 ft/lbs

.45 ACP
185gr Bullet, Muzzle Velocity=1047, Muzzle Energy= 450 ft/lbs
200gr Bullet, Muzzle Velocity=1010, Muzzle Energy= 453 ft/lbs
230gr Bullet, Muzzle Velocity= 916, Muzzle Energy= 429 ft/lbs

If muzzle energy is analogous to knockdown power, then we have a clear winner. The 10mm is more powerful than a .45ACP and even more powerful than the .357 Magnum. The 10mm is in .41 Magnum territory.

As far as recoil goes, I find it very tolerable, not much different than a .45ACP in guns with similar weight.
 
I've got a Colt Delta Elite. Compared to my full size Kimber, the Delta Elite has noticeably more recoil.

As for "knockdown power", both 45 ACP and 10mm will do the job if you do yours. Both will fail if you don't.

10mm ammo is more expensive and much harder to find.
 
Once you have taken the exceptions, grizzly bears, bullet proof vests and penetrating a '52 Buick lengthwise, out of the equation, about 350 FPE has long been accepted as a good amount of stopping power. This assumes a bullet which has adequate penetration and energy transfer.
Any energy significantly in excess will detract from the desired end effect through excessive recoil and penetration.
If you are assaulted by a grizzly bear wearing a bullet proof vest and driving a '52 Buick, a .500 S&W might be appropriate. For other circumstances, .38 Spl +P, .357 Mag, .44 Spl., .40S&W or .45 ACP will do just fine, with the right load.

I've long used the following criteria when selecting a gun - caliber - load:
Can I put two quick shots in to 4" at 7 yards?
Is the gun small enough to conceal, light enough to carry and still controllable for follow up shots?

Under various circumstances the following have been found suitable:
Ruger .357 Security-Six 2-3/4" (overall favorite for the past 30 years)
S&W M640 .357 2-1/8" (concealment vs. recoil)
Sig P229/.40 S&W (12 shots quick but a little large for summertime)
Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Spl (sure wish I'd not sold this one!)
1911 Govt. Model .45 ACP (It's hard to beat a proven classic but a little hard to conceal)

A 3" S&W M625 is on the shopping list. ;)
 
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jhrosier said:
If you are assaulted by a grizzly bear wearing a bullet proof vest and driving a '52 Buick, a .500 S&W might be appropriate. For other circumstances, .38 Spl +P, .357 Mag, .44 Spl., .40S&W or .45 ACP will do just fine, with the right load.
Click to expand...

[laugh2] [laugh2] [laugh2]
Reminds me of a Far Side cartoon.

I would add a good quality 9mm to your list as well.


Chris
 
jhrosier said:
Once you have taken the exceptions, grizzly bears, bullet proof vests and penetrating a '52 Buick lengthwise, out of the equation, about 350 FPE has long been accepted as a good amount of stopping power. This assumes a bullet which has adequate penetration and energy transfer.
Any energy significantly in excess will detract from the desired end effect through excessive recoil and penetration.

-snip-

I've long used the following criteria when selecting a gun - caliber - load:
Can I put two quick shots in to 4" at 7 yards?
Is the gun small enough to conceal, light enough to carry and still controllable for follow up shots?

Under various circumstances the following have been found suitable: Ruger .357 Security-Six 2-3/4" (overall favorite for the past 30 years)
S&W M640 .357 2-1/8" (concealment vs. recoil)
Sig P229/.40 S&W (12 shots quick but a little large for summertime)
Charter Arms Bulldog .44 Spl (sure wish I'd not sold this one!)
1911 Govt. Model .45 ACP (It's hard to beat a proven classic but a little hard to conceal)

A 3" S&W M625 is on the shopping list. ;)
Click to expand...

Cool! A caliber war. [grin] I'll take the 10mm side because lately I've been carrying a G29. The G29 is about the same size and weight as your Security Six but with twice as many rounds of a more powerful caliber. Don't get me wrong - I would not by any means feel under-gunned with a .357 (until recently, my carry gun was a 5-shot .38 +P), but if I can carry 11 rounds of 10mm in the same size package, I'm going to do it.

I agree with you in that a gun should be small enough to conceal, light enough to carry, and still controllable for follow up shots. But I disagree with the statement in bold above (I added the emphasis) if you mean to imply that the 10mm has excessive penetration and recoil. A .500 S&W? Yes, that's a bit much; but not a 10mm. A 158gr .357 bullet moving at 1265 fps has 560 FPE. I doubt that the 10mm's extra 100 FPE is going to cause over penetration and make recoil unmanageable.

As you know, penetration and energy transfer are mainly dependent on bullet design. In defense calibers, an FMJ is most likely to over penetrate and trail the pack in energy transfer, while a well designed hollowpoint will expend most or all of it's energy in the target without over penetrating - even when it's a 10mm.

The amount of recoil one can handle is going to vary from shooter to shooter. After firing both, I can pretty confidently say that if you can handle the recoil of a .357 Magnum snubby, you can handle a 10mm Glock. In my opinion, a 10mm in a baby Glock has less felt recoil than a .357 Mag in a snubby revolver. I don't know whether it's the grip angle, bore axis, trigger pull, or something else, but I can get more accurate follow-up shots with the Glock than I can with the snubby.

I wouldn't feel under-gunned with anything on your list; you shouldn't feel over-gunned with the 10mm.



P.S. - Since this thread is a caliber discussion, let me be the first to post the following horrendously obvious and ubiquitous statement that shows up in all such discussions:

"Shot placement is key. I'd rather hit someone with a well placed .22 than miss with a .44 Magnum, blah, blah, blah..."

There. That should save someone from coming in here and smugly stating something that's incredibly obvious as if it was a concept that we hadn't considered.
 
EddieCoyle said:
I'll take the 10mm side because lately I've been carrying a G29. The G29 is about the same size and weight as your Security Six but with twice as many rounds of a more powerful caliber.


In my opinion, a 10mm in a baby Glock has less felt recoil than a .357 Mag in a snubby revolver. I don't know whether it's the grip angle, bore axis, trigger pull, or something else, but I can get more accurate follow-up shots with the Glock than I can with the snubby.
Click to expand...


I have found the exact same thing. When I had a 29 (Robert-in-Maine has it now), I could shoot that thing better than any handgun I have had before or since. Recoil really wasn't an issue with it. My current Kahr PM40 has WAY more slap to it.
 
If 10mm was 'better' than the .45acp then wouldn't the .45 be on the endangered species list instead of the 10mm?

I've fired both and I think the 10 is snappier than the 45. In equal guns, based on the figues above, it would have to be.

I prefer the 1911 (or any .45) ....along with millions of others.
 
Pilgrim said:
If 10mm was 'better' than the .45acp then wouldn't the .45 be on the endangered species list instead of the 10mm?

I've fired both and I think the 10 is snappier than the 45. In equal guns, based on the figues above, it would have to be.

I prefer the 1911 (or any .45) ....along with millions of others.
Click to expand...

The 10MM's biggest problem was really bad timing. It was designed to pass the .45acp, and compete with the .357 magnum in the stopping power category. The problem is that when it came out, everybody was switching to the 9MM for it's increased capacity, and more manageable recoil. Then the AWB happened, and the "wondernines" fell out of favor with the general public because they could only have 10 rounds. The .45 was allready established in the 1911 platform, so people just started moving toward that instead of taking a chance on a caliber that hadn't been around the block yet. The biggest reason the 10MM is still around is that it is a superior cartridge, and the biggest reason the 1911 is as popular as it is today is the AWB.
 
EddieCoyle said:
Cool! A caliber war. [grin]
Click to expand...
It will probably degenerate to a discussion because we agree on most points.
... if you mean to imply that the 10mm has excessive penetration and recoil.
Click to expand...

Not excessive, just a little more than needed to get the job done. It goes back to the tradeoffs that we have to make between size, weight, power and recoil. I like the 10mm in my 6-1/2" M610 but it's just too big and heavy for CCW. I am surprised that many people find the recoil of the baby Glocks manageable.

... A 158gr .357 bullet moving at 1265 fps has 560 FPE.
Click to expand...

I've found the 158s a little heavy for the snubbys. The 140gr is the heaviest bullet that I can shoot effectively in a short barrel.

...As you know, penetration and energy transfer are mainly dependent on bullet design. In defense calibers, an FMJ is most likely to over penetrate and trail the pack in energy transfer, while a well designed hollowpoint will expend most or all of it's energy in the target without over penetrating - even when it's a 10mm.
Click to expand...

When I first started shooting, back in the '60s, modern jacketed bullets were still not generally available in factory loads for the .357. The early attempts were not reliable in expansion. There's still a lot of us who don't completely trust JHPs. I know it sounds silly to not adopt the "new technology" but I'm a lot more confident with a large flat point.

The amount of recoil one can handle is going to vary from shooter to shooter. After firing both, I can pretty confidently say that if you can handle the recoil of a .357 Magnum snubby, you can handle a 10mm Glock. In my opinion, a 10mm in a baby Glock has less felt recoil than a .357 Mag in a snubby revolver. I don't know whether it's the grip angle, bore axis, trigger pull, or something else, but I can get more accurate follow-up shots with the Glock than I can with the snubby.

I wouldn't feel under-gunned with anything on your list; you shouldn't feel over-gunned with the 10mm.
Click to expand...

Handguns are a much more personal choice than rifles because the shooter has more effect on the performance of the system. As I try to explain to new shooters: "The shooter is part of the gun."
It's what has made shooting a fascinating hobby for the past many years.[smile]
 
jhrosier said:
. I am surprised that many people find the recoil of the baby Glocks manageable.
Click to expand...

Of course, theres a difference between "manageable" and "fun to
shoot."

My G29 is easy enough to control, and I can even get shots rapidly on
target... maybe not in the same way my G19 does, but still at a pretty
good clip.

The only real downer with 10mm is that shooting a G29 with factory or greater .
10mm for long periods of time tends to beat up ones hand a
bit, especially if you have small hands. I like the gun but I can't
practice with more than a box or two before I'm "done". It tends to
pulverize the area to the right of my thumb joint a bit. If I wore a glove
while shooting it, it probably wouldn't be an issue.

That being said, the recoil is not nearly as bad as one of those damn
S+W scandium .357 snubs. Those things are plain rude.


-Mike
 
drgrant said:
That being said, the recoil is not nearly as bad as one of those damn
S+W scandium .357 snubs. Those things are plain rude.


-Mike
Click to expand...

HA HA! Yeah, Black Betty is a mean one! If you're going to carry one, use .38+p. The .357 will make your hand bleed, but it's quite the experience.
 
David C said:
If I remember right, the Delta Elite is a Colt, right/wrong ??? Made in the 90's, right/wrong ???
Click to expand...
Yes, it is a Colt. I don't remember the years of production. You can find used ones around now and then. I picked mine up about 4 years ago.
 
10mm is pretty darn sweet and is my daily companion while in the Maine woods and even urbanish settings.
My G29 is very comfortable, very accurate, and just plain SWEET.
I've owned three .45s and loved them all dearly but after purchasing the G29 from Pat, I sold two of the .45s and keep the third because... because... uh... probably because of the thousands of pieces of brass and projectiles I still have in my possession and it's a nice shooter to boot.
Pure energy considerations give the nod to the 10 but "whatever floats your boat."
I'd love to get more 10mm guys on board to bring the price of brass down.
Lets start a 10mm revolution guys. Who's buying??????
 
I have no use for subcompacts in .45 or 10mm or anything heavy like that. I have poor wrists and when I tried out the Para Warthog, I couldn't even finish off the first box of ammo, much less hit anything. As far as I'm concerned, a .38 SW snubby (not even +P) or even one of their small .22 revolvers would be my ideal carry gun if I didn't have a neutered LTC (in the summer, in the winter I would go full sized). .22 sounds like a bad joke, but a couple of .22s in the head beats a couple of 10mms in the chest.
 
vellnueve said:
but a couple of .22s in the head beats a couple of 10mms in the chest.
Click to expand...


Yeah because you're guaranteed a head shot with a .22 whereas a 10mm couldn't possibly hit someone in the head. [rolleyes]

Even at moderate distances, there's some question if a .22 will even penetrate a skull. Perhaps if the barrel were pressed up against the target? Even so, a couple of 10mms beats a couple of .22s in the same place.
 
"The only real downer with 10mm is that shooting a G29 with factory or greater .
10mm for long periods of time tends to beat up ones hand a
bit, especially if you have small hands. I like the gun but I can't
practice with more than a box or two before I'm "done".


You probably already know this, but KKM makes a .40 barrel that just drops into the G29. I have one and it's great! Cheaper and less punnishing that 10mm.

I personally feel that 10mm loaded with "buffalo Bore" or "double Tap" full power loads truly beats .45
I will never give up my 1911's though!
 
Then again, you could always get light 10mm ammo (like the old FBI rounds). That's essentially what a .40 is, except in a shorter case.

Ken
 

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