Pistol found in backpack at daycare

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.4%
61   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
52,551
Likes
10,841
Location
90% in NH
I could be wrong, but Commonwealth v Cruz is (I think) still the binding precedent on whether daycares are GFZs, and they are. Sprouts is licensed by DESE. My feeling is that the employees didn’t have a choice but to report the gun.
Comm v. Cruz was about some guy with pot and a rock parked in front of a hydrant in Boston. at least that is the SJC case that came up in a search.

I know nothing about Sprouts and DESE, but a daycare (regardless of who licenses it) does NOT meet the definition of a "school" wrt the anti-gun laws in Mass.

I get that. But I assume this case is clearer-cut than that: he lives in Massachusetts. We all know he violated storage laws, transport laws, and GFZ. If he has an LTC, we also know he's been trained on all those laws; he's not ignorant of their application.
I addressed the GFZ issue above. I wish the part I bolded was true, but it simply isn't. Very few MSP Certified BFS instructors teach much (correct) gun law info. And most folks don't absorb even 10% of it. I base that on the tons of PMs and Emails I've received over the years from LTC holders who are seriously clueless about the Mass laws, plus the many postings here on NES since we started the forum.

Was the daycare a recognized school for the purpose of MGL?
No it is not.

Lol, well, some know you have to be 110% careful, then there's the other like 65% that take the diploma mill ltc course (or got grandfathered from some exemption) and forget everything quickly.... [laugh] We're biased here because we're immersed in it..... many people are clueless. As I write this, I bet money there's a guy who thinks handgun compliance is possession based, regurgitating a falsehood at a bar somewhere in MA.... [laugh]

-Mike
A lot mroe than 65% and most never absorb almost anything that is taught in the BFS courses.

Post 146.

I've been to Little Sprouts. It's absolutely NOT just a private residence. It's a chain, fully licensed by DESE, with a curriculum and separate classrooms and errythang. You'd walk in there and think you were in a school, because that's how it's run.
You may think it, but it doesn't make it a "school" per MGL that deals with GFZs.
 

Picton

NES Member
Rating - 100%
27   0   0
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
12,478
Likes
12,928
Location
MA
Comm v. Cruz was about some guy with pot and a rock parked in front of a hydrant in Boston. at least that is the SJC case that came up in a search.

I know nothing about Sprouts and DESE, but a daycare (regardless of who licenses it) does NOT meet the definition of a "school" wrt the anti-gun laws in Mass.


I addressed the GFZ issue above. I wish the part I bolded was true, but it simply isn't. Very few MSP Certified BFS instructors teach much (correct) gun law info. And most folks don't absorb even 10% of it. I base that on the tons of PMs and Emails I've received over the years from LTC holders who are seriously clueless about the Mass laws, plus the many postings here on NES since we started the forum.


No it is not.


A lot mroe than 65% and most never absorb almost anything that is taught in the BFS courses.


You may think it, but it doesn't make it a "school" per MGL that deals with GFZs.
Does a “Child Care Center” Qualify as a Preschool Under the Massachusetts School Zone Law?

I'm not sure it's been tested yet with guns. But a court that holds a daycare is a defacto school?

I think I can predict the outcome.
 

commodon

NES Member
Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
1,067
Likes
889
Location
Massachusetts
Here two:

Dad is driving to daycare, child vomits or has the old poop up the back. Dad stops in a busy place to clean up child. He does this leaning into car and is carrying IWB on his back. Because he lives in a state where people are giant pussies, he pulls the gun off so people walking by don't see it while hes bent over in the car cleaning up poop or vomit. He puts it in the most convenient place, the bag hes digging through for wipes and spare kid clothes. After spending 15min doing this hes late and in his rush to get kid to daycare and get to work ontime he forgets the gun.

Second random situation. Hes on the way to daycare but has to go into a post office. He can't bring his gun in there becuase hes a law abiding gun owner. Hes getting child out to carry him in the post office because hes a responsible parent who doesn't leave babies in cars unattended. He places the gun in the closest thing to the car seat while getting the baby out, the backpack. He has to wait in line at the post office, his kid is upset and screaming the whole time. He gets back in car and because of calming the kid he forgets the gun was in the bag.

How many more innocuous situations where children distract parents would you like me to post? Because babies/toddlers have thousands of ways of making parents forget things. I have three kids, any idea how many times I've burnt dinner because a kid puked or pooped all over the place, or was screaming bloody murder for little to no reason?
In both of the scenarios you have described as well as what would be applicable to any others, I would place my weapon in the lock box I keep in my vehicle. Under no circumstances would I ever place a weapon into a bag for "convenience".

IMO the scenarios or any others you could come up with would never justify the actions of placing a firearm into a diaper bag. And if no lock box were present, then perhaps placing under the seat of the car, but even that would not be wise or legal.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 42!

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.4%
61   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
52,551
Likes
10,841
Location
90% in NH
Does a “Child Care Center” Qualify as a Preschool Under the Massachusetts School Zone Law?

I'm not sure it's been tested yet with guns. But a court that holds a daycare is a defacto school?

I think I can predict the outcome.
Although I could see some Mass Marsupial judge trying to twist the law to meet their political agenda, this wouldn't stand up.

The words I bolded below are the problem for the antis. Unless they create a new dictionary, a pre-school or day care center just doesn't meet any common definition of "elementary school".

Here's MGL C. 269 S. 10 (j) quoted from Glidden's book:

Carrying a firearm on school grounds
(j) For the purposes of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged.
Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer and notwithstanding any license obtained by the person pursuant to chapter 140, carries on the person a firearm, loaded or unloaded, or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of the elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or both. A law enforcement officer may arrest without a warrant and detain a person found carrying a firearm in violation of this paragraph.
Classification: Misdemeanor
Penalty: Up to 2 years in HOC or by a fine of up to $1000 or both
Right of Arrest: Statutory right of arrest

Failure to report carrying a firearm on school grounds
Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university that fails to report a violation of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than $500.
Classification: Misdemeanor
Penalty: Fine of up to $500
Right of Arrest: No
 

Picton

NES Member
Rating - 100%
27   0   0
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
12,478
Likes
12,928
Location
MA
Thanks, Len. My most important assertion from the start: “I could be wrong, but...”
 

Varmint

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
15,370
Likes
7,458
Location
North Shore, MA
One of the interesting things about certain kinds of mistake. Ther person who makes such a mistake becomes one of the least likely person to ever make that mistake again, but the system treats them like they are more likely to.

I had a medical tech screw something up and I lost some blood. The facility offered to ban that person from ever attending to me again. I told the manager "Why would I want that? He is the one person on your staff who will never make that mistake again."
Great post except one thing. If the "person" is the government, they'll make that mistake again.
 
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
828
Likes
504
Maybe Dad and lad have matching backpacks. LOL


Here two:

Dad is driving to daycare, child vomits or has the old poop up the back. Dad stops in a busy place to clean up child. He does this leaning into car and is carrying IWB on his back. Because he lives in a state where people are giant pussies, he pulls the gun off so people walking by don't see it while hes bent over in the car cleaning up poop or vomit. He puts it in the most convenient place, the bag hes digging through for wipes and spare kid clothes. After spending 15min doing this hes late and in his rush to get kid to daycare and get to work ontime he forgets the gun.

Second random situation. Hes on the way to daycare but has to go into a post office. He can't bring his gun in there becuase hes a law abiding gun owner. Hes getting child out to carry him in the post office because hes a responsible parent who doesn't leave babies in cars unattended. He places the gun in the closest thing to the car seat while getting the baby out, the backpack. He has to wait in line at the post office, his kid is upset and screaming the whole time. He gets back in car and because of calming the kid he forgets the gun was in the bag.

How many more innocuous situations where children distract parents would you like me to post? Because babies/toddlers have thousands of ways of making parents forget things. I have three kids, any idea how many times I've burnt dinner because a kid puked or pooped all over the place, or was screaming bloody murder for little to no reason?
 

Attachments

Varmint

NES Member
Rating - 100%
9   0   0
Joined
Jul 5, 2014
Messages
15,370
Likes
7,458
Location
North Shore, MA
In both of the scenarios you have described as well as what would be applicable to any others, I would place my weapon in the lock box I keep in my vehicle. Under no circumstances would I ever place a weapon into a bag for "convenience".

IMO the scenarios or any others you could come up with would never justify the actions of placing a firearm into a diaper bag. And if no lock box were present, then perhaps placing under the seat of the car, but even that would not be wise or legal.
You never put a gun in a bag on way to the range?

We don't know it was a diaper bag. Kids over the age of 2 usually bring backpacks, and not necessarily Spider-Man or Pikachu bags, my kids have generic looking bags. He probably put his gun in the wrong bag.
 

swatgig

NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
5,652
Likes
5,883
Location
In the shallow end of the gene pool
Although I could see some Mass Marsupial judge trying to twist the law to meet their political agenda, this wouldn't stand up.
You have WAAAY too much faith in the judicial system. The poor slob will be offered a deal where he becomes a prohibited person but avoids jail and waives his right to appeal.
 

Len-2A Training

Instructor
Instructor
NES Life Member
NES Member
Rating - 98.4%
61   1   0
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
52,551
Likes
10,841
Location
90% in NH
You have WAAAY too much faith in the judicial system. The poor slob will be offered a deal where he becomes a prohibited person but avoids jail and waives his right to appeal.
Sadly true. I was addressing it from the point of view of an appellate court maybe 5 yrs after the initial arrest. :(
 

commodon

NES Member
Rating - 100%
2   0   0
Joined
May 27, 2017
Messages
1,067
Likes
889
Location
Massachusetts
You never put a gun in a bag on way to the range?
Of course and the process I follow goes something like this: weapon(s) come out of safe(s), weapon(s) have trigger locks added, weapon(s) go into a range bag, and range bag goes into the trunk. At no time have I ever placed a weapon in my children's diaper bag, backpack or any other bag other than what was intended.

We don't know it was a diaper bag. Kids over the age of 2 usually bring backpacks, and not necessarily Spider-Man or Pikachu bags, my kids have generic looking bags. He probably put his gun in the wrong bag.
Regardless of it being a diaper bag, backpack, or any sort of bag, the fact he placed a weapon into the "wrong" bag validates he wasn't paying attention.
 

rkwjunior

NES Member
Rating - 100%
37   0   0
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
2,777
Likes
465
I'm not saying it wasn't a mistake. But to think he should have his kid kicked out and get his rights revoked is insane overreach. Does anyone think he'll let it happen again?

But hey ITS FOR THE CHILDREN RIGHT??
He's irresponsible at heart to even let this happen, common sense out the window, these people never learn.
I mean, to leave the gun in a diaper bag?..lol I cant even fathom why he thought that was remotely ok. The level of idiocy is off the charts. He gets whatever he deserves.
We all make mistakes, no doubt. But some have massive consequences.
Let's say a kid was shot or it was your kid that ate the bullet. I'd love to see how well you deal with the guilt, and the embarrassment at the funeral and wake knowing everyone knows you were the soul reason for your kids death, or someone else's kids death.
Nothing happened so it's easy to brush it off, but the consequences are life changing.
And if it did happen to someone I knew, I'd have ZERO remorse.
 
Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
4,516
Likes
4,147
Location
NC defending a beach
He's irresponsible at heart to even let this happen, common sense out the window, these people never learn.
I mean, to leave the gun in a diaper bag?..lol I cant even fathom why he thought that was remotely ok. The level of idiocy is off the charts. He gets whatever he deserves.
We all make mistakes, no doubt. But some have massive consequences.
Let's say a kid was shot or it was your kid that ate the bullet. I'd love to see how well you deal with the guilt, and the embarrassment at the funeral and wake knowing everyone knows you were the soul reason for your kids death, or someone else's kids death.
Nothing happened so it's easy to brush it off, but the consequences are life changing.
And if it did happen to someone I knew, I'd have ZERO remorse.
Glad I don’t know you. Glad I never will and do not come on my property.

ETA: May God have mercy on your soul. May you never find yourself in this situation. But you’re still never welcome on any of my properties. Can’t be trusted.
 

DTOM537

NES Member
Rating - 83.3%
5   1   0
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
386
Likes
285
Location
Over there
Glad I don’t know you. Glad I never will and do not come on my property.

ETA: May God have mercy on your soul. May you never find yourself in this situation. But you’re still never welcome on any of my properties. Can’t be trusted.
O ya I am sure he is up set about that lol... he’s calling it like it is. And u are upset about that, not sure why tho
 

DTOM537

NES Member
Rating - 83.3%
5   1   0
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
386
Likes
285
Location
Over there
Glad I don’t know you. Glad I never will and do not come on my property.

ETA: May God have mercy on your soul. May you never find yourself in this situation. But you’re still never welcome on any of my properties. Can’t be trusted.
I guess you are ok with loading a pistol and leaving it in a daycare and walking away ?? Because that’s what that guy pretty much did, whatever happens to him he deserves
 

rkwjunior

NES Member
Rating - 100%
37   0   0
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
2,777
Likes
465
If a child dies because of an accidental drowning, should the parents be banned from ever having kids again? Should their other children be taken from them?
Are those my only choices? Yout choices of consequences are majorly exaggerated, and I'm guessing thats for dramatic effect.
How about a huge fine and or maybe or short stint in the local penitentiary?
Accidents happen, but some deserve consequences.
I mean If a refrigerator fell out of the back of my pick up truck on the way to the dump and I killed a family of 3 out for a Sunday drive, I think I'm going to be screwed.
 

jpk

Rating - 100%
3   0   0
Joined
Jan 5, 2013
Messages
20,247
Likes
14,791
I guess you are ok with loading a pistol and leaving it in a daycare and walking away ?? Because that’s what that guy pretty much did, whatever happens to him he deserves
No one has suggested it was "Ok" so you can bury that straw man/dishonest assertion right off.

The difference between the stasi on the forum and the rest of us is that we understand that people do in point of fact make mistakes and that they shouldnt be sent to the gas chamber for a mistake where no one was harmed
 

rkwjunior

NES Member
Rating - 100%
37   0   0
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
2,777
Likes
465
Glad I don’t know you. Glad I never will and do not come on my property.

ETA: May God have mercy on your soul. May you never find yourself in this situation. But you’re still never welcome on any of my properties. Can’t be trusted.
Your idle threats are just forum tuff talk, good stuff though.
Anyway....
The father should be thanking God for letting an adult find the gun first.
Let us pray....Amen.
 

DTOM537

NES Member
Rating - 83.3%
5   1   0
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
386
Likes
285
Location
Over there
No one has suggested it was "Ok" so you can bury that straw man/dishonest assertion right off.

The difference between the stasi on the forum and the rest of us is that we understand that people do in point of fact make mistakes and that they shouldnt be sent to the gas chamber for a mistake where no one was harmed
Well it seems like you’re over exaggerating with the gas chamber comment I don’t think anybody said he deserves the gas chamber or jail time
 

rkwjunior

NES Member
Rating - 100%
37   0   0
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Messages
2,777
Likes
465
No one has suggested it was "Ok" so you can bury that straw man/dishonest assertion right off.

The difference between the stasi on the forum and the rest of us is that we understand that people do in point of fact make mistakes and that they shouldnt be sent to the gas chamber for a mistake where no one was harmed
Who said gas chamber?
Jails and fines are still used arent they?
And no one died so neither of these are necessary. But he shouldnt walk away with no consequences in either situation.
 

drgrant

Moderator
NES Member
Rating - 100%
61   0   0
Joined
Mar 21, 2006
Messages
72,675
Likes
37,173
Part of the problem here is the MA legal system imbues "cuz guns" with an unparalleled level of faggotry surrounding it.

Let's turn this on the end a bit. If this was a car thing, this would be a guy who had a senior moment and went down the wrong ramp onto the highway and was facing the wrong direction, saw people oncoming and then stopped and buried his car safely in the BDL. Nobody got hurt/killed (or even came close, other than save being alarmed by seeing a car facing the wrong way in the BDL. kopsch come, figure out hes not drinking, medically f***ed up, etc, and then cite him for (insert some generic catch all here for improper operation of MV) give him a bit of a lecture, then help him safely get the car off the highway after figuring out he's just a dotard who had a severe momentary lapse of reason, ding, fries be done.

But, in this case, because gun, everyone totally loses their f***ing minds and kopsch lay down the felonies on a platter and then DYCFLMNOPQ gets roped in and loses their shit too, and it turns into a big conflagration with the only net result being some guy's life is all f***ed up because he made a "big mistake, that, while potentially disastrous, harmed nobody. " Rob brought up a fun point in a roundabout way earlier in the thread.... It's pretty obvious with most people, that nobody would "do this on purpose". There's not likely criminal intent here. It's not like when the kopsch showed up the guy said something like "oh ha ha! you guys found it! I just threw that gun in juniors bag to see if I could get a rise out of the broads at daycare when they found it, looks like it worked!!!!"

I don't even have a problem with the state administering LIMITED (as in like, not rights-depriving!) punishment for this level of negligence. I just think the typical "MA way" is full retard, over the top, irrational, sensationalist, alarmist crap. This guy f***s up, and everyone is now acting like his son carried some nuclear fuel pellets into the school and irradiated all the other children to harmful levels. Or he was carrying a can of ebola juice and it leaked in the backpack or something.

I think if this happened in some other state, daycare would have called kopsch/sheriff, they pick the gun up and then the daycare called the parent
and told them their kid was "done" at said daycare because of the gun found in his backpack, parent has to go to sheriff to pick his gun up, who then precedes to politely tear him a new a**h*** because of the level of the mistake, and then gives him his gun back. The end. But because this is
mass, and it involves a gun, everyone is obliged to go FULL RETARD. [laugh]

-Mike
 

DTOM537

NES Member
Rating - 83.3%
5   1   0
Joined
Mar 16, 2016
Messages
386
Likes
285
Location
Over there
No one has suggested it was "Ok" so you can bury that straw man/dishonest assertion right off.

The difference between the stasi on the forum and the rest of us is that we understand that people do in point of fact make mistakes and that they shouldnt be sent to the gas chamber for a mistake where no one was harmed
go green bro lol
 
Top Bottom