Old MA non-expiring LTC

[shamrockjr]

Good day all. Newbie with a question here. My father was issued a firearms license decades ago in Worcester, MA. He never renewed it: his LTC states (as they all did at the time, I'd assume) that it does not expire. He now wants to buy a handgun and is wondering if his decades old LTC is still valid. I told him I highly doubted it and promised I'd check w/my firearms friends on NES.

Does anyone know the history of these non-expiring LTC's? Thanks for any insight you can provide!

 

[greencobra]

Honestly, never heard of a non expiring LTC. I've had my LTC for 42 years and it always had to be renewed. I was issued a FID card in the day that said valid until revolked, but that changed too I believe to a renewable card. Interested in hearing more.

 

[RichM]

The lifetime FIDs are all expired. If he has guns or ammunition, temporarily store them with someone who is licensed until he can submit a new application.

 

[NewGunGuy]

Funny how some govt agency can turn a Lifetime anything and expire it with no kind of grandfather clause. If it's a lifetime FID, then it should stay as such just not hand anymore out. The entire system in this country needs to be aborted!!

Charles.

 

[RichM]

I found this information on an old page on the Town of Uxbridge's website:

[SIZE=+1]Expiration of Current Cards [/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]FID cards issued prior to October 21, 1998 expire according to the following schedule: [/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]- If the licensee’s birthday is between July 1 - December 31, it expires on his/her birthday in 1999. [/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+1]- If the licensee’s birthday is between Jan 1 – June 30, it expires on his/her birthday in 2000. [/SIZE]
​

 

[shamrockjr]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate the sage feedback. After further investigation I have confirmed it is an FID card that my father has. Given that he lives in Worcester I fear he has a long, hard and expensive road to trek before (and IF) he secures that evasive LTC. Man, do I wish I could uproot to a real state like Texas!

 

[nullpointer]

I also had a "non-expiring" FID card Issued from Worcester in the early 90's. I moved overseas for a while, and when I came back to Mass in 2008, and tried to use it, I was denied. I couldn't get it renewed either, and had to file all over again (for an LTC this time).

 

[Joos]

My father has his. They told him to take the $100 safety course, and then fill out the $100 application. He was trained to shoot at a Federal training facility

 

[Gibbs]

The lifetime FIDs are all expired....

Yes. Welcome to Massachusetts.

I kept mine, just for the irony.

 

[WanMan99]

My father has his. They told him to take the $100 safety course, and then fill out the $100 application. He was trained to shoot at a Federal training facility

I ran into this as my "lifetime" FID expired as well. I took the safety course and got my LTC.. However I did learn that I was still in the computer and the did a simple "upgrade" of the FID to a LTC-A and I did not need to take the safety course (glad I did anyways). Your results may vary, but check with your local licensing officer before you tell your dad to take the course.

 

[MisterHappy]

OP:

If you have an LTC/FID, take possession of your dad's firearms immediately, as he's not in lawful possession of them, and will not be until he's properly relicensed. That applies to all ammo, too.

If you do not have the license, find someone that does. I'm not saying "sell" them - that leads to other entertainment - but just take them and properly store them.


Oh, and just to be clear - the general wording on the old FIDs was "Indefinite unless suspended or revoked" (at least all the ones I've had and seen) so, they revoked it.

 

[enbloc]

I'd check the date on the milk in his fridge too...

 

[Kevlar]

I ran into this as my "lifetime" FID expired as well. I took the safety course and got my LTC.. However I did learn that I was still in the computer and the did a simple "upgrade" of the FID to a LTC-A and I did not need to take the safety course (glad I did anyways). Your results may vary, but check with your local licensing officer before you tell your dad to take the course.

Yes, technically it's a renewal, and one who's FID was valid on 6/1/98 is not required to take a safety course...

(1.)Applicability.

a.) Any person lawfully licensed with a FID card on June 1, 1998 shall not be required to complete the statutorily required BFS course or submit a BFS certificate for:​

1.) subsequent FID card renewals; or
2.) subsequent LTC licensure and renewals.​

http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/source/mass/cmr/cmrtext/515CMR3.pdf

If he has guns or ammunition, temporarily store them with someone who is licensed until he can submit a new application.

If you have an LTC/FID, take possession of your dad's firearms immediately, as he's not in lawful possession of them, and will not be until he's properly relicensed. That applies to all ammo, too.

If you do not have the license, find someone that does. I'm not saying "sell" them - that leads to other entertainment - but just take them and properly store them.

QFT. This is very important.

 

[dwarven1]

Thank you everyone. I appreciate the sage feedback. After further investigation I have confirmed it is an FID card that my father has. Given that he lives in Worcester I fear he has a long, hard and expensive road to trek before (and IF) he secures that evasive LTC. Man, do I wish I could uproot to a real state like Texas!

Not necessarily; since he has that old FID, he is exempt from the requirement to take a safety class. It'll cost him exactly $100 for that new LTC. Whether or not it will let him carry... is entirely up to Chief Gemme and how his hemorrhoids feel that day.

OP:

If you have an LTC/FID, take possession of your dad's firearms immediately, as he's not in lawful possession of them, and will not be until he's properly relicensed. That applies to all ammo, too.

This.




Disclaimer: I do not know if Chief Gemme actually has hemorrhoids; I suspect he doesn't, as he strikes me as a perfect a**h***.

 

[fshalor]

OP:


Oh, and just to be clear - the general wording on the old FIDs was "Indefinite unless suspended or revoked" (at least all the ones I've had and seen) so, they revoked it.

And... that clause triggers my fear. How do you then answer the question about "If you've had your licence taken away"? I guess that must be a "yes". I guess it's just one more wording glitch in the laws.

Suspended, revoked or expired. In one place it looks like "expired" translates to "instantly revolked", and that triggers the appeal clause or you must surrender everything. Fun.

Who the heck thought up these things?

 

[Kevlar]

And... that clause triggers my fear. How do you then answer the question about "If you've had your licence taken away"? I guess that must be a "yes".

No, it's expired...

SECTION 73. (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of any general or special law, rule or regulation to the contrary, all firearm identification cards issued under section 129B of chapter 140 of the General Laws and all licenses to carry firearms issued under section 131 of said chapter 140 prior to the effective date of this act shall expire on the following schedule:...

Session Laws: CHAPTER 180 of the Acts of 1998

 

[OfficerObie59]

Say what you will about Gemme--I have no love for the man--but Worcester has been reported to have been issuing non-restricted LTC's as of late. Though all those reports were prior to Dec. 14th...

 

[Obie1]

Yep, I've got a nonexpiring FID somewhere. Remember, nothing politicians say can be taken as the truth.

 

[MisterHappy]

Kevlar's point about not being required to take a safety course is what the Law says.

What the LO says, may be different.

MsHappy let her FID expire, and the local PD wanted some "proof" that she could handle a gun safely....in other words, a course. I told the cop that she had a Varsity Letter in Riflery from high school. Done.

My point? Cop may say, "You need a LTC Course." You can fight it, but it might cost more than the course.

 

[Chris]

I still have my old FID too. What is interesting about mine is that on the back, it explicitly defines all the conditions on which it can be invalidated. Act of legislation is not one of them. Since the document contains 2 signatures, many believe that it might constitute a contract.

This is MA, so the whole deal is mute, but just more evidence of how this state will alter the deal as they feel fit.

"Pray I don't alter the deal further". - Darth Vader



Telepathically uploaded via Google implants.

 

[Kevlar]

Kevlar's point about not being required to take a safety course is what the Law says. What the LO says, may be different.

Agreed, the IA makes the ultimate decision.

However, they may not be aware of the exemption.

Bringing it to their attention may satisfy them, or it may not.

 

[jeff12340]

I still have my old FID and was told by the PD that it was no good and would still have to take the hunters education course or take the other course for a LTC so thats what I did figured if I'm going to have to pay for a course might as well get the best I could

 

[MrOrdinary]

Regarding the FIDs issued "back in the day":
I still have my original FID card from 1985. Other than the required fields (City of IA, Name, Address, DOB, etc) the only other notation on the front is "INDEFINITE".
On the back, in the quotation from the relevant sections of MGL with citations, I read the following sentence:
"Said card shall be valid until revoked or suspended". When the MGL was revised, it expired.

To the original poster:
Assuming you have some disposable cash, pay for Dad's attendance at one of the Basic courses offered locally.
Then pay for his application for a resident LTC. Even if issued as Restricted, he can still reciprocate the favor
by purchasing you a firearm of your choice for your birthday or other significant day of your choice. Win-Win situation.

 

[MisterHappy]

I still have my old FID and was told by the PD that it was no good and would still have to take the hunters education course or take the other course for a LTC so thats what I did figured if I'm going to have to pay for a course might as well get the best I could

See post 13, where Kevlar quotes the CMRs.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

When the MGL was revised, it expired.

Keep in mind that an "expired" FID provides protection from criminal prosecution for anything covered by the card provided it has not been suspended/revoked for any reason other than failure to file change of address and that no application for renewal/reissueance thereof has been denied (which is why PDs are trained to keep denials on file forever) and for which the holder has not become statutorily ineligible. The penalty for an "expired" FID or LTC is a civil fine (rarely if ever actually applied), not criminal.

Prosecutors are unpleasantly surprised by this one from time to time.

 

[wahsben]

Honestly, never heard of a non expiring LTC. I've had my LTC for 42 years and it always had to be renewed. I was issued a FID card in the day that said valid until revolked, but that changed too I believe to a renewable card. Interested in hearing more.

This is what I remember also.

 

[MrOrdinary]

Keep in mind that an "expired" FID provides protection from criminal prosecution for anything covered by the card provided it has not been suspended/revoked for any reason other than failure to file change of address and that no application for renewal/reissueance thereof has been denied (which is why PDs are trained to keep denials on file forever)

Thanks Rob, good info.

 

[kingfisher]

The "average Joe" doesn't keep up with gun laws as well as the people on NES do, so there must be thousands of MA residents with old "lifetime" FID cards who still have firearms in their homes even though their license has expired.

Did the state make any effort to contact each person with a "lifetime" FID to tell them about the new law?

Has anyone ever heard of someone getting in a legal jam (even just a "civil" fine) due to possessing a firearm with only an expired FID or LTC?

It's not like MA has special police units who go around confiscating firearms from people who become ineligible to legally own them (like in CA). In the case of a restraining order I think they make a special effort, but I don't see MA police departments having the money—or a system in place—to routinely do confiscations just because a license expires.

Or does an expired LTC also provide protection from confiscation of guns and ammo in addition to protecting against criminal prosecution as stated above?

 

[Quiet]

I don't see MA police departments having the money—or a system in place—to routinely do confiscations just because a license expires.

I think it has been discussed here that the police have no justification to enter your home based on an expired license. Even if they knew you had weapons that were legal before the expiration, the penalty is a civil infraction which (according to what I read on this site) doesn't allow them to even pursue a warrant.

But I could be wrong and what I read could have been wrong too.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The "average Joe" doesn't keep up with gun laws as well as the people on NES do, so there must be thousands of MA residents with old "lifetime" FID cards who still have firearms in their homes even though their license has expired.

Did the state make any effort to contact each person with a "lifetime" FID to tell them about the new law?

Has anyone ever heard of someone getting in a legal jam (even just a "civil" fine) due to possessing a firearm with only an expired FID or LTC?

It's not like MA has special police units who go around confiscating firearms from people who become ineligible to legally own them (like in CA). In the case of a restraining order I think they make a special effort, but I don't see MA police departments having the money—or a system in place—to routinely do confiscations just because a license expires.

Or does an expired LTC also provide protection from confiscation of guns and ammo in addition to protecting against criminal prosecution as stated above?

No the state made no real effort to notify.

Yes, I know of one guy from Concord who was criminally prosecuted, had his guns confiscated while he was detained at the PD since he stopped in there to ask the procedure to renew his expired FID (he had moved out of MA and came back after the 1998 law had changed). Outcome wasn't good but don't recall all the details. He testified at the public hearing after the 1998 law was passed, it was held at some school in a small town in Central Mass.