Pre Ban?

pupchow said:
The only people who can purchase them new from a dealer are those with LEO credentials, or those people buying from a dealer that doesn't GAF about a possible $5000 fine for selling them in violation of a supposed consumer protection regulation.
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The mag issue is NOT a "regulation" and it is NOT a $5K fine. It is a FELONY for the dealer to sell or the person to possess (other than LE) new large capacity mags.


drgrant said:
It's not case law it's standard SOP for a criminal trial. Innocent until proven guilty, etc. The prosecution must make a statement that convinces the jury to find you
guilty on that count. It's that simple. It's not that hard in most of these cases for an attorney to shoot peoples testimony up.


I think you're confusing that with the ****y memo about preban GUNS that they sent out (that guida refused to sign his name on, that's how embarassing it was) . I don't remember anything about a magazine memo from EOPS. Len or someone else might have heard of this.


The problem is they're not "99% indisputable." Did you NOT see the pic of the U notch mag with the LE markings in this thread? [rofl] Yet most people think things like "all U notches are preban" those obviously weren't. There's tons of this shit. The infinite stash of Para "preban" mags during the AWB (that never ran out) that was a running joke, too. Good luck divining the truth. My advice to the pant shitters is to just carry a revolver, if it makes you guys sleep better at night.

-Mike
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Problem is that most seem to suck for a public defender or the guy that wrote their wills . . . someone who doesn't know a gun from a ball point pen. The case I testified for was one such case and I was told that without my testimony the guy would have done hard time in state prison . . . as the phony ballistics report would have convicted him without credible evidence that I provided. Very scary!

I asked Michaela and the only memo out there is the one Mike is referring to that is pure BS and Michaela told me she took down from her FRB website as soon as she took over the department.

I agree with Mike, if someone is that paranoid, a revolver is the only viable solution so they can sleep well at night.


GlockJock said:
If I had ten bucks for every time I've read this (same?) thread on NES I'd never have to work another day ever again....
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Me too. And it is aggravating arguing about this stuff weekly (or more frequently) here for the past 11 years.
 
Individualist said:
I agree. However you can use it to show that it is something that a majority follow in trying to determine preban, and that you as a very concerned and responsible gun owner did your due diligence and tried your best to stay within the law. As I said it could sway opinion if it ever got that far, which I also agree is unlikely. However I would never pay rape prices for a mag that clearly is not supported by that photo.
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And as evidence, the first question will be about its validity. You won't get far with that picture, or anywhere, really.
 
drgrant said:
The prosecution must make a statement that convinces the jury to find you
guilty on that count. It's that simple. It's not that hard in most of these cases for an attorney to shoot peoples testimony up.

Then later on your attorney brings out your own expert witness, who shares his creds and then starts basically blowing fist sized holes in the prosecution's case by introducing the things we've been talking about constantly on this board for like the better part of a decade, things that introduce reasonable doubt. The things that make the law ****y, inconsistent, and difficult to enforce.
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I hope that's how it would go. I've never been arrested or even issued a speeding ticket so my legal exposure is minimal. I just remember in Mokdad (more to come below) they never even presented evidence it was pre/post ban, just that he didn't possess it on the day (1994) himself and it was > 10 rounds. On appeal (or some other motion) they said the law was ambiguous and that anyone could possess it on the date, and it was tossed (rightly so) by the judge.
drgrant said:
The fed law was way better to the extent that if that ANY preban assertion was made it was to be taken at face value and the only way you could prove someone guilty under fed law was if it had LE markings, there were no other exceptions.
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I think it would resolve nearly every case of "is it or is it not" and would certainly make things a lot easier to parse. I wish we could get this phrasing added in MA but I won't hold my breath.
drgrant said:
What is Mokdad? Do you have a link to this case?
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Jad Ali Mokdad AKA Northshore Firearms guy that got swatted. He had the AR, AK and preban mags, and a revolver or something. Got the book thrown at him and in the end only the storage stuff stuck.
Here's a quote from Len: "It was acknowledged the exact dates that NSF sold him the 2 mags. The state took the stupid ER (EOPS) approach that one must have personally possessed them IN MA on 9/13/1994 to be legal to possess. That was the issue that the judge ruled on."

Here's a link to the thread with info on the outcome (with some good bits on the mag stuff): http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...one-know-what-happened-to-Jad-Ali-Mokad/page6

I've seen both "Mokdad" and "Mokad," but Mokdad more often.
drgrant said:
I think you're confusing that with the ****y memo about preban GUNS that they sent out (that guida refused to sign his name on, that's how embarassing it was) . I don't remember anything about a magazine memo from EOPS. Len or someone else might have heard of this.
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I could be confusing it. I thought there was an unsigned EOPS letter and part of it was about mags and the general consensus was, "if they think that's true, why don't they raid all the stores selling preban mags because in their eyes, they're committing felonies." Maybe it was just preban guns, but I thought mags were involved in some way.
drgrant said:
If that was true (and viable) then a lot more people would be getting prosecuted as it would be trivially easy from a standard of evidence perspective. The number of AWB prosecutions is tiny, I would bet anything that there are probably less than a dozen AWB cases brought in MA courts every year, and out of that dozen, most of the charges are probably dropped before trial or dumped even when the guy goes to plea out.
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I'm even more curious as to what the average LEO would do. If he saw a 30 round mag absent anything else, what would he do? Ask questions? Arrest and sort it out later? Say "IDGAF" and move on? I am genuinely curious as I have no idea. I'm talking Joe Everyman LEO, not "guy that owns 10 ARs at home and goes to the range every weekend."
drgrant said:
It gets very hard to get a bead on how the law gets interpreted at the judcial level because of the low frequency of cases.
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"You have to prosecute it to find out what's in it." This is an unfortunate paradox and no one wants to be the test case.
drgrant said:
I've served on a Jury twice, granted, civil trials, but I can tell you that it doesn't take much to make jurors skeptical. Particularly in cases that involve something where someone
didn't get hurt.
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Glad to hear this. I hope I have been overly cynical.
drgrant said:
The problem is they're not "99% indisputable." Did you NOT see the pic of the U notch mag with the LE markings in this thread? Yet most people think things like "all U notches are preban" those obviously weren't.
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This one's drifted a bit. My original example was something like AR mags, where you've got date stamps, makers like Parsons and Adventureline that were no longer in existence, etc. My point was that those cases are easy and if you have a choice between that kind of mag or a "gray area mag" you'd probably be better served picking up a "no doubt" mag. I added that in many cases (like unmarked Glock mags) it's pretty much all gray.
 
Len-2A Training said:
The mag issue is NOT a "regulation" and it is NOT a $5K fine. It is a FELONY for the dealer to sell or the person to possess (other than LE) new large capacity mags.




Problem is that most seem to suck for a public defender or the guy that wrote their wills . . . someone who doesn't know a gun from a ball point pen. The case I testified for was one such case and I was told that without my testimony the guy would have done hard time in state prison . . . as the phony ballistics report would have convicted him without credible evidence that I provided. Very scary!

I asked Michaela and the only memo out there is the one Mike is referring to that is pure BS and Michaela told me she took down from her FRB website as soon as she took over the department.

I agree with Mike, if someone is that paranoid, a revolver is the only viable solution so they can sleep well at night.




Me too. And it is aggravating arguing about this stuff weekly (or more frequently) here for the past 11 years.
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That was in reference to a G42
 
Chevy 2 65 said:
If it doesn't have the words restricted LE/GOV'T use only. Let someone prove it's not.
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I wouldn't go that far. Gen 4 mags are a no brainer. Gen 4 is when they came out with the ambidextrous release and all the gen 4 mags have notches on both sides to accommodate that.

It
 
I'd like to see some state crime reports on how many people in the last 10 years have been convicted on this exact charge. This will tell you how much of an "atrocity" this whole bs law is.
 
jron said:
I wouldn't go that far. Gen 4 mags are a no brainer. Gen 4 is when they came out with the ambidextrous release and all the gen 4 mags have notches on both sides to accommodate that.

It
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I milled a notch. Because it'd be an unfair or deceptive business practice to purvey or sell a magazine with a centric dominant persuasion.
 
bigblue said:
I'd like to see some NES stats on how many times this ****ing question has been asked.
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The number is probably mind numbing, I don't even want to know what it is....

This is what comes to mind whenever I see this. Or a handgun compliance question... same thing..



- - - Updated - - -
 
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No reason for people to get annoyed about the Glock questions, you got new gun owners who don't have a clue so they join a gun forum to ask about it! The same people that bitch and get annoyed by these questions do it to themselves by opening the thread in the first place lol, then they waste more of their time by posting how annoyed they are, doesn't make much sense lol
 
SHOCKNAWE said:
No reason for people to get annoyed about the Glock questions, you got new gun owners who don't have a clue so they join a gun forum to ask about it! The same people that bitch and get annoyed by these questions do it to themselves by opening the thread in the first place lol, then they waste more of their time by posting how annoyed they are, doesn't make much sense lol
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Some of us spent many hours creating Stickies to answer these universal questions.

People (both newbies and old timers) almost never bother to read them . . . they'd rather waste our time by posting the same question that has been asked literally thousands of times here. The answer isn't about to change, but I think that those of us who invested so much time trying to help out have a right to bitch at seeing the same bogus "ex-spurt" pictures/opinions posted over and over again.

YMMV
 
Len-2A Training said:
Some of us spent many hours creating Stickies to answer these universal questions.

People (both newbies and old timers) almost never bother to read them . . . they'd rather waste our time by posting the same question that has been asked literally thousands of times here. The answer isn't about to change, but I think that those of us who invested so much time trying to help out have a right to bitch at seeing the same bogus "ex-spurt" pictures/opinions posted over and over again.

YMMV
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That's fair for a mod, however very easy to post a link and kill the thread right there. For Old timers and regular posters they get frustrated because they can't stop themselves from opening the same type of thread over and over again and bitch about it for the hundredth time. I simply could never understand why people bother with threads if the topic is annoying to them.
 
SHOCKNAWE said:
That's fair for a mod, however very easy to post a link and kill the thread right there. For Old timers and regular posters they get frustrated because they can't stop themselves from opening the same type of thread over and over again and bitch about it for the hundredth time. I simply could never understand why people bother with threads if the topic is annoying to them.
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Irrelevant if one is a Mod or not . . . and for the record, I was a Mod for the 1st 2.5 years of this forum's existence. I did create a lot of those Stickies that are ignored. And even in more recent times I did post numerous things and asked Mike to Sticky them. Now I do those postings in my own sub-forum and lock them so they don't suffer from 100 pgs of BS following the info (a legit complaint by those that do attempt to wade thru Stickies).

Some of us try really hard to deploy correct info, even if it is for the thousandth time here. We are still entitled to be frustrated just as you are entitled to be offended by our frustration.
 
Len-2A Training said:
Irrelevant if one is a Mod or not . . . and for the record, I was a Mod for the 1st 2.5 years of this forum's existence. I did create a lot of those Stickies that are ignored. And even in more recent times I did post numerous things and asked Mike to Sticky them. Now I do those postings in my own sub-forum and lock them so they don't suffer from 100 pgs of BS following the info (a legit complaint by those that do attempt to wade thru Stickies).

Some of us try really hard to deploy correct info, even if it is for the thousandth time here. We are still entitled to be frustrated just as you are entitled to be offended by our frustration.
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I'm not offended in the least, if I was I wouldn't bother typing in this thread.
 
SHOCKNAWE said:
No reason for people to get annoyed about the Glock questions, you got new gun owners who don't have a clue so they join a gun forum to ask about it! The same people that bitch and get annoyed by these questions do it to themselves by opening the thread in the first place lol, then they waste more of their time by posting how annoyed they are, doesn't make much sense lol
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Using google would answer 99 out of every 100 of these dumb compliance/preban/etc threads posted, though. using site:northeastshooters.com at the end of a google search box input will find most of the stuff on this board.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=glock+magazines+preban+site:northeastshooters.com

We're not annoyed at the question we're annoyed at people being ****ing lazy. [rofl]
 
Grendizer138 said:
For what it's worth I really appreciate the responses you and a couple of other guys take the time to provide; but I think SHOCK's point is that it'd be easier to post a link to the sticky than have two pages of complaining.
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I have to admit that the times I post a link to a Sticky oftentimes takes me longer to find the damn Sticky link than it does to type the response for the thousandth time.
 
Len-2A Training said:
I have to admit that the times I post a link to a Sticky oftentimes takes me longer to find the damn Sticky link than it does to type the response for the thousandth time.
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The MA Gun Law forum has 27 of them, just by my own opinion there's at least 10 that could probably be taken down.
 
jron said:
I wouldn't go that far. Gen 4 mags are a no brainer. Gen 4 is when they came out with the ambidextrous release and all the gen 4 mags have notches on both sides to accommodate that.

It
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GEN4, OK thanks for the obvious
 
bigblue said:
Clearly the stickies aren't effectively organized or we would not have so many of these threads.
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I removed a couple ones that were obviously outdated (like shit about getting FA-10 forms, which more or less is not even a thing at this point) but as I mentioned earlier, most of it is people being lazy. Hell on a few occasions even the shitty search window on NES would produce results. Of course it doesn't help that people are ditching real computers and using gay forum apps that cripple the shit out of the forum because they use smartphones and tablets as a primary way of getting on the forum. They want to do the minimum amount of work possible to get the answer. Which is the same reason they suck for things like $100 preban mags and $1200 glocks, because they're too lazy to do the legwork.

-Mike
 
SHOCKNAWE said:
That's fair for a mod, however very easy to post a link and kill the thread right there.
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any member can post the link...members have to restrain from posting anything further in the thread and mod should lock

i know when i first joined i had a mag that i questioned but i am familiar with forums and know how members get annoyed with things that have been covered over and over...so i searched for the thread and then i saw how long the thread was and didn't want to waste time reading through all 500+ posts from 2006 to the present time and just made a post in the thread with a photo to ask in case any new information was now known...the problem is the thread is too long and there is a ton of BS, opinions and questions in there...if was condensed to relevant links, information and photos and locked then you could just post the link of the thread in the numerous question threads that pop up and just lock those threads...all the available info is there and if anyone has anything to add you just pm the mod that stickied it

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/4944-MA-Identifying-Pre-Ban-Glock-Mags
 
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