Pre Ban?

[drgrant]

100 pant shitters around here will tell you it is postban, yet provide no hard evidence that it is other than some pictogram off the internet invented by some guy that happened to have a bunch of glock mags laying around. Normal folks not afraid of their own shadow will buy those all day long. If you want to let it go for $35 or less I'll meet you in NH and buy it.

-Mike

 

[NickyB]

Ill buy for 20 doll hairs

 

[drgrant]

I didn't take the ppt. slide with me. I just wrote the dates down with my notes. I can email the instructor and ask for the slideshow. Im pretty sure I have his business card too.

Please do, I'm interested in the source of the data. It still probably is not incontrovertible though. What I'd really like to do is pick someones brain at the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark examiners, but I don't know anyone with those kinds of connections. (I think its a forensics org for LE). Of course part of the problem is those individuals may not want to show their hand for obvious reasons.

-Mike

 

[bdb]

Well if it did have the mystery holes and matched #4 in the pic, he could likely get $50 for it.

$50?? Going rate in the classifieds seems to be close to $100 or for FML prebans. There are 2 G19's with plus 2 base plates at $250 right now. 3 G19s without the base plates for $375. I'd love to pick up a few more FMLs for my 19 or 17 but no way I am paying those prices!

 

[fbirdquik6]

Sounds like the instructor found this picture on some forum and just added it to his slide show. No way that Glock Inc. authorized it for their classes

 

[bostonasphalt2]

it would be nice if you could confirm this because it's literally the first time i have ever heard of glock or one of their representatives confirming any of this internet madness.

right, which is why I am so ****ing skeptical it hurts. I doubt that the first place anyone would hear about anything definitive about glock mags would be at an armorer's course, as opposed to say, the ****loads of inquiries Glock gets regarding this exact issue. If it was released by Glock's legal or PR department, sure, I might buy it a bit more, but not if the first unearthing of the info is from an armorer's course.

 

[bigblue]

$50?? Going rate in the classifieds seems to be close to $100 or for FML prebans. There are 2 G19's with plus 2 base plates at $250 right now. 3 G19s without the base plates for $375. I'd love to pick up a few more FMLs for my 19 or 17 but no way I am paying those prices!

Not for nothing but who pays those prices? Do some research and they are available for more reasonable (yet still over retail) prices.

 

[drgrant]

Ugh. Burden of proof would be on the prosecutor. There's no way for them to prove beyond doubt that this mag is illegal. What else is there to worry about (aside from whatever got you into the courtroom to begin with, which will be much more serious than some mag nonsense)?

The prosecutor is going to need an EW in order to get a conviction if the accused is willing to go the distance. Whether they actually find such a person is another story, and whether or not your defense lawyer can rip them to shreds or not is a whole other story. If he can make the pony look like a robot and not a real pony (during his dog and pony show) then he can probably cut it off at the pass. It's hard to research this stuff because I would bet that (insert some huge proportional % here) of these cases get plead out (with or without AWB charges being dropped in the process) and never hit an actual trial. Your assertion of "bigger things to deal with" is usually also true. If a guy is getting brought in on multiple felonies chances are he has something else to deal with first before that should even enter his mind.

-Mike

 

[atilla]

Not for nothing but who pays those prices?

suckers. suckers pay those prices.

 

[drgrant]

Not for nothing but who pays those prices? Do some research and they are available for more reasonable (yet still over retail) prices.

Newbs overpay for Glock mags all day long, thats why there are guys who suck for NDF U-notch mags for $50 a piece. I wouldn't blame the vendors for asking that
much for them... the problem is anxious newbs in MA fall for the "scarcity of resources" myth. I know because I was one of those numbskulls at one time a long time ago
myself. "Everything in MA is overpriced and hard to get, just bend over, lube up and accept it" - the mantra of a bunch of old coots at MA LGses and other gun shop commandos, etc. Of course these are people who invest more time whining about the price than they do finding stuff and buying it. If they spent as much time "putting their ear on the rail " as they did whining, they'd have what they want.

-Mike

 

[bigblue]

Which is how FS gets $800 for a thirty year old Glock.

 

[kalash]

$50?? Going rate in the classifieds seems to be close to $100 or for FML prebans. There are 2 G19's with plus 2 base plates at $250 right now. 3 G19s without the base plates for $375. I'd love to pick up a few more FMLs for my 19 or 17 but no way I am paying those prices!

I thought you were kidding but WOW!

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-2-PADS-amp-(2)-G-17-SQUARE-NOTCH-PREBAN-MAGS

 

[atilla]

I thought you were kidding but WOW!

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-2-PADS-amp-(2)-G-17-SQUARE-NOTCH-PREBAN-MAGS

mein ****ing gott.

 

[bdb]

If you watch carefully you can find the same few guys buying up AR and Glock prebans on arfcom and then marking them up 50% or so here on NES. Hey, good for them if they are getting the prices. You have to watch all the time to grab decent priced mags because the low priced AR and Glock mags get snatched fast. I have noticed glock mags going up in price recently there as well.

 

[drgrant]

If you want the best prices you need to do business the old school way, the hard way. Make connections. Maybe use email. Telephone. Put some rubber on the road. Talk to people. Particularly outside of MA. In most of the rest of the US these "pre ban" mags are almost considered garbage. You need to be the guy picking up the bag. Be the bagman. Incentivize the transaction. (you're going to get a better price if you offer to make the entire box disappear. )

-Mike

 

[SHOCKNAWE]

Since there is no metal showing on the sides of the magazine I would be comfortable with them being pre ban, that's just my opinion nothing more nothing less but I would carry those.

 

[drgrant]

Which is how FS gets $800 for a thirty year old Glock.

Some of it is noobs but some of it is just because people are unwilling to do legwork. For example a few years ago I was in a bad spot and had to sell some of mine. I didn't charge full rape prices but slightly higher than average free state rate. Every buyer was grateful, despite the fact that they knew what the real price was. They just didn't want to do the work (or didn't have the time) I did to get the good price. To someone that has no time and wants a one stop, no frills transaction, the extra money appears to them, superficially, as a value add.

-Mike

 

[daekken]

I'm not aware of anyone getting jacked up just for mags. It's usually an add-on charge and comparatively insignificant. I would love to see what a jury would think about "well if the little sides at the top of the magazine are angled slightly outward, it's evil and illegal and babies will die, but if the edges are a little more upright then we're all safe and fluffy". It's nonsense.

a.) I believe there have been posts here from (perhaps now banned) lawyer members mentioning cases with just mag charges. Rare, for sure, but I think they have happened.
b.) I would NOT want a Massachusetts-based jury thinking about the mags. Maybe I'm not giving the general populace enough credit, but a line of:

Prosecutor: "The law says no more than 10 rounds"
Defense: "Only if it was not possessed before 9/13/94"
Prosecutor: "Prove it was pre-94"
Defense: "The burden is on you, but take our word for it"

I don't have a ton of confidence that you wouldn't get some folks who would be willing to side with the prosecutor without clear evidence on its status (date stamp, out of business manufacturer, etc.).

In all, you probably have bigger things to worry about. I would rather take the time for find magazines that can easily, with very little uncertainty, be said to be preban. Obviously, depending on the manufacturer, this may not always be possible.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to say "hey, they have to prove it, innocent until proven otherwise!" The cynic/realist in me can't always be that positive. In a fateful scenario I hope no one encounters, I'd prefer to be able to say to a LEO, "this company went out of business before 1994" or "the date of manufacture is stamped here, 1992" etc. Whether or not the LEO would accept it is another matter, but I'd rather be able to start with that from the get go.

Mokdad's case was probably the best precedent on mags in MA that I can remember, but if I recall it correctly, the magazine issue was basically tossed because there was no testimony that no one else possessed them pre-94, not that the prosecution couldn't prove they were pre-94, so kind of a technicality. Actually, it's a little scary--what kind of testimony could someone offer for an unstamped/unmarked AK mag?

 

[bigblue]

Some of it is noobs but some of it is just because people are unwilling to do legwork. For example a few years ago I was in a bad spot and had to sell some of mine. I didn't charge full rape prices but slightly higher than average free state rate. Every buyer was grateful, despite the fact that they knew what the real price was. They just didn't want to do the work (or didn't have the time) I did to get the good price. To someone that has no time and wants a one stop, no frills transaction, the extra money appears to them, superficially, as a value add.

-Mike

Which I am fine with UNTIL they turn around and expect to get that "value add" back in a sale. Then I just laugh.

 

[Cabin Fever]

Anyone have the picture of the u notch Glock mag with the LE markings?

 

[Len-2A Training]

IDing Glock mags is always an exercise in futility. But as far as I'm concerned I would be very Leery of that one. The high caliber marking and lack of the two mystery holes scare Me.

Generations 1-4 = pre-'94 ban
Generations 5-6 = during the '94 ban
Generations 7-8 = post-'94 ban
Generation #8 has the ambi-mag release cut-out in the front of the magazine.


View attachment 165141

Yours looks like the 7th Generation. but I just looked quickly.

I'm really glad that some ex-spurt instructor has solved the mystery of the last century. I hope that he's shared that 'ex-spurtise" with Glock's Legal Dept so that they will also know the correct answer to this mystery.

and we're off...

No kidding!

That pic I posted is the one they showed us in the Gock Armorer course. so its legit.

Absolutely and so is everything that any NRA Instructor says about MA gun laws too!!

glock themself officially shows this material and confirms that the dates are correct?

Yes, sir. I asked them since its obviously a big question here in the commy. They were able to show me the breakdown of the generations of mags with their production dates. I would have to go through my course material when I get home but its that exact picture that they showed us with all the generations of mags.

it would be nice if you could confirm this because it's literally the first time i have ever heard of glock or one of their representatives confirming any of this internet madness.

Sounds like the instructor found this picture on some forum and just added it to his slide show. No way that Glock Inc. authorized it for their classes

fbirdquik6 hit the nail on the head.

------------------------

This ex-spurt instructor (Glock armorer) obviously knows more than Pat Sweeney (author of the Glock book in 2003 - DURING the Federal Ban who was able to prove said info wrong) and Glock USA's Chief Counsel and head technician.

I have personally spoken with both Glock's Chief Counsel and head technician (independent of each other) about this specific issue and they both told me that Glock-Austria refused to provide them with info on "generations" of mags (this discussion was pre-metal cut-out design) and Counsel had told 2 MA DAs that they could not help them ID pre vs post ban mags!

So Maldenqb02 no doubt has now been trained by the smartest guy on the planet wrt Glock mags. I hope he sets up a shrine to the instructor and worships it daily, that guy definitely deserves it.

There is a Sticky thread (in the proper forum) that outlines the Glock mag issue. Read it or not, believe it or not. I even attached the page from Pat Sweeney's 2003 book on the matter.

 

[JClark]

just write "made in 1990" on it with a sharpie and you are good to go.

 

[1903Collector]

I always thought that unless they had the ambi cut it was anyone's guess?

 

[Len-2A Training]

I always thought that unless they had the ambi cut it was anyone's guess?

That is Glock's official response when asked.

ETA: But every week another "ex-spurt" shows up claiming to possess the holy grail and just knows the FACTS . . . that the actual mfr does not know.

 

[LoginName]

I thought you were kidding but WOW!

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-2-PADS-amp-(2)-G-17-SQUARE-NOTCH-PREBAN-MAGS

 

[drgrant]

b.) I would NOT want a Massachusetts-based jury thinking about the mags. Maybe I'm not giving the general populace enough credit, but a line of:

Prosecutor: "The law says no more than 10 rounds"
Defense: "Only if it was not possessed before 9/13/94"
Prosecutor: "Prove it was pre-94"
Defense: "The burden is on you, but take our word for it"

I don't have a ton of confidence that you wouldn't get some folks who would be willing to side with the prosecutor without clear evidence on its status (date stamp, out of business manufacturer, etc.).

That's not anywhere near how it works, but believe that if you want.

The prosecution needs to bring in an expert witness, like a forensics guy, a detective, or other LEO with enough knowledge to demonstrate to the court that the magazine in question is post ban.

The prosecutor braying "It's post ban cuz we said so" is not going to fly. That's likely why a lot of these charges seem to get dropped even before trial.

Now, that having been said, if the prosecution does bring an Expert Witness, and the defense doesn't grill the shit out of the guy, then you might have a problem.

Remember the prosecution has to basically conduct a dog and pony show to secure a conviction. If they fail in doing that, even an "MA jury" will let people off, all day long.

Of course, mind you, this all assumes the person has the means and ability to pay for a good crim defense lawyer versed in gun issues. If you can't afford that you're pretty much ****ed anyways and it's really not worth worrying about... because people will usually suck for a plea bargain to avoid jail time, and it's usually on something else thats a disabling offense, although in other cases it might not be.

-Mike

 

[Len-2A Training]

That's not anywhere near how it works, but believe that if you want.

The prosecution needs to bring in an expert witness, like a forensics guy, a detective, or other LEO with enough knowledge to demonstrate to the court that the magazine in question is post ban.

-Mike

Mike, this isn't a problem for the prosecution. They just need to parade out the same MSP Trooper - Ballistics Ex-Spurt who testified (and filed a written ballistics report) that a standard Norinco SKS is a 11+1 rd gun with 11 rd clips in the case I refuted last year. I'm sure that he'd have no problem sharing his expertise that every large-capacity mag for Glocks are post-ban!!

I wish I were joking, but I'm not. They have these guys in their pocket who will no doubt testify to such crap to get a conviction.

 

[MachineHead]

Mike, this isn't a problem for the prosecution. They just need to parade out the same MSP Trooper - Ballistics Ex-Spurt who testified (and filed a written ballistics report) that a standard Norinco SKS is a 11+1 rd gun with 11 rd clips in the case I refuted last year. I'm sure that he'd have no problem sharing his expertise that every large-capacity mag for Glocks are post-ban!!

I wish I were joking, but I'm not. They have these guys in their pocket who will no doubt testify to such crap to get a conviction.

II know its a different case, but 'd like to hear what a MSP ballistics guy would say about a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip loaded with 7 mini shot shells. Gotta love MA for their ridiculousness.

 

[Len-2A Training]

II know its a different case, but 'd like to hear what a MSP ballistics guy would say about a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip loaded with 7 mini shot shells. Gotta love MA for their ridiculousness.

I'm sure that this guy would go for "large capacity" and if "post-ban" push it to the max.

 

[Romokid]

This is one that was for sale a few weeks back or so on ARFCOM. It might be hard to see as I took a pic of it with my phone at the time, but if you zoom in you can see the LE Restriction on it.

Anyone have the picture of the u notch Glock mag with the LE markings?