PSA: iS It pRe HEaLY?

[TLB]

To note, it was my understanding that lowers acquired before 7/20/2016 in the state of MA were legal to build because they were transferred into the state. As stripped lowers, they are not able to be registered until built, but if they were in fact transferred to someone in state before 7/20/16, you can still build and register.

I would assume the best thing to do is have a receipt showing the sale and transfer date since theres no FA10 record on the lower when purchased since it is not a "firearm". Granted, if they really want to take the time to look into it and check the 4473s, they have enough to temporarily break your balls. I know I would feel better at least having some documentation on the lower to avoid the hassle of bringing a legal rep into the matter while they investigate it.

If you feel the need to follow the "NOT law,", build your lower as a 22LR and EFA10. Then you can slap whatever you want on it later (which does not trigger a requirement to FA10 again).

But maybe I'm not the best to advise, because I believe we are on a post-law world on this country now.

 

[_atd14]

If you feel the need to follow the "NOT law,", build your lower as a 22LR and EFA10. Then you can slap whatever you want on it later (which does not trigger a requirement to FA10 again).

But maybe I'm not the best to advise, because I believe we are on a post-law world on this country now.

I have heard this is the past and I agree with you about being in a "post-law world". I just wondered if, for example, you register a Spikes in 22LR (although Spikes doesn't make a 22LR) and then registered it, would it be a red flag?

 

[alx]

If you feel the need to follow the "NOT law,", build your lower as a 22LR and EFA10. Then you can slap whatever you want on it later (which does not trigger a requirement to FA10 again).

But maybe I'm not the best to advise, because I believe we are on a post-law world on this country now.

you cannot build a post- healey lower of any caliber because you fall under the definition of "copies or duplicates"

Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Enforcement Notice

www.mass.gov

The weapon has a receiver that includes or accepts key operating components that are interchangeable with those of a banned weapon. The relevant operating components may include, but are not limited to:

1) the trigger assembly;

2) the bolt carrier or bolt carrier group;

3) the charging handle;

4) the extractor or extractor assembly; or

5) the magazine port.

 

[alx]

This is true @Grendizer138. I'm just the type of person who wants all of the paperwork I can in case I ever needed it. This whole ban/edict/shitshow is absolutely ridiculous.

No need for documentation really. The (e)FA10 system can and has been queried by law enforcement. If your lower has been registered before Healey it will show as such and you are GTG. If your lower "shows" up in the system after Healey it better not have an upper with a barrel attached to it. Now, some FFLs did not FA10 lowers so if yours is one of those and you dont have paperwork- it will be tough to prove if it ever comes to that.

It is that simple.

 

[DW357]

My head hurts

 

[PappyM3]

you cannot build a post- healey lower of any caliber because you fall under the definition of "copies or duplicates"

Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Enforcement Notice

www.mass.gov

LOL, and therein lies the ridiculousness of her op-Ed.

She specifically exempts 22lr from her copies and duplicates interpretation based on absolutely nothing in law. And according to her interpretation, you could build a 22lr AR from the ground up, just like a fixed mag.

Oh, but you say the lower itself is an assault weapon according to her, right? Well, that is directly contradicted by actual codified MGL.

 

[DarthRevan]

This is where I check out... there was a whole thread back in 2016 about it....
Go work the search function a bit.

 

[alx]

LOL, and therein lies the ridiculousness of her op-Ed.

She specifically exempts 22lr from her copies and duplicates interpretation based on absolutely nothing in law. But according to her interpretation, you could build a 22lr AR from the ground up, just like a fixed mag.

Oh, but you say the lower itself is an assault weapon according to her, right? Well, that is directly contradicted by actual codified MGL.

Oh, you are preaching to the choir... I am just playing here devil's advocate because this is exactly what will happen in court. At $450/ hour for any one of us sheep...

 

[PappyM3]

My personal research and discussions with a 2A - sympathetic attorney (he is my best man) has me believe what you outlined.

If a lower has been registered in MA pre- Healey it can be sold privately and you can build whatever rifle you want that does not fall under AWB + MA addons.
...

Yeah, no. “Pre-Healey” is complete nonsense. She only says that they’re not an enforcement priority right now. She can’t rewrite the law and grandfather pre-2016 rifles/lowers. The law specifically says 1994 is the cutoff date. So, if you believe her reversal of 18 years of state interpretation, then you have to apply it to any gun post-Sep1994 as the actual law says.

 

[Len-2A Training]

To note, it was my understanding that lowers acquired before 7/20/2016 in the state of MA were legal to build because they were transferred into the state. As stripped lowers, they are not able to be registered until built, but if they were in fact transferred to someone in state before 7/20/16, you can still build and register.

I would assume the best thing to do is have a receipt showing the sale and transfer date since theres no FA10 record on the lower when purchased since it is not a "firearm". Granted, if they really want to take the time to look into it and check the 4473s, they have enough to temporarily break your balls. I know I would feel better at least having some documentation on the lower to avoid the hassle of bringing a legal rep into the matter while they investigate it.

She released various versions of her FAQ, plus Emails responding to questions.

A few gems from these:

- She declared that even stripped lowers were "AWs" and illegal to possess.
- Her edict reaches back to 1998 mfr, when the words of the 1994 Clinton Ban were specifically incorporated in MGL. However, she declared that everything made after the Fed Ban was illegal even if the BATFE stated that they were legal.
- Yes, she said that if you possessed a lower made prior to her edict that you could build it and register it legally. This, of course contradicts my prior bullet point, so the whole thing is all double-talk.

For those that are into tinfoil, chew on the above, go read what she actually posted over time and try to make sense of it all. Good luck!

 

[Rob Boudrie]

A lower is not a weapon. You can buy/sell them and have them registered. Problem is when you build it you have 7 days to register it and that is when it breaks the law.

1. Healy claims a stripped lower is a similar weapon (making law)
2. She claims guns that do not meet the referenced federal definition of AW are AWs (also making law)

So by what legal theory is one form of making law by edict #2 effective at making something illegal, but another (#1) is not?

Most dealers abide by Healy on #1.

 

[KAG Arms]

Can't wait to get ripped apart here for being a FUDD....but this topic has interested me for quite some time and I've often found myself researching it in depth so I knew what I felt comfortable purchasing/building. Had a good talk with a director over at GOAL on the subject and a few pointers from our conversation:
*Healey can decide to enforce the ban at any time, and a liberal judge is probably going to side with her interpretation, not ours.
*The director is personally aware of certain police chiefs in the commonwealth that have told their officers "post healey" builds are illegal, even if following the features test.
*Although these builds are being successfully registered, it's technically in violation of her AWB interpretation, and could be subject to prosecution in the future. Doesn't matter that you got away with it for now.
*Sure you can buy a lower, it's legally not a firearm...the legality really comes into play when you build it...
*FFL's are not subject to the AWB in regards to possession. (they can sell to LEO)

Do you guys- I am a constitutionalist, just relaying what I've learned. Personally, I'm going pre ban.

https://malegislature.gov/laws/generallaws/parti/titlexx/chapter140/section121

''Assault weapon'', shall have the same meaning as a semiautomatic assault weapon as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994.

The legal doctrine that applies here is the "Dynamic Incorporation of Federal Law into State Law"

The statutory interpretation here is up to federal courts and federal expert witnesses not the MA AG (The executive branch does not interpret statutes it's the judiciary) and not our state courts.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The legal doctrine that applies here is the "Dynamic Incorporation of Federal Law into State Law"

I prefer "indirect pointer" or "pass by reference".

 

[EMTDAD]

I'm really starting to believe that if Healey had a good hand with all this, she would have went "all in" 4+ yrs ago and prosecuted a few gun owners to the full extent she could to 1) make a name for herself, and 2) put the fear of actual prison into the rest of us. The fact that it's been almost 5 yrs now with no actual cases tells me that it's a bluff.

 

[KAG Arms]

I prefer "indirect pointer" or "pass by reference".

It's actually a symlink

 

[DW357]

Oh, you are preaching to the choir... I am just playing here devil's advocate because this is exactly what will happen in court. At $450/ hour for any one of us sheep...

It’s going to be expensive in court regardless.
As @Grendizer138 stated:
“That’s a misplaced sense of comfort though. If you’re jammed up for “possessing an assembled lower” you need legal representation whether it’s “pre-edict” or not. The lawyer bills are going to bankrupt you either way.”

 

[KAG Arms]

It’s going to be expensive in court regardless.
As @Grendizer138 stated:
“That’s a misplaced sense of comfort though. If you’re jammed up for “possessing an assembled lower” you need legal representation whether it’s “pre-edict” or not. The lawyer bills are going to bankrupt you either way.”

I'm sure Heller, McDonald, and Worman had similar concerns. If you don't stand up for something you will fall for everything. Cowardice is comforting though. Ironically the Molon Labe crowd is the last to want their name on case law. You'd think a case like that would be well funded by the "2A community" which is so far nothing but every person for their own from what I've seen.

 

[RPLHVAC]

I'm sure Heller, McDonald, and Worman had similar concerns. If you don't stand up for something you will fall for everything. Cowardice is comforting though. Ironically the Molon Labe crowd is the last to want their name on case law. You'd think a case like that would be well funded by the "2A community" which is so far nothing but every person for their own from what I've seen.

I wouldn't want to be the first, but if I had to be the first I'd sink every last penny I owned to make damn sure I'd be the last, the whole point of the 2nd amendment was to stand up to tyranny. Seems many people have forgotten this or only care about their own skin, we'd still be flying the british flag if the founding fathers acted like that. We use to be the birth place of freedom, now seems we've become the cemetery of freedom.

 

[drgrant]

you cannot build a post- healey lower of any caliber because you fall under the definition of "copies or duplicates"

Frequently Asked Questions about the Assault Weapons Ban Enforcement Notice

www.mass.gov

Not true. If you believe the attorney-general's edict at all then you must also believe the fact that she has also declared 22LR Firearms is exempt from the edict. So basically you're admitting to the class that you're selectively choosing what parts of her garbage you want to believe LMAO

 

[Individualist]

“Show me the law”

That’s all I have to say about that

 

[EMTDAD]

I wouldn't want to be the first, but if I had to be the first I'd sink every last penny I owned to make damn sure I'd be the last, the whole point of the 2nd amendment was to stand up to tyranny. Seems many people have forgotten this or only care about their own skin, we'd still be flying the british flag if the founding fathers acted like that. We use to be the birth place of freedom, now seems we've become the cemetery of freedom.

yeah.. the problem though isn't that nobody is willing to fight it. It's that the stakes are SO much higher than those other cases. This isn't about getting a license or not getting one.. this case is about going home at the end of the night, or spending years in jail. Not many of us are in a position that makes us willing to take those high stakes.

what's happening lately, is that guys are getting pinched with things like home-built ARs while doing stupid illegal other shit. They're in no position to fight the "ghost gun" charges, the NRA/GOAL/Comm2A won't touch it because it's a loser case, and the grabbers get all the good publicity.. "another ghost gun off the street" in the media.

I'll be surprised if we ever see a pure case of someone being prosecuted solely for a Healey-edict violation.

 

[not new guy]

We should start a dedicated legal defense fund now, with a plan to spend the money on a worthy cause to be determined later, if/when it becomes clear that it won’t be needed.

 

[SKumar]

“That’s a misplaced sense of comfort though. If you’re jammed up for “possessing an assembled lower” you need legal representation whether it’s “pre-edict” or not. The lawyer bills are going to bankrupt you either way.”

England: "We're going to tax without representation"
Colonists: "Ok!"

 

[KAG Arms]

yeah.. the problem though isn't that nobody is willing to fight it. It's that the stakes are SO much higher than those other cases. This isn't about getting a license or not getting one.. this case is about going home at the end of the night, or spending years in jail. Not many of us are in a position that makes us willing to take those high stakes.

what's happening lately, is that guys are getting pinched with things like home-built ARs while doing stupid illegal other shit. They're in no position to fight the "ghost gun" charges, the NRA/GOAL/Comm2A won't touch it because it's a loser case, and the grabbers get all the good publicity.. "another ghost gun off the street" in the media.

I'll be surprised if we ever see a pure case of someone being prosecuted solely for a Healey-edict violation.

All sacrifice some; some sacrificed all.​

 

[Reptile]

Hedge your bets...

Spend big bucks on a Pre Healey lower and use it as your Go To rifle. Get a really nice lower, put in all premium parts. Buy a premium upper for it. "Register" it according to written law.

Then as you accumulate more money, buy whatever other lowers you want. Buy all you favorite brands. Just don't make them into complete rifles, yet. Store them, bury them, hide them in different places.

Then start buying lots of uppers and disperse those, too. Keep some for your Go To rifle in case you need a replacement. You can have different lengths and different optics for diversity.

The point being is that you can only shoot one rifle at a time.

Make it a good one.

Then if there is a Civil War or Tyranny that you need to defend against - build up your SHTF lowers since you will finally need them. At that point no laws will matter.

Keep you powder dry and keep you post ban stuff legal until your actually NEED them. If you keep your post ban stuff under the radar and secure - you'll have it when you need it.

 

[EMTDAD]

All sacrifice some; some sacrificed all.​

I think, given the general political and judicial leanings, most believe it's a battle that cannot be won fairly in the courts. For all practical purposes, a suicide mission with a very, VERY, small chance of success. I think most are waiting for the battle to be fought outside the courts, KWIM?

 

[luckythirteengt]

To note, it was my understanding that lowers acquired before 7/20/2016 in the state of MA were legal to build because they were transferred into the state. As stripped lowers, they are not able to be registered until built, but if they were in fact transferred to someone in state before 7/20/16, you can still build and register.

I would assume the best thing to do is have a receipt showing the sale and transfer date since theres no FA10 record on the lower when purchased since it is not a "firearm". Granted, if they really want to take the time to look into it and check the 4473s, they have enough to temporarily break your balls. I know I would feel better at least having some documentation on the lower to avoid the hassle of bringing a legal rep into the matter while they investigate it.

A receipt doesn't make a difference.when you buy a lower you fill out a 4473 all 4473 forms are submitted to atf and can searched by any law enforcement agency with a criminal nexus

 

[drgrant]

I'll be surprised if we ever see a pure case of someone being prosecuted solely for a Healey-edict violation.

If I could put money down on it, say to bet $1000 against a pant shitter for his $1000, on a 2 year term lets say, I would do it right now. It would be the easiest $1000 I ever made, outside of the waiting 2 years to get my money.

 

[KAG Arms]

Imagine if you will, a routine traffic stop of a Massachusetts gun-owner...

MA cop #1: “sir, do you know how fast you werrr...what do we have here?”

Motor Vehicle Operator: “it’s a Mass-compliant AR15, sir. Here’s my LTC”

MA cop #1: “I see the stock is pinned and there’s no muzzle device, so it’s compliant with the MA Assault Weapons Ban, but we’re just going to run the numbers real quick”

MA cop #2: “he checks out. EFA-10 system shows he registered it before the AG’s 7/16/2016 edict”

MA cop #1: “ok, I’m going to just give you a written warning for doing 56 in a 55. Have a nice day”

Imagine that pesky 4th amendment that gets in the way and the fruit of the poisonous tree.

 

[drgrant]

A receipt doesn't make a difference.when you buy a lower you fill out a 4473 all 4473 forms are submitted to atf and can searched by any law enforcement agency with a criminal nexus

LMAO nobody is looking at a 4473 without a trace request and even then, only with the ATFs blessing. Well, unless of course a dealer is stupid and signs a consent decree enema and just gives up the data (which the ATF frowns upon, btw).