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Well, I guess before you throw an upper on it that is a question, because the same lower can be .223, 5.56, etc, correct.
Or 9mm, or 300AAC, or 22lr...
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Well, I guess before you throw an upper on it that is a question, because the same lower can be .223, 5.56, etc, correct.
Astronut16, when you walk into a room, common practice is sit down, mouth shut, and ears open long enough to understand what's going on in the room before you contribute to the conversation(s). Forums are no different.So way to treat me like a child without actually answering the questions I posed. Clearly you have no problem "doing you." I'm just trying to understand the intricacies so I can make a calculated decision and you have to take it to treating me like a coward and shit talking Maura instead of being direct. If someone asks "what specific concerns do I need to consider?" the appropriate response is not "either have concerns or don't buy" unless your goal is to continue maintaining the "wizard behind the curtains" mentality of firearms ownership in MA.
a $750 gap is more than a few hundred bucks, but it might be worth it just for the insurance.
I feel for the new guy though.
We are all quite literally in the same boat.
But this forum likes to shame and ridicule new people for asking questions. It’s almost as if you’re not pro-2A and instead just like having guns and making fun of people who don’t.
Yes, this question has been asked a million times and almost every time it’s “answered” with the same “hEaLeY bAn iS fAkE” narrative.
Call me a bootlicker but I recognize the healey press conference and therefore only build on pre-94 lowers. Too much risk for too little gain to flout an openly published “interpretation” policy.
A pre94 lower can be bought for $1000 so why all this fuss to save a few hundred bucks? As MAGAARMS so eloquently put it earlier: “can’t figure out if you’re a hater or poor... probably both”
The Healey Ban is fake though. It is a reinterpretation of standing case law; which is why the Mass House was ripshit at Healey for bypassing their "authority". You can't reinterpreted case law, especially a LEO like Healey ... that's not her job. Her job is to enforce laws in how they currently stand.
What it was good for was scaring FFLs from transferring in and selling "copies and duplicates" of ARs and AKs. That's all it is ... a scare tactic and it worked for the most part. There hasn't been ONE charge using Healey's Ban definition since her proclaimination in July 2016 ... and this is by design ... if brought to court, it would be thrown out ... just like her JS Arms fixed mag lower AWB case was thrown out.
so how exactly are guys registering these builds?
be that as it may, ive yet to see a retraction of this fake press conference even with, i assume, all of the pro-2A organizations applying pressure about this
we need a martyr to turn themselves in so that this can be tested in court
JC Arms. Joe spent enough that he ought to get proper credit.
@drgrant Gave you a good answer even if you did not like it or felt you were treated like a child. There are literally 100s of threads on the MA AWB and the Healey press conference.So way to treat me like a child without actually answering the questions I posed. Clearly you have no problem "doing you." I'm just trying to understand the intricacies so I can make a calculated decision and you have to take it to treating me like a coward and shit talking Maura instead of being direct. If someone asks "what specific concerns do I need to consider?" the appropriate response is not "either have concerns or don't buy" unless your goal is to continue maintaining the "wizard behind the curtains" mentality of firearms ownership in MA.
There are no “answers” that’s my point. Those looking for legal “ condoms “ against maurons bullshit won’t find them. The closest to that is the law itself, her edict is made from whole cloth and not really reflective of the actual law.So way to treat me like a child without actually answering the questions I posed. Clearly you have no problem "doing you." I'm just trying to understand the intricacies so I can make a calculated decision and you have to take it to treating me like a coward and shit talking Maura instead of being direct. If someone asks "what specific concerns do I need to consider?" the appropriate response is not "either have concerns or don't buy" unless your goal is to continue maintaining the "wizard behind the curtains" mentality of firearms ownership in MA.
I'm going to have to research the JCarms deal.
Wow...@drgrant Gave you a good answer even if you did not like it or felt you were treated like a child. There are literally 100s of threads on the MA AWB and the Healey press conference.
The bottom line is there is the law as written and there is what Healy said in front of a camera and subsequently posted on her website (and has modified a dozen times since). Assuming you have a basic understanding of civics you know that Healey cannot make new laws which she tried to do at her press conference. Assuming you have not lived under a rock you know that MA courts don't care what the law says and therefore even following the law with regards to guns has risk.
So instead of being a millennial with hurt feelings and talking about how you were treated, put on your big boy pants and decide what you want to do. I see the following options
My observations
- Ignore the law and do whatever you want.
- Follow the written law, buy a new lower, build it in compliance with the AWB and go about your business.
- Partially follow Healey and buy or build a fixed mag lower/rifle
- Try and follow Healey (good luck with that since she edits her site regularly and has language like "not limited to"). Buy a pre-Healey lower or rifle at ass-rape prices but go home feeling good that you have supported tyrants
- Go home with your man-bun, skinny jeans and antifa girlfriend. Return your balls to the jar she keeps them in. Cut up your LTC since gun ownership is not for you
Gun ownership is about personal responsibility. Take some. Read the law. Read the forum. Make your own damn decisions. If you decide you have a pair of balls and wear big boy pants, buy a lower and build an AR like everyone else does.
- If you are worried about how you are treated or want to talk about your feelings, you are in the wrong place. I am sure there is a forum hosted by AOC that will better fit your temperament.
- If you don't like us bashing Healey or other libtards, again, you are on the wrong forum.
- If you really wanted an answer, go read the 1000 posts on the topic. This is really asked/answered too often to think about and everyone is tired of every noob to the forum asking the same damn question and wanting to be spoon fed answers when they are readily available
Thanks, that's more or less the set of conclusions I've come to after the months of reading, googling, and basically trying to educate myself before engaging other people, you know, that shit the trolls don't think I did, but if you read from my very first response you can see I'm speaking from educated confusion, not "hey guys, what constitutes an AWB?" when it's defined clearly in the MGL and it's referencing of the defunct FAWB.Here is the clear straight answer lowdown as far as I understand it. Please correct me if i'm misinformed.
1. An AR lower is not considered a firearm in Ma.
2. An AR lower is considered a firearm Federally, thus the NCIS check when purchasing.
3. Once you completed the AR lower and it is able to fire a round you have 7 days to register it to comply with Mass law (EFA-10)
4. When registering your rifle they ask caliber, barrel length and manufacture. Date of purchase or date of manufacture is not part of the registration. Nor is who you bought it from or where is came from. The state just want to know that you have it.
5. You still need to comply with Mass law "evil features" and federal law barrel length. (last time i checked there isn't someone at my range checking for pinned muzzle brakes and stocks.)
6. The AR ban is actually not a ban. No laws were changed. It was a press conference that reinterpreted existing laws that scared FFL's into selling AR style rifles. Same administration that scares the vast majority of online ammo sales from online vendors even though it is also 100% perfectly legal to do so (thank god for TS).
Please add anything that I might have missed.
Well to all including OP who say there is no such thing as pre-Healy, why did dealers stop selling them in 7/16? What happened on that day?
It is a thing, and the fact is no one wants to be a test case. At least with a pre-Healy, you have an additional leg to stand on if you are the one persecuted. That to me is worth a few hundred extra bucks.
.
FFLs selling a stripped lower are not at risk of the Healy edict - it's not a firearm. But joe schmoe taking that lower and building it up? He will be dead meat if caught. At least with a pre-Healy lower you have a case that it was owned all along. Or a document that says so. Take one manufactured last year you have absolutely no defense.
And maybe none of this matters when MA finally passes another assault weapons ban. It will be like NYS and they all will have to go - big fire sale.
.
Thanks, that's more or less the set of conclusions I've come to after the months of reading, googling, and basically trying to educate myself before engaging other people, you know, that shit the trolls don't think I did, but if you read from my very first response you can see I'm speaking from educated confusion, not "hey guys, what constitutes an AWB?" when it's defined clearly in the MGL and it's referencing of the defunct FAWB.
Missed the point again. There are no clear answers. The law is only the law if courts uphold it which they dont in MA when it comes to guns. So either make a decision and move on or keep railing against people on this forum who are giving you the best answers that exist. Now I may have couched my answers in some comical insults because you are coming off like a latte drinking millennial, but that does not change reality. Thicken your skin, do some actual reading and make your own decisions. Then live with the consequences of your own decisions.Wow...
Where to begin. I'm not a millennial. A bit older than that. I've spent my entire career saving lives as an RN and my "antifa" girlfriend is actually a doctor who also spends her career helping people. I'm a staunch believer in the LAW and our RIGHTS. I also am not stupid enough to not understand how those things get weaponized. My feelings aren't hurt, I'm just all set dealing with c***s like you who have time to act like a f***boy but don't have time to answer some simple questions, the answers to which are scattered all over. In short, go f*** yourself.
Now this is the kind of rationale I was hoping to hear from people. I wanted to know what other people thought, not what the facts were since we all can look that up. I wanted to make sure my conclusions weren't fairy tale bullshit compared to people with much more exposure. I agree with every inch of what you've said above, and I also have no intention of giving them a reason to get involved in my life like the guy in the JC Arms case did. So the risk you've outlined is the risk I am willing to take, I just didn't want to miss any others.There is a market for "pre-Healey" lowers and rifles for a reason. I sold off almost every "pre-Healey" item I could find in my personal safe to people that felt like you do. This is Amerika after all and everyone gets to have their opinion and anyone who wants to profit based on those opinions is free to do so.
Ok, so that is a little ironic since right now having an opinion other than that of BLM is not allowed and anti "price gauging" laws are a thing, but I am allowed to dream.
Healey said the lower of an assault weapon is an assault weapon. So by your logic above, the dealer is still taking risk since they are "ignoring" Healey. How dare we.
You say "dead meat". Please reference ANY case of a successful prosecution under the Healey press conference. The purpose of the press conference was fear, uncertainty and doubt. You are perpetuating fear with your post. We have no evidence of "dead meat" so let's not help Healey in her mission by perpetuating the fear she released.
The one case on the south shore where a scum bag was charged with an AWB violation on a JCArms fixed mag lower built into a pistol was successfully defended by JCArms and we have good case law in our favor about the fixed mag AR platform. That was not a charge under Healey press conference but classic thuggery by the local police to pile on charges. It backfired.
Healey's press conference had statements that fall into two categories
It is important to understand the way the MA AWB works.
- Made up of whole cloth with no basis in the written law
- Made up in direct contradiction of 18 years of MA law and 22 years of federal law
MGL 140 131M says illegal to XXXX an assault weapon
MGL 140 121 defines assault weapon as "see federal law of 13 sep 1994"
Federal law was then interpreted and the interpretations published, questions answered, etc by the ATF. We then have 10 years of federal case law around the AWB and 100s of pages of decisions and rulings by the ATF about what it means.
Healey came along and said "I dont care about what the law meant, I am changing that and oh, by the way, here are some new laws".
A lower is unregulated in MA so a charge under MGL 140 131M as an AWB violation falls into (1) made up of whole cloth. This is why some FFLs will now sell lowers and 9mm ARs and...
The re-interpretation of what is an AW with her interoperability tests and similarity tests is her pretending to be the ATF but throwing out 22 years of precedent. It means nothing unless we let it. BUT a dealer has a "may issue" license. So there are very straight forward scenarios where a dealer will lose their license related to this new Healey crap. That is why you are unlikely to see a dealer sell an AR outright that is post 13 sep 1994.
Individuals on the other hand require criminal prosecution and that bar is very high compared to the "may issue" dealer license. Healey does not pass muster in any reasonable court of law (which we dont have in MA). So most people are willing to take that risk and move on with their lives. We all "want" a criminal prosecution because it will establish case law that the civil actions taken against Healey cant. But no DA will prosecute because the risk of case law favorable to us is too high and the status quo of fear and people spreading fear is a far better result.
So again, please stop spreading fear.
Individuals on the other hand require criminal prosecution and that bar is very high compared to the "may issue" dealer license. Healey does not pass muster in any reasonable court of law (which we dont have in MA). So most people are willing to take that risk and move on with their lives. We all "want" a criminal prosecution because it will establish case law that the civil actions taken against Healey cant. But no DA will prosecute because the risk of case law favorable to us is too high and the status quo of fear and people spreading fear is a far better result.
Your second answer is the kind of answer you give to someone joining your ranks, the first answer is the answer that makes someone feel like a moron and not join the ranks. Isn't the goal to have more and more responsible like minded owners, the old "strength in numbers" thing? I know it's a pain in the ass to deal with noobs, I do it all the time with car guy stuff, but damn dude, it took you more time to call me a bitch than it did to give your well rounded views, and I'm over here just trying to make sure I'm not f***ing myself or the cause.Missed the point again. There are no clear answers. The law is only the law if courts uphold it which they dont in MA when it comes to guns. So either make a decision and move on or keep railing against people on this forum who are giving you the best answers that exist. Now I may have couched my answers in some comical insults because you are coming off like a latte drinking millennial, but that does not change reality. Thicken your skin, do some actual reading and make your own decisions. Then live with the consequences of your own decisions.
People not giving you the answer you want does not make then wrong.
If only f***ing myself was anatomically possible. The potential...
Wow...
Where to begin. I'm not a millennial. A bit older than that. I've spent my entire career saving lives as an RN and my "antifa" girlfriend is actually a doctor who also spends her career helping people. I'm a staunch believer in the LAW and our RIGHTS. I also am not stupid enough to not understand how those things get weaponized. My feelings aren't hurt, I'm just all set dealing with c***s like you who have time to act like a f***boy but don't have time to answer some simple questions, the answers to which are scattered all over. In short, go f*** yourself.
I won't hug it out, but you might have a future on NES. Get through the rough edges and the abuse you will take and the forum can be pure gold. It is definitely one of my favorite sports to splatter noobs on the pavement when they, well, act like noobs.Your second answer is the kind of answer you give to someone joining your ranks, the first answer is the answer that makes someone feel like a moron and not join the ranks. Isn't the goal to have more and more responsible like minded owners, the old "strength in numbers" thing? I know it's a pain in the ass to deal with noobs, I do it all the time with car guy stuff, but damn dude, it took you more time to call me a bitch than it did to give your well rounded views, and I'm over here just trying to make sure I'm not f***ing myself or the cause.
Plenty of people are legally registering their builds, 67ray how are they dead meat? Major misinformation here.
His “dead meat” comment isn’t accurate. However, he does have a point that you hold less liability than those building rifles.
1. You don’t hold any liability because you are not transferring firearms, by actual text of the MGL. That part of her decree is easily ignored as it is in contravention of MGL and there is no gray area.
2. The buyer then builds an AR, which becomes a firearm. According to traditional reading of MGL and the opinion of the ATF, it is not an assault weapon as long as it meets feature limits. However, “copy” and “duplicate” are not defined in MGL and thus are technically open to interpretation by the AG. Her two tests to determine copy and duplicate don’t hold MGL backing, but can still be used by her to bring charges for complete firearms.
Those charges are unlikely to happen, but there is more inherent risk for the buyer than you.
The re-interpretation of what is an AW with her interoperability tests and similarity tests is her pretending to be the ATF but throwing out 22 years of precedent. It means nothing unless we let it. BUT a dealer has a "may issue" license. So there are very straight forward scenarios where a dealer will lose their license related to this new Healey crap. That is why you are unlikely to see a dealer sell an AR outright that is post 13 sep 1994.
Individuals on the other hand require criminal prosecution and that bar is very high compared to the "may issue" dealer license. Healey does not pass muster in any reasonable court of law (which we dont have in MA). So most people are willing to take that risk and move on with their lives. We all "want" a criminal prosecution because it will establish case law that the civil actions taken against Healey cant. But no DA will prosecute because the risk of case law favorable to us is too high and the status quo of fear and people spreading fear is a far better result.