O/C Questions

[Twigg]

First, no I didn't just spray myself.

My wife & I carry FoxLabs Sabre in the keychain size. I choose this because its mixed with CS and having been through the gas house back in '74 when I enlisted, I know first hand what the effects of CS are.

I also picked up the inert training spray. If the real thing sprays like the trainer I have several concerns.

1. Advertised effective range is eight feet.
Observation: Not quite so far.
Are there any similar sized containers with a bit more reach ?
Seems to me eight feet is far too close.

2. Disbursal pattern, this stuff lets random drops fly off underneath and to the sides.
Would a gel based spray be more effective ?

My concern here is with wind drift or a random splatter hitting myself or worse, my spouse if either of us needs to deploy this spray. this leads to...

3. What is the best decontamination method ?
Sooner or later it's gonna be needed. I've found several varites of decontamination wipes / sprays available but does one work better than the others ?

IIRC decon for CS was "turn and face into the wind" - at least that's what we were told to do. Wouldn't water only enhance the burning sensation associated with CS ?

 

[matt]

I bought some from AG guns in Lowel... can't remember the brand name. It shot a good 15 feet or so in a steady stream. I'll go see if I can find a lable on it.

For home I have a fog spray. It will go considerably farther (~20'+) and spreads out in a large area. I did not spray myself either, but I couldn't resist sniffing near the nozzle "just to see"... I sputtered and caughed for 10 minutes... I would not want to get sprayed by it.

Fox Labs makes some wipes for clean-up. http://foxlabs.com/Wipes.html

 

[swatmedic]

Since OC is oil based, simple baby shampoo + water are all that are needed.
We tried a variety of pre made decon agents during our train-up for the DNC. None worked as well as baby shampoo and water.

 

[Twigg]

Fox Labs makes some wipes for clean-up. http://foxlabs.com/Wipes.html

None worked as well as baby shampoo and water.

Thanks guys !

 

[Cuda444]

Johnson's baby shampoo is where it's at for decontamination. Really glob it on to your eyes (Read: DO NOT rub it... glob it.) Then with a towel pat it into the shampoo and peel it out. Rubbing only pushes the oils further into your skin. (Ask me how I know) It's still gunna burn for awhile no matter what you do... rubbing makes the pain stick around that much longer.

The stream version of the spray will usually spray a good 15-20 ft in my experience. I use Punch brand.

Just an aside, even the quickest spray you can manage sprayed downward (ie - a drop) in an avg sized room will get everyone in the room at least an itchy throat and coughing. It's potent stuff.

 

[USMC109]

Johnson's baby shampoo is where it's at for decontamination. Really glob it on to your eyes (Read: DO NOT rub it... glob it.) Then with a towel pat it into the shampoo and peel it out. Rubbing only pushes the oils further into your skin. (Ask me how I know) It's still gunna burn for awhile no matter what you do... rubbing makes the pain stick around that much longer.

The stream version of the spray will usually spray a good 15-20 ft in my experience. I use Punch brand.

Just an aside, even the quickest spray you can manage sprayed downward (ie - a drop) in an avg sized room will get everyone in the room at least an itchy throat and coughing. It's potent stuff.

+1

 

[Dick Manley]

DO NOT use gel or foam, it can be wiped off the face and thrown back at you. And I have been sprayed a few times for training , and the best is time and air, but cleaning the stuff off your face helps a lot. I use stuff made by Armor Holding and Punch 3 it jsut depends on what duty belt I am wearing. Also when you spray aim for the middle of the forehead!

 

[Cuda444]

DO NOT use gel or foam, it can be wiped off the face and thrown back at you. And I have been sprayed a few times for training , and the best is time and air, but cleaning the stuff off your face helps a lot. I use stuff made by Armor Holding and Punch 3 it jsut depends on what duty belt I am wearing. Also when you spray aim for the middle of the forehead!

+1 to all that.

Also, if you do ever use it... don't be surprised when you too, feel some of the effects -- especially indoors. If you spray someone and go hands on, just the close proximity is enough to irritate your eyes and throat. If you're with a partner and you're scrapping on the ground with the guy and your partner sprays, you're gunna get it whether you see it coming or not... This is the main reason cops get sprayed while in the academy. To know what it feels like and how to work through it not only gives you an advantage, it could save your life.

The first time you're sprayed is always the worst because you don't know what to expect. After that, well... it just hurts!

ETA - If you ever get sprayed... Enjoy your next shower!!! Just when you thought the pain was gone you go home and take a shower a few hours later... oh boy!

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

1. Advertised effective range is eight feet.
Observation: Not quite so far.
Are there any similar sized containers with a bit more reach ?
Seems to me eight feet is far too close.

2. Disbursal pattern, this stuff lets random drops fly off underneath and to the sides.
Would a gel based spray be more effective ?

My concern here is with wind drift or a random splatter hitting myself or worse, my spouse if either of us needs to deploy this spray. this leads to...

3. What is the best decontamination method ?
Sooner or later it's gonna be needed. I've found several varites of decontamination wipes / sprays available but does one work better than the others ?

1.) Check the expiration date on the container. Usually a diminished stream is an indication that the unit is approaching old age. The effectiveness of the spray will hold up, but usually the propellant loses it's efficacy over time. Most sprays should do 10 feet or better.

2.) There are many dispersal patterns available. Stream, Cone, Spatter Stream and Fog are the most common. If the unit is for civilian use, I would recommend the Stream type spray. Less of a chance of blowback or area contamination. I would also recommend
a straight OC spray as opposed to OC/CS. CS is a chemical, OC is a refined food based product. CS requires a decontamination, while OC requires a post exposure clean up. Semantics yes, but from an OC instructor's point of view (Yes, I am an OC instructor) it is a liability issue.

3.) Baby wipes (blot, don't wipe), diluted Baby shampoo, copius amounts of running water. If you have a beard or mustache, try not
to drink any of the water running out of your facial hair. I had a student do this once and he had one helluva case of the runs!
I explained to him that he probably ingested 15 burritos worth of red pepper in that one sip!

For home I have a fog spray. It will go considerably farther (~20'+) and spreads out in a large area. I did not spray myself either, but I couldn't resist sniffing near the nozzle "just to see"... I sputtered and caughed for 10 minutes... I would not want to get sprayed by it.

http://foxlabs.com/Wipes.html

Matt, I hope you mean you have a cone type spray for home. if you have a fogger, you are gonna contaminate the bad guy, yourself, and everything!

 

[vellnueve]

I have one of the Kimber two-shot things. It's gel based and advertises 15 foot range and I think it's a gel based device. Uses a pyro charge.

Also have a standard Mace as a backup.

 

[Dick Manley]

ETA - If you ever get sprayed... Enjoy your next shower!!! Just when you thought the pain was gone you go home and take a shower a few hours later... oh boy!

As much as it sucks thats why you take a cold shower.

The first time you're sprayed is always the worst because you don't know what to expect. After that, well... it just hurts!

The first time in the academy I was nervous as hell and it was 98 degrees and 100% humidity that day and they ran our asses off before they sprayed us so that way all our pores would be opened up for the OC. But the second time I got juiced hurt more for some reason and it was the same brand OC.

 

[Viking Kitten]

DO NOT use gel or foam, it can be wiped off the face and thrown back at you.

I took a training class about a year ago and one of the lessons that stuck with me was to step to the side immediately after spraying just to avoid this scenario. The bad guy is going to try to wipe off whatever he can and fling it straight ahead to where you were when he got blasted in hopes of hurting you.

 

[Twigg]

I would also recommend
a straight OC spray as opposed to OC/CS. CS is a chemical, OC is a refined food based product. CS requires a decontamination, while OC requires a post exposure clean up. Semantics yes, but from an OC instructor's point of view (Yes, I am an OC instructor) it is a liability issue.

3.) Baby wipes (blot, don't wipe), diluted Baby shampoo, copius amounts of running water. If you have a beard or mustache, try not
to drink any of the water running out of your facial hair. I had a student do this once and he had one helluva case of the runs!
I explained to him that he probably ingested 15 burritos worth of red pepper in that one sip!

On the "liability issue" are O/C-C/S blends not lawful ?
What about the legality of strength percentage of straight O/C products ?
I've seen some advertised at 2% to 5% strength. Given the clarity of our legal system here the last thing I want is to be facing charges over a can of hot sauce.

Baby wipes are already in my first aid kit, but this is a new use of them for me.

Thanks for the tip about facial hair & water.

...and thanks and a Tip O'the Stetson

to all for your great advice !

 

[matt]

Matt, I hope you mean you have a cone type spray for home. if you have a fogger, you are gonna contaminate the bad guy, yourself, and everything!

YES! That is what I meant! Yeah, that would kind of suck with the room fogger!

I like the CONE spray because you don't have to be so precise with the spray and the droplets are fine enough that they will be inhaled as well as land on the skin. I have a big container of it for inside my house where I don't need to be too worried about blowback. A blast will cover the width of the staircase or hall way at any distance. God help the guy if he has asthma.

Also, the one I use dies the skin orange to mark the BG if he gets away.

 

[matt]

2.) There are many dispersal patterns available. Stream, Cone, Spatter Stream and Fog are the most common. If the unit is for civilian use, I would recommend the Stream type spray. Less of a chance of blowback or area contamination. I would also recommend
a straight OC spray as opposed to OC/CS. CS is a chemical, OC is a refined food based product. CS requires a decontamination, while OC requires a post exposure clean up. Semantics yes, but from an OC instructor's point of view (Yes, I am an OC instructor) it is a liability issue.

Are you saying it is a liability to YOU as AN INSTRUCTOR? or an instructor's informed opinion that it is a liability for EVERYONE?

It seems odd to worry about giving someone a face full of OC/CS when if you had a clear shot and a pistol you'd have put two in his chest? (I'm assuming we are talking about for a civilian where the judicial system will deem the only justifiable case for using OC is the same as for a pistol).

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

Are you saying it is a liability to YOU as AN INSTRUCTOR? or an instructor's informed opinion that it is a liability for EVERYONE?

It seems odd to worry about giving someone a face full of OC/CS when if you had a clear shot and a pistol you'd have put two in his chest? (I'm assuming we are talking about for a civilian where the judicial system will deem the only justifiable case for using OC is the same as for a pistol).

OC has been moved up on the Use of Force continuum. Many Dept.'s have it just before hands on. It is more preemptive than reactive.

Legally, OC is recognized as a less than/non-lethal level of force.

The OC vs. CS controversy opens up a can of worms. OC is basically a food product, while CS is a military grade chemical. See where I am going with this? Mixing the two together just complicates things. I can honestly say OC can be more effective than CS. I have experienced both on numerous occasions and the OC sucks worse, in my opinion.

It could possibly cause a problem when the Bad Guy sues you for hurting him while he was peacefully robbing your home.

 

[Chris]

Mr Twigg,

If you are using what I think you are using, it is working as best it can. I don't know why, but for some reason that dispenser can't get the range. I have not seen any "key chain" OC sprays that have a good effective range.

On the flip side, the small Fox regular canisters are really really good.

 

[Prepper]

I like the CONE spray because you don't have to be so precise with the spray and the droplets are fine enough that they will be inhaled as well as land on the skin.

That's what I have too for an emergency in my house. Although, I fully expect to have to clear the house right after spraying the bad guy with it. I have no idea how I'll clean up what lands on the carpet or walls.

If you have the same Fox keychain product I'm thinking of, is it the one with the funny tab that you push to the side and then down? I'd be afraid of AD in my pocket with that one. Some of Fox's larger products have the more conventional top like the Mace brand products always have.

 

[Arioch]

As an NBC instructor, I got to really like CS.

 

[Twigg]

If you have the same Fox keychain product I'm thinking of, is it the one with the funny tab that you push to the side and then down? I'd be afraid of AD in my pocket with that one. Some of Fox's larger products have the more conventional top like the Mace brand products always have.

Yup that's the one. Never had the tab move, I keep the cannister inside the little case just in case tho.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

On the "liability issue" are O/C-C/S blends not lawful ?
What about the legality of strength percentage of straight O/C products ?
I've seen some advertised at 2% to 5% strength. Given the clarity of our legal system here the last thing I want is to be facing charges over a can of hot sauce.

Baby wipes are already in my first aid kit, but this is a new use of them for me.

Thanks for the tip about facial hair & water.

...and thanks and a Tip O'the Stetson

to all for your great advice !

IANAL, the liability results from the "chemical" vs. "food product" issue. Straight OC is "safer" from a liability standpoint. It was also a marketing point when OC first came out. For the lawyers out there, that is how I was trained.

In practice, we were always hesitant to us CS or CN chemicals in our facilities (jails and prisons) due to the decon issues. Once we got OC based equipment it was basically a free fire zone.

Neither is illegal, but I prefer OC. In actual experience, OC seems to work better and faster.

As far as concentrations go, they actually differ by manufacturer. Some give a % based on the premix concentration, some give the % based on the formulation in solution. The % does not matter when it comes to effectiveness! The % lets you know which formulation will last longer, with more persistent effects. That is it.
The number to look for is the SHU's or Scoville Heating units.

Scoville heat unit - In the early 1900s pharmacist Wilbur Scoville developed a methodology and scale to measure the pungency (heat level) of chili peppers. The system involves a taste test of pepper extract, and a comparison of the results against a standardized scale. To create the extract, peppers are soaked in alcohol for approximately 24 hours to draw out the capsaicin. A specified amount of the pepper extract is then added to sweetened water. The solution is diluted repeatedly until the hotness of the pepper extract is barely detectable. A heat unit rating is then assigned based upon the dilution ration. For example, a Scoville rating of 20,000 hu for a chili pepper would indicate that it took 20,000 times the volume of sweetened water before the pepper extract was barely detectable. With advances in technology, the Scoville organoleptic testing procedure has been replaced at most companies with HPLC (High Pressure Liquid Chromatography). The American Trade Association (ASTA) supports the use of HPLC testing. With the use of this testing method, heat level is expressed in ASTA units. However, because people are more familiar with the Scoville system, a conversion system has been developed to convert ASTA units to Scoville units.

Some companies post this number, some do not.

Another thing to watch out for is war stories.
I have heard many a person say "I hit him with a whole canister and it did not affect him". This is because they used too much spray!
1/2 to 1 second bursts are more effective than a straight stream.

Why?

Because in a stream, the pepper is diluted in it's carrying agent. Before the pepper becomes effective, it has to "drop" or come out of solution.

In one case, the officers dumped multiple cans on the perp, wrestled him into cuffs and the spray apparently had no effect. Then on the way to the station, the perp started to scream bloody murder in the back of the cruiser. It took several minutes for the high volume of pepper to "drop" from it's carrying agent and actually go to work!

Remember, several short bursts are better than one long squirt.

Some states do regulate the size of container a citizen may posses and limit the concentration. I don't have a current list handy, but one example is Hawaii. Hawaii requires training before one can carry OC. However, reading the instructions on the can satisfies this requirement!

As far as getting jammed up legally for a justified use of OC, see my previous post. Many police agencies now put OC higher up on the use of Force Continuum. Many allow OC before going hands on.

Remember, you used a non/less lethal level of force in order to mitigate the necessity of lethal force. OC is not a substitute for lethal force, just a wrung on the ladder to lethal force. If things get dicey fast, you may skip a step.

 

[Firetarr]

OC, the gift that keeps on giving! Like Cuda444 said, wait till it washes down to your privates! OOOHH, that's gonna hurt!!

 

[MassMark]

Having discharged OC on an attacker in the past, I can't imagine it not working on someone. I almost felt bad for the guy - cried like a baby... Instantly apoliogized and begged me for help. I think BD45ACP makes great points. I just hit this guy with a quick burst, (most of it went right in his mouth, nose and eyes). The effects were instant and quite impressive....

 

[News Shooter]

what would Spiderman do?

http://www.local6.com/technology/14478228/detail.html

 

[rscalzo]

Having discharged OC on an attacker in the past, I can't imagine it not working on someone

We used it on a nut job and he just stood there unaffected. I has more affected then he was just be being inside the small room. We finally just wrestled him to the ground. No idea if there were drugs in his system as I never saw the results of his hospital stay due to privacy issues and if never surfaced in court.

We used the Def-Tec brand in a 1.5 oz container shooting a stream.

 

[JonJ]

If someone is intent on fighting OC doesn't work. OC is good to catch an attacker off guard to give you time to escape. It can give you a slight upper edge in a fight but depending on the proximity of the discharge, you're going to feel the effects as well.
As far as incapacitating someone (roll over and give up), forget it.

 

[Cuda444]

If someone is intent on fighting OC doesn't work. OC is good to catch an attacker off guard to give you time to escape. It can give you a slight upper edge in a fight but depending on the proximity of the discharge, you're going to feel the effects as well.
As far as incapacitating someone (roll over and give up), forget it.

Agreed 100%. I've also noticed that skin color/culture tends to have advantages/disadvantages. Really pale skinned people (Think Irish) seem to feel the effects MUCH worse than people from cultures where spicy food is prevalent (Think Latin American.) But regardless, if they're in it for the fight, don't be surprised when it doesn't do anything at all.

 

[Big Daddy 45acp]

If someone wants to fight, they are gonna fight.

Ask any cop. If someone does not want to be handcuffed, you won't get them cuffed. You and 4 or 5 others may get them cuffed. Or, just beat them into submission.

I used to love Defensive Tactics Instructors who would tout the latest , greatest technique. On most occasions, I could prove them wrong.

My point being, nothing will work 100% of the time on 100% of the people.

OC is just a tool, one more option before going all out.

I have a high pain threshold. I can fight, shoot and handcuff someone after being sprayed with OC. The pain is only an annoyance. However, I do have to fight to keep my eyes open. No matter what your tolerance is, OC will force your eyes closed.