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Police Shoot, Kill Man During Warrant Search
- Thread starter Blitz1
- Start date
....and this is why.
It was no accident. They intentionally broke into the man's house, they intentionally put him in a position on the floor, and they intentionally pointed hot weapons at him. They murdered him, and now it's just an "extremely tragic and sad incident". Nobody in this long chain of police and government incompetence is accountable. As said above, this is why.
You know what really depresses me, and what makes me detest this government, this police state, and this country? Nobody gives a shit. You know why you all are alive right now? Your government hasn't decided to kill you yet.
![[puke]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/023.gif "Puke [puke]")
Kicker96FS
NES Member
^This^
If you as a "civilian" had done the same thing you would have DEFINITELY been brought up on charges and the words "knowingly endangered with a deadly weapon" would have been put in there somewhere.
seanc
NES Member
if this were california, we'd be seeing rodney king style riots and demonstrations.
synopsis:
cop "Ooops, my bad"
DA: "accidents happen"
Judge: "No Biggie, Don't let me catch you doing this ever again"
Cop: "ok, thanks dad".
Police spokesman "nothing to see here, move along"
synopsis:
cop "Ooops, my bad"
DA: "accidents happen"
Judge: "No Biggie, Don't let me catch you doing this ever again"
Cop: "ok, thanks dad".
Police spokesman "nothing to see here, move along"
MisterHappy
NES Member
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It's all good, calm down.
No one important was killed, and the ensuing lawsuit will make everything right with the world (he was an old guy!!!)
The .gov has every right, nay, a responsibility to perform this sort of raid. It's essentially a training event, and accidents occur in training. Unless this sort of raid is performed when there's minimal chance of armed resistance, how will they be ready for the next Waco?
No one important was killed, and the ensuing lawsuit will make everything right with the world (he was an old guy!!!)
The .gov has every right, nay, a responsibility to perform this sort of raid. It's essentially a training event, and accidents occur in training. Unless this sort of raid is performed when there's minimal chance of armed resistance, how will they be ready for the next Waco?
n1oty
NES Member
I am still having trouble wrapping my brain around this story. Admittedly, I am trying to parse the reporters words with what happened in this case and the story does not make any sense to me. I was trained that officers with rifles covered a scene, while someone with a pistol would holster their weapon to actually handcuff people in a safe manner (we didn't have zip ties in that era, I'm getting old). WTF is an officer doing trying to handcuff or zip tie someones hands while also toting a rifle???
namedpipes
NES Member
It wasn't an accident. At best it was incompetence.
Sarcasm?
Finger off the trigger. Rule #2 behind it's always loaded.
If it were a civilian and you had a ND while handling your rifle and the round went through the wall and struck and killed someone. They would be a CRIMINAL. OH WAIT. It's about the cop going home to his family not anyone else. So what exactly are the "SWAT" team members trained or certified in? It appears they are certified to be able to have ND's and it be ruled a accident. So Duncan gets to take a paid vacation until it "blows" over ? They kill dogs, elderly, and kids (ruby ridge) but it's all ok don't worry they have a duty. Don't you want to be SAFE.
GM-GUY
NES Member
The trick is that some say whenever a cop shoots anyone - it's a bad shoot and the cop should be prosecuted; others say that a cop can do no wrong and should never be prosecuted.
The truth is somewhere in the middle, but with the DA working so closely with the PD, they will need help to make cases in the future and the 'Thin Blue Line' won't work as hard for a DA that puts away one of their own.
Do I know what happened here, no I don't. Do I have a pretty good "reasonable" idea of what happened - yup, sure do. A piss poor description of what happened and the fact that he has been and continues to be on paid admin leave indicates the result of the investigaton was predetermined.
I use the following as a guide "If a civilian had done the same thing, would the results have been the same?"
The truth is somewhere in the middle, but with the DA working so closely with the PD, they will need help to make cases in the future and the 'Thin Blue Line' won't work as hard for a DA that puts away one of their own.
Do I know what happened here, no I don't. Do I have a pretty good "reasonable" idea of what happened - yup, sure do. A piss poor description of what happened and the fact that he has been and continues to be on paid admin leave indicates the result of the investigaton was predetermined.
I use the following as a guide "If a civilian had done the same thing, would the results have been the same?"
It's interesting the differences in the regions, a SWAT team does this here in the bread basket of NE surburbs, and nothing. Crickets, no activists, no long term coverage on the news, no one cares.
Back in CA when Oscar Grant was murdered after being handcuffed it resulted in more than just spoken outrage, it resulted in people mobilizing and acting. Protests, demonstrations, rioting, news coverage, Governator statements, and even jail time for the murderer. (Surprised it wasn't ruled a hate crime, a So. African killing a black man after all.)
Yet this isolated incident has had little impact, which means one of a couple things:
- Rampant nepotism as alluded to in a previous post creates an armed gentry without responsibility for actions, and the people are happy with that.
- No one went to high school with him, so they don't care, as he wasn't part of their insular world view.
- The residents of the state have been segregated by socio-economic and ideological factors so effectively that they are incapable of organizing any sort of response, as they are too busy being distrustful of others.
- There is so much kool-aid in the water that the residents of the state think this is how things should be done.
None of them create a good picture to an outsider, or set a good precedent for the unique culture here. The last one being the most rotten of the four possibilities I see.
Either way, regardless of whether or not my analysis is off base the reality is that these cops aren't being held responsible for their poor actions which is reprehensible for a group like SWAT, who has received significant amounts of extremely expensive training, and awesome black tac gear. Maybe one day the "people" will set expectations for the actions of public servants.
Back in CA when Oscar Grant was murdered after being handcuffed it resulted in more than just spoken outrage, it resulted in people mobilizing and acting. Protests, demonstrations, rioting, news coverage, Governator statements, and even jail time for the murderer. (Surprised it wasn't ruled a hate crime, a So. African killing a black man after all.)
Yet this isolated incident has had little impact, which means one of a couple things:
- Rampant nepotism as alluded to in a previous post creates an armed gentry without responsibility for actions, and the people are happy with that.
- No one went to high school with him, so they don't care, as he wasn't part of their insular world view.
- The residents of the state have been segregated by socio-economic and ideological factors so effectively that they are incapable of organizing any sort of response, as they are too busy being distrustful of others.
- There is so much kool-aid in the water that the residents of the state think this is how things should be done.
None of them create a good picture to an outsider, or set a good precedent for the unique culture here. The last one being the most rotten of the four possibilities I see.
Either way, regardless of whether or not my analysis is off base the reality is that these cops aren't being held responsible for their poor actions which is reprehensible for a group like SWAT, who has received significant amounts of extremely expensive training, and awesome black tac gear. Maybe one day the "people" will set expectations for the actions of public servants.
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A relevant question is "Should the fact that an accidental shooting occurred be considered, in and of itself, sufficient evidence of criminal reckless behavior on the part of the person who pulled the trigger?"
Much of the outrage in this case comes from the fact that the MA answer is "For police, no; for everyone else, yes".
Much of the outrage in this case comes from the fact that the MA answer is "For police, no; for everyone else, yes".
These stories always remind me of something I learned when I was at EMS.
MVA (Motor Vehicle Accident) is a common abbreviation on the radio and in reports, my department always referred to them as MVC (Motor Vehicle Crash). New people would always ask why and we'd tell them that there's rarely such thing as an "accident"; 99.999% of the time a human made a judgment error which caused the crash. The same thing applies to firearms. There's no AD, only ND. If you didn't pull the trigger the gun wouldn't go off, simple as that.
I have lots of respect for our LEOs, but I also hold them to a higher standard (as I do FF, EMTs, and others in positions of authority). Sweeping these things under the rug, sealing what should be public information, etc just continue to erode the public's trust in our public servants.
One definition of authority is the right to exert influence over others by an acknowledged obligation to obey; as more and more of these incidents occur, the less obligation people feel to obey and the less willing their are to continue to grant authority unto others.
MVA (Motor Vehicle Accident) is a common abbreviation on the radio and in reports, my department always referred to them as MVC (Motor Vehicle Crash). New people would always ask why and we'd tell them that there's rarely such thing as an "accident"; 99.999% of the time a human made a judgment error which caused the crash. The same thing applies to firearms. There's no AD, only ND. If you didn't pull the trigger the gun wouldn't go off, simple as that.
I have lots of respect for our LEOs, but I also hold them to a higher standard (as I do FF, EMTs, and others in positions of authority). Sweeping these things under the rug, sealing what should be public information, etc just continue to erode the public's trust in our public servants.
One definition of authority is the right to exert influence over others by an acknowledged obligation to obey; as more and more of these incidents occur, the less obligation people feel to obey and the less willing their are to continue to grant authority unto others.
Every cop shooting should be treated as though a civillian pulled the trigger. Would a civillian be arrested/charged/prosecuted for this? If yes, then the cop should be too. There is no police privlige or anything of the sort. If a civillian wouldn't be justified in pulling the trigger, then neither is a cop. Likewise, if a civillian wouldn't be justified in kicking down the door and forcefully entering the residence then neither is a cop. The only time a raid like this is ever justified is in the event that delaying even a few minutes would likely lead to the maiming or death of an innocent person.
Just a quick cost/benefit analysis of this raid:
Benefits: If successful, a few junkies will need to go to a different dealer to get their fix.
Costs: Innocent man dead, thousands of dollars in property damage, potentially mental issues with the cop who shot him, wasted tax money on court costs.
There's probably many more costs to this for very little benefit. What is the purpose of these raids?
A few major differences with Oscar Grant....
-His death was caught on video, more than once if I remember correctly. This video footage of his death has a huge memetic effect on a community. A bunch of people saw that video, it was everywhere..... because the authorities couldn't gag order it. A bunch of people saw that video and said "holy s**t, that could have been one of my friends on that platform that night". A video is a lot bigger deal than a sidebar in
a newspaper or a 2 minute clip on the news showing some police cars and yellow
tape. You can't reroll police cars and yellow tape on the news more than once. A video of an innocent man getting plugged, gets lots of viewers.
-His death was in public, not in his home. This changes the memetic perception
for the average person- eg, its a lot harder for someone say to themselves "Well, I'm completely safe from that."
-Oakland is always 2 steps away from complete and total anarchy at all times. To say the city is filled with pissed off people is an understatement. The local government
could not cover up the crime and get away with it, because they knew if they tried to
rugsweep Mesherle's actions that Oakland would basically be set on fire.
I think that's a flowery way of putting it.... the reality is most people in MA don't give a s**t, and never hold anyone accountable for their actions... and even when they attempt to do so, the corruption machine just goes through another couple of election cycles and it's back where it was before.
I think part of the problem is that hackery/nepotism/corruptiion in MA is so rampant that we all just write it off as par for the course. It also doesn't help that any attempts to end these kinds of problems (at least, attempts to do so within the framework of the system in MA) usually end in failure, which has a huge demoralizing effect. "The people" in MA only get a handful of victories.
The fact that the voter base here is like 75% ignorant moonbats and public sector union employees and their paid minions, doesn't help things either. It leaves the 25% that give a s**t basically powerless, because they are effectively suppressed by mob rule. "The Machine" controls everything in this state, not the citizens.
As I said before, nothing major will ever change in MA unless technicals roll on the common.
-Mike
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Yes, it is different, tbh, I don't know the exact impacts those points you bring up have in the two situations. (memetic, never heard that before.) It's on video, and it's in public - will that really mobilize a group more than something not on video, or something that was an even greater betrayal of public trust, the murder of a man in his home? I don't know, and lack the data on it.
I used to go to Oakland a lot, had fewer problems there than in SF. I also know a few LEOs there and I can't say they echo that sentiment, however there is a confounding factor, neither are white so that may bias their opinions.
I constantly edit my posts for that reason.
That's gotta be real frustrating. I don't think I could live for long within that kind of system without assimilating and getting a free job from Mumbles or leaving. How did the start of the revolution become the mos eisley of politics? (rhetorical q)
I wonder though, how much of the 75% ignorant base can be educated and if not made allies or supporters, how many can be shown that these things don't have to occur, and it's ok to be responsible for your life, liberty, and happiness?
". Duncan had decided to secure Stamps’ hands behind his back and check him for weapons, when he lost his balance, according to the investigation by the DA’s office and Massachusetts State Police.
“While falling, Officer Duncan removed his left hand from his rifle, which was pointing down towards the ground, and put his left arm out to try and catch himself. As he did so, he heard a shot and then his body made impact with the wall,”"
I wonder how fat this cop is if he loses his balance by simply leaning forward
“While falling, Officer Duncan removed his left hand from his rifle, which was pointing down towards the ground, and put his left arm out to try and catch himself. As he did so, he heard a shot and then his body made impact with the wall,”"
I wonder how fat this cop is if he loses his balance by simply leaning forward
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"Heard a shot" rather than "the officer's weapon discharged" - the old "externalize it" spin. It reminds me of the outplacement specialists who counseled employees being terminated "Never say I was layed off; always say XYS had a layoff...externalize and depersonalize the fact that it was you it happened to".
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