Police Shoot, Kill Man During Warrant Search

davemata said:
Yes, it is different, tbh, I don't know the exact impacts those points you bring up have in the two situations. (memetic, never heard that before.) It's on video, and it's in public - will that really mobilize a group more than something not on video, or something that was an even greater betrayal of public trust, the murder of a man in his home? I don't know, and lack the data on it.
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The difference there is people can palm off the police home invasion as "obviously someone in that house did something bad if swat is there" etc. type BS a lot of sheep come up with to justify this crap.

People also have an obsession with "random" vs "targeted" encounters with violence.

Random acts have a larger fear factor associated with them, by default.

My point is, that it's easier psychologically for "joe public" to write off a botched SWAT raid- where the only story being told is the police's than it is to write off someone like Oscar Grant- where pretty much all the facts were laid right out on the table, from independent sources.


I used to go to Oakland a lot, had fewer problems there than in SF. I also know a few LEOs there and I can't say they echo that sentiment, however there is a confounding factor, neither are white so that may bias their opinions.
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When was this, 100 years ago? Oakland is pretty bad now. IIRC in the past few
years a number of LEOs have been shot there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

Look at that chart, there are only a couple of ciites in the US with a higher
violent crime rate. SF's rate is literally half.

That's gotta be real frustrating. I don't think I could live for long within that kind of system without assimilating and getting a free job from Mumbles or leaving. How did the start of the revolution become the mos eisley of politics? (rhetorical q)
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Bread and ciruses. Nobody cares until "it" is in their living room.

I wonder though, how much of the 75% ignorant base can be educated and if not made allies or supporters, how many can be shown that these things don't have to occur, and it's ok to be responsible for your life, liberty, and happiness?
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The problem is as a matter of course, the dominant voting block in this state is "left leaning independent" which means absent some special circumstances, it will usually vote for the dem/moonbat. Lots of blue dog dem senile types, too, who wax prophetically about how ted kennedy was a nice man and have to be reminded that
he's dead now because they keep forgetting.

The only hope at working within the system is getting people to vote that don't
normally ever vote. There might be some pockets of reason in there, but I'm not
holding my breath.

-Mike
 
drgrant said:
When was this, 100 years ago? Oakland is pretty bad now. IIRC in the past few
years a number of LEOs have been shot there.
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05-late 07. I'm not saying it's not a place where bad things happen, I just wouldn't classify it as a hellhole like others would. I actually like the place, and it's affordable.

drgrant said:
The problem is as a matter of course, the dominant voting block in this state is "left leaning independent" which means absent some special circumstances, it will usually vote for the dem/moonbat.

The only hope at working within the system is getting people to vote that don't
normally ever vote. There might be some pockets of reason in there, but I'm not
holding my breath.
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Those left leaning independents can be educated, right now they believe a certain party line because that party is so much better at getting a targeted message out. Only one way to get people motivated to vote, and that's getting out there and giving them a reason. Fear is a good motivator that is being used constantly. Empowerment is a good motivator as well.
 
I wan to keep this thread alive.

So, how about a hypothetical? Let's say you are cleaning your nice Fuddy shotgun. You leave a shell in the chamber and then manage to pull the trigger while pointing the gun out the window. You shoot and kill an old man in the house next door. So, let's see, you did what the police claim to have done here with just as much if not less intent. However, you didn't break into his house. You didn't assault him and force him to the ground. You didn't point your gun at him intentionally. You didn't attempt to handcuff him and then kill him in the process.

Do you think a DA would let you off the hook in this hypothetical case? Bonus question: how about if you are an off-duty police officer?
 
economist said:
I wan to keep this thread alive.

So, how about a hypothetical? Let's say you are cleaning your nice Fuddy shotgun. You leave a shell in the chamber and then manage to pull the trigger while pointing the gun out the window. You shoot and kill an old man in the house next door. So, let's see, you did what the police claim to have done here with just as much if not less intent. However, you didn't break into his house. You didn't assault him and force him to the ground. You didn't point your gun at him intentionally. You didn't attempt to handcuff him and then kill him in the process.

Do you think a DA would let you off the hook in this hypothetical case? Bonus question: how about if you are an off-duty police officer?
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That's so easy. The average shmuck would get charged with manslaughter as well as a bunch of stack charges on things like storage and illegal possession of a firearm (because the CLEO would retroactively rescind the LTC). The off duty cop *might* be charged but would eventually get off.
 
economist said:
Do you think a DA would let you off the hook in this hypothetical case? Bonus question: how about if you are an off-duty police officer?
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Duh, off duty PD off the hook. Maybe paid vacation for a bit.

I wonder if the reason they don't prosecute is that they rightly fear that should they prosecute a cop for what they did, a jury of well meaning individuals would let the cop off, creating precedent that the normal people could benefit from.
 
"When the shooting occurred, Stamps was lying on his stomach on the floor as instructed by the SWAT Team. Duncan had decided to secure Stamps’ hands behind his back and check him for weapons, when he lost his balance, according to the investigation by the DA’s office and Massachusetts State Police.

“While falling, Officer Duncan removed his left hand from his rifle, which was pointing down towards the ground, and put his left arm out to try and catch himself. As he did so, he heard a shot and then his body made impact with the wall,” according to the statement from the DA’s office. "
.......................

So where was his right hand? I assume "securing Mr Stamp's hands behind him". So he was holding his rifle with his left hand, and when he fell removed his left hand from the rifle, which then fired itself with no finger on the trigger. Or is he left-handed, and his left finger was inside the trigger guard?

I'm expected to believe here that a SWAT team would purchase a rifle that fires when bumped, with neither hand of the officer touching it? Would any of us wish to be on the firing line next to someone with such a device?
 
Did anyone notice that since this last press release (basically saying "Oops, accidents will happen") came out, not ONE TBL-apologist has been on this thread telling us how we all hate the cops and we just don't understand?

Wonder why?

For that matter, wonder what MassCops has to say about this. Pity I don't care enough to go over there.
 
namedpipes said:
It wasn't an accident. At best it was incompetence.
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Exactly.
You are in possession of a "deadly weapon" (at least that's what it's called when a civilian has one in his or her hands) - and you fall and "accidentally " shoot an unarmed innocent old man who is lying on the floor.

The rifle could have had it's safety on - but it obviously didn't

Something obviously got into the trigger and made the rifle fire and was not prevented.

I fallen before while holding a baby in my arms, once I knew I was falling - I protected the baby by holding it up and twisting so that I took the brunt of the fall.

I have fallen while holding breakable objects in my hands before - I had the presence of mind to hold them out of the way while once again- I took the brunt of the fall.

I have fallen off ladders before while holding tools in my hands and wearing a toolbelt - I had presence of mind to discard the tools and throw them away from me and twist my body so as not to fall directly on the tools that hanging off the work belt that would have injured me (even more)

I have had fallen while holding a torch before - I had presence of mind to hold the torch away from both myself - and any ignitable objects.

This guy fell - and shot an innocent person - because his mindset was "save myself first" - in that line of work that classifies as gross negligence if you ask me.

Maybe I should go around wearing a blue uniform (or more appropriately these days: black) - and I would be able to get away with a lot more in my life instead of constantly paying the price every time I screw up in even the slightest way.
 
dwarven1 said:
Did anyone notice that since this last press release (basically saying "Oops, accidents will happen") came out, not ONE TBL-apologist has been on this thread telling us how we all hate the cops and we just don't understand?

Wonder why?
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+1

Still waiting to hear some officers come out and say this is BS, which it obviously is.
 
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economist said:
It was no accident. They intentionally broke into the man's house, they intentionally put him in a position on the floor, and they intentionally pointed hot weapons at him. They murdered him, and now it's just an "extremely tragic and sad incident". Nobody in this long chain of police and government incompetence is accountable. As said above, this is why.
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Correct. We would be held to a different standard in this via proximate cause or some other such legal fiction. I wouldn't mind that there are different standards for the police if they treated the extra power with respect and used it wisely. I don't have a problem with them going in guns drawn to arrest a serial murderer or gang banger with a history of violence. I was at a police station once dealing with an administrative issue and they had just taken down a really bad dude who was wanted by more than one jurisdiction. He did not go quietly and these guys were happy they took him off the street. A raid like the one above was appropriate for a DB like him. Not for a frickn' low level dealer with no history of violence and knowledge that innocent people are in the home.

Until the legislature sets down some criteria and laws with punishments/liability applying to these raids, the ADAs will continue to ignore this problem in order to preserve working relationships.
 
terraformer said:
Correct. We would be held to a different standard in this via proximate cause or some other such legal fiction. I wouldn't mind that there are different standards for the police if they treated the extra power with respect and used it wisely. I don't have a problem with them going in guns drawn to arrest a serial murderer or gang banger with a history of violence. I was at a police station once dealing with an administrative issue and they had just taken down a really bad dude who was wanted by more than one jurisdiction. He did not go quietly and these guys were happy they took him off the street. A raid like the one above was appropriate for a DB like him. Not for a frickn' low level dealer with no history of violence and knowledge that innocent people are in the home.

Until the legislature sets down some criteria and laws with punishments/liability applying to these raids, the ADAs will continue to ignore this problem in order to preserve working relationships.
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Yes. If the police are going after violent criminals, that's one thing, and it is reasonable in those circumstances to bring an appropriate level of force. What we see, however, rarely is a report of SWAT busting into a home to haul in a rapist, child molester, armed robber, or murderer. Repeatedly and predictably, the primary point is to seize evidence of possession, and not to seize violent or dangerous people.
 
The framingham police chief and duty chief just left for other jobs, assumption college chief and ashland ma pd chief respectively. Before leaving he disbanded the framingham swat team. No guarantee they don't come back some day.
 
Blooglo said:
"When the shooting occurred, Stamps was lying on his stomach on the floor as instructed by the SWAT Team. Duncan had decided to secure Stamps’ hands behind his back and check him for weapons, when he lost his balance, according to the investigation by the DA’s office and Massachusetts State Police.

“While falling, Officer Duncan removed his left hand from his rifle, which was pointing down towards the ground, and put his left arm out to try and catch himself. As he did so, he heard a shot and then his body made impact with the wall,” according to the statement from the DA’s office. "
.......................

So where was his right hand? I assume "securing Mr Stamp's hands behind him". So he was holding his rifle with his left hand, and when he fell removed his left hand from the rifle, which then fired itself with no finger on the trigger. Or is he left-handed, and his left finger was inside the trigger guard?

I'm expected to believe here that a SWAT team would purchase a rifle that fires when bumped, with neither hand of the officer touching it? Would any of us wish to be on the firing line next to someone with such a device?
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What was the length of the rifle this cop was using? I find it very hard to believe that this guy could be pointing a 20"+ rifle at the guy while also being close enough to be securing his hands.
 
Hoover said:
The framingham police chief and duty chief just left for other jobs, assumption college chief and ashland ma pd chief respectively. Before leaving he disbanded the framingham swat team. No guarantee they don't come back some day.
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I have no info on that, but their armored car remains parked behind the PD.
 
namedpipes said:
I have no info on that, but their armored car remains parked behind the PD.
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It was in the metrowest daily news last week. I hate that liberal rag though so I didn't post a link. The head of the swat was the deputy chief who left to go to ashland as chief. I hope it doesn't come back but it very well could. The duncan homicide put a scare in the town, that's for sure.
 
Suit in fatal SWAT raid moves ahead

Maybe Justice will be done, maybe police will have to atone for their actions:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news_opinion/local_coverage/2014/12/suit_in_fatal_swat_raid_moves_ahead

A federal wrongful death suit against a Framingham police officer who accidentally shot to death an unarmed elderly man during a SWAT raid in 2011 was allowed to continue by a judge yesterday.

U.S. District Judge F. Dennis Saylor IV ruled that the constitutional rights of Eurie Stamps Sr., 68, may have been violated by the use of excessive force by Framingham police officer Paul Duncan during the raid.......

...Duncan had the safety on his M4 rifle switched from “safe” to “semi-automatic” when his weapon was pointed at Stamps during the raid, the suit states. He then unintentionally pulled the trigger, hitting Stamps in the head and killing him, documents state.....

....But Stamps was never a suspect and had no history of violence. Police were specifically told he “posed no known threat to the police during the execution of the warrant,” according to the ruling.

Stamps was a retired MBTA maintenance worker.


All because Mr Stamps stepson was accused of selling drugs. The police couldn't figure out any other way to arrest the suspect without a no knock raid?
 
rep308 said:
...Duncan had the safety on his M4 rifle switched from “safe” to “semi-automatic” when his weapon was pointed at Stamps during the raid, the suit states. He then unintentionally pulled the trigger, hitting Stamps in the head and killing him, documents state.....
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What an odd statement.
 
Bill Nance said:
Not really. The cops can come into your house on bad information obtained through sloppy work, kill you and your dogs and traumatize your family for life and it's just another day in the park. How many SWAT guys who kill someone through pure negligence are in jail for manslaughter? ...That's what I thought.
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But hey, all the cops got to go home to their families so it's all good.
 
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Those were tough to read. Especially things like

The police had falsified information in order to obtain a no-knock search warrant based on incorrect information from a dealer they had framed. After killing Johnson and realizing that she was completely innocent, they planted some marijuana in the basement. Eventually their stories fell apart federal and state investigations learned the truth. Additional facts have come to light that this was not an isolated incident in the Atlanta police department.


AND


It is the District Attorney’s opinion that the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department was motivated, at least in part, by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government. Based in part upon the possibility of forfeiture, Spencer obtained a search warrant that was not supported by probable cause. This search warrant became Donald Scott’s death warrant.
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And some still try and convince us that it is only "a few bad apples". No, clearly it is not.
 

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