Newbie Concerns about Internal Safeties

[TWtommers]

So, a little background on me. I'm currently awaiting my LTC/A and am trying to use my time to educate myself on my first handgun purchase. I have a small amount of firearms experience and have owned a .22 rifle prior to the 98 law changes. I do not have much experience with handguns in particular.
As a left-handed shooter (left eye dominant. I shoot left handed with pistol and right handed with rifle) I'm concerned about operation of slide releases and safeties on my part. I'm considering the M&P, 92F, and Sig 229 for those reasons. This weapon is intended as a range gun and home defense BTW, not a carry pistol.
Now to the question. I'm not used to the idea of a lack of external safety. Part of the idea of a safety for me is that it prevents (or truthfully, helps prevent) unintentional firing whether from a drop or trigger pull. Am I just being paranoid in my hesitance on the M&P and Sig? Do I not really understand the concept of the internal safety? I've not fired these guns yet so i haven't experienced that full trigger pull yet. Does it go beyond "accidental" distance?
Any info you can give a newbie will be appreciated.

Tom

 

[Mass-diver]

Most of my experience is with glocks, so I'll reference them. I have no concerns that the weapon will go off from a drop, the safety systems is very robust in that regard. However, if you pull the trigger (and these pistols have a pretty light trigger pull), the gun will fire. Likewise if you carry with a crappy holster or if you decide to tuck the pistol in your waist band it might go off to.

I don't know what "accidental distance" means. If you have a problem with keeping your finger off the trigger AT ALL don't one of these pistols because you will shoot yourself (or someone else).

That said, no external safety means you do not need to goof around with the pistol if you need to use in an emergency.

 

[BradM]

No external safety doesn't bother me, proper control and safety are the key.

 

[Maj. Boom Boom]

MD,

I believe what he means by "accidental distance" is how far the trigger (trigger pull) would have to move in order to fire. I think he is worried about the gun going off for whatever reason (besides actually pulling the trigger) IE trigger getting caught on the holster, top of pants/pocket if not using a holster, from being dropped etc, without the gun having an external safety.

unfortunately i don't have any experience with the firearms he is asking about so i can't answer his questions.


by the way, welcome to the forum tom

 

[07Mustang]

Here's my 2 cents, the most important safety sits on your shoulders. Any mechanical can fail. A double action revolver might be an option to learn safe gun handling to start. Plus I would suggest some range time with an instructor, Sig, S&W, or one of the many instructors that are members of NES. Short money to learn safety will be money well spent.

 

[Jose]

Glock has been selling pistols in the US since about 1984 or 1985. They've been selling them in Austria and Europe since before that. If there was anything inherently unsafe about their design they would NOT be as popular as they are.

You are way overthinking this. It is your responsibility, not some "safety" lever to make sure your firearm does not discharge unless you intend it to do so.

Glocks, M&Ps, and virtually every other modern handgun out there is equipped with mechanisms that literally disconnect the trigger linkage from the sear or prevent the back half of the firing pin from contacting the front half, or physically blocks the firing pin from dropping, unless the trigger itself is pulled all the way to the rear. What that means is that any modern handgun in proper working order will absolutely not fire no matter what you do to it (within reason) unless you also pull the trigger.

Drop it, kick it, hit it. It ain't going off.

 

[TWtommers]

MD,

I believe what he means by "accidental distance" is how far the trigger (trigger pull) would have to move in order to fire. I think he is worried about the gun going off for whatever reason (besides actually pulling the trigger) IE trigger getting caught on the holster, top of pants/pocket if not using a holster, from being dropped etc, without the gun having an external safety.

Right on target, Maj. Boom Boom. Thanks for explaining so well what I did a poor job of explaining. And thanks for the welcome.

I'm not terribly concerned about being safe in general and I do plan on taking additional instruction/training. I just didn't expect to see this feature removed on more than Glocks. I guess this is just my lack of familiarity with current semi autos.

 

[TWtommers]

Glock has been selling pistols in the US since about 1984 or 1985. They've been selling them in Austria and Europe since before that. If there was anything inherently unsafe about their design they would NOT be as popular as they are.

You are way overthinking this. It is your responsibility, not some "safety" lever to make sure your firearm does not discharge unless you intend it to do so.

Glocks, M&Ps, and virtually every other modern handgun out there is equipped with mechanisms that literally disconnect the trigger linkage from the sear or prevent the back half of the firing pin from contacting the front half, or physically blocks the firing pin from dropping, unless the trigger itself is pulled all the way to the rear. What that means is that any modern handgun in proper working order will absolutely not fire no matter what you do to it (within reason) unless you also pull the trigger.

Drop it, kick it, hit it. It ain't going off.

Terrific explanation, Jose. Thanks a lot. This, by the way, is not the first thing I've ever "way over thought"

Tom

 

[jasons]

Some lefties seem to really hate the controls on Sig pistols. My dad, for example, can not seem to operate the slide catch or decocking lever on my p226 worth a damn.

As for external safeties - I personally would not carry a gun that has one. I'm of the "If you pull the trigger, the gun should go bang" school of thought. The last thing I want to do when I'm in a situation where I need to deploy my gun is futz with a safety lever.

With that said, if you're more comfortable with an external safety by all means get a gun that has one. Just make sure you practice with it until deactivating the safety during the draw becomes "muscle memory."

 

[piman]

I am a newbie as well and moved from a 92FS to a 229. The former had a safety while the latter does not. The DA trigger pull on the 229 while incredibly smooth is a good 10lbs. There is sufficient travel as well. You need to be sure the hammer isn't cocked as you store it and you will be all set. I check a few times every time i holster it. I also tried it a bunch if times unloaded so any mistake would hurt far less;-)

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Baldkat82]

I'm also a CCW newb. Just got restrictions lifted. Anyways, recently I realized that an external safety is probably not something I want on my CC pistol.

Some guys at my range regularly setup a course to run. I checked it out one day and I had my 92FS with me. I quickly realized that the safety on the beretta is not intuitive to disable quickly. I did notice that the safety on my 1911 is in a much better location/position. It's quite easy to disengage it without using your other hand, but it's still one more thing to think about.

As Jasons said, if your going to use a pistol with an external safety, make sure your movement to disable the safety is something you don't have to think about when drawing. It should be a reaction instead of a thought. "Muscle memory" as he stated.

On the other hand I have my G26 that has no external safety. For what I currently own, I feel it will be my best choice for a carry pistol.

 

[mremski]

Think about? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but shouldn't all your thinking about using your pistol in a self defense situation be done before you actually need to? Train, train, train. Pick one gun and stick with it for a while, most modern guns are designed more with ergonomics in mind, so controls are easier to operate (of course the 1911 and Browning HiPower actually fit a surprising number of people). What's best for one person may not be "best" for your.

Oh about the cross-dominant thing: lots of people are, for the "typical" self defense distance (7 yards as stated in lots of places), it's often not a huge problem (just tilt or twist your head a little bit, often a natural thing you do without realizing it). Of course for Bullseye type of shooting it's a different story.

 

[Jose]

Something else for new shooters to remember, just because a double/single action pistol (Beretta 92 series, S&W 59XX series, etc) has a safety does NOT mean you must use it.

The safety in those pistols is also a decocker. With the hammer cocked, placing the safety on decocks the hammer. Now just flick the safety off and the pistol operates just like a SIG. No safety to worry about. Just a long, heavier, double action trigger for the first shot and single action for the rest.

 

[gerrycaruso]

My son also shoots handguns lefty and long guns righty. He's a big fan of Glocks and has many. He also shoots a 1911 and carried a Beretta in the Marines. He doesn't like Sigs. He uses his left index finger to operate the controls that a righty would operate with his or her right thumb. I'm still not a fan of plastic guns but the Glock is as close to indestructable as you're likely to find.

 

[LKB3rd]

I shoot lefty, and I have a glock, and a springfield XD, and a few revolvers. I have figured out how to operate them without issues. If I got 1911, I would need one with an ambidextrous safety.

 

[TWtommers]

It's been a little bit since I've had the chance to reply here but I'm thankful for all your responses. You guys have removed my concerns about the need for external safeties so I no longer have that arbitrary requirement in my first handgun! Thanks

Tom

 

[ItalianBostonian]

Keep your finger off the trigger until you want to shoot something and you shouldn't have a problem.
Like others have said, all morden handguns will most likely not go off untill you pull the trigger.

 

[TheRoland]

It's been a little bit since I've had the chance to reply here but I'm thankful for all your responses. You guys have removed my concerns about the need for external safeties so I no longer have that arbitrary requirement in my first handgun! Thanks

Tom

Since nobody said this yet, the first pull on the Sig and 92F is long and heavy, to the point where it's difficult to pull accidentally, even when holstering (although possible, as with all guns).

Also, regarding drop safety, there are thousands of people walking around with Series 70 1911s, which are technically not drop safe. There are many considerations that are more realistic and important when selecting a gun.

Either way, the real safety is between your ears.

 

[M1911]

So, a little background on me. I'm currently awaiting my LTC/A and am trying to use my time to educate myself on my first handgun purchase. I have a small amount of firearms experience and have owned a .22 rifle prior to the 98 law changes. I do not have much experience with handguns in particular.
As a left-handed shooter (left eye dominant. I shoot left handed with pistol and right handed with rifle) I'm concerned about operation of slide releases and safeties on my part. I'm considering the M&P, 92F, and Sig 229 for those reasons. This weapon is intended as a range gun and home defense BTW, not a carry pistol.
Now to the question. I'm not used to the idea of a lack of external safety. Part of the idea of a safety for me is that it prevents (or truthfully, helps prevent) unintentional firing whether from a drop or trigger pull.

All of the guns that you mentioned have an internal, firing pin safety. They won't discharge if you drop them. The only way they can discharge is if you pull the trigger. Once you release the trigger, the firing pin is fixed in place.

As for an external safety, that can't replace safe gun handling and trigger finger discipline. I carry 1911s. 1911s have an external safety. But I don't consider them any more safe because of the safety.

Note that revolvers don't have any external safety either.

Keep your booger hook off the bang switch.

 

[cb1]

The M&P is very left friendly. Also, in case you were not aware, Smith now makes M&Ps with external thumb safeties. I assume this is for people such as yourself that are concerned about the "lack" of safety features. Personally, I don't think they need them as the gun is perfectly safe as is (when handled appropriately).

 

[Sibb]

Since this is a range\Home Def gun, then the lack of external safety is not really an issue. You are not going to be drawing it from a holster or tucking it into a waist band. Your finger is the safety, so just don't engage it to the trigger until your ready to go.

I had the same problem, my first and second purchase was a M&P 40 and Sig 226. You learn to live with it.

 

[Another_David]

I'm not a fan of external safeties. It's just one more thing to remember or forget--yeah, I have a lot on my mind .

For me the holster is the external safety. So far I've never tried to fire with it on.

 

[TomH]

The safety in those pistols is also a decocker. With the hammer cocked, placing the safety on decocks the hammer. Now just flick the safety off and the pistol operates just like a SIG. No safety to worry about. Just a long, heavier, double action trigger for the first shot and single action for the rest.

I took a class at Sig and this is what they taught. I've always wondered though, can you carry a sig safely in the cocked position?

 

[TheRoland]

I took a class at Sig and this is what they taught. I've always wondered though, can you carry a sig safely in the cocked position?

It's probably safe, but isn't in the 'manual of arms' for the gun. It's just not designed that way. I wouldn't.

 

[Boghog1]

not to dissuade you from a pistol, but you may want to look to a shotgun for home defense. If you do not plan to conceal carry a shotgun will have much more stopping power. aim will not be as critical, over penetration less of a factor. I am sure others could add numerous other benefits.

Back on topic, any of those firearms listed and all of the advise above looks sound.

 

[M1911]

not to dissuade you from a pistol, but you may want to look to a shotgun for home defense. If you do not plan to conceal carry a shotgun will have much more stopping power. aim will not be as critical, over penetration less of a factor. I am sure others could add numerous other benefits.

Shotguns and handguns each have advantages and disadvantages.

1) Anything that will reliably penetrate a person will reliably penetrate multiple walls.
2) Long guns are easier to aim than handguns.
3) Shotgun shot will not spread significantly in typical room distances, so you do still have to aim.
4) Shotguns are harder to secure than handguns.
5) Handguns are easier to operate with one hand, allowing you to talk to the police on the phone will covering Mr. Mongo who is currently eating the floor.
6) Handguns are easier to maneuver around furniture and hallways.
7) Handguns are easier to retain during a grab attempt than long guns.

Each has their advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Boghog1]

I agree with all that you are saying, but still feel a 12ga is better for home defense than a pistol. personally I've owned both

 

[deadhead133]

I have a M&P .45 with an external safety that I was using as a carry piece in colder weather. I carried it in a Fobus paddle holster.
After entering and exiting my truck a few times, I would find the safety in the fire position. The detent on the safety doesn't feel very strong.
Maybe I should have S&W check it out. I'm not sure how strong the detent and spring are usually.

 

[M1911]

I agree with all that you are saying, but still feel a 12ga is better for home defense than a pistol. personally I've owned both

I own handguns, shotguns, and rifles. You feel that a shotgun is better for you for personal defense.

I have a handgun in a lockbox that is my primary for home defense. If I have time, I'll head downstairs to the safe and grab either my AR15 or M1A. I feel that best serves my needs.

Any discussion of alternatives should present both advantages and disadvantages of the alternative being pushed as "best." I don't presume to tell you what is "best" for you, nor do I presume to tell the original poster what is "best" for him.

 

[asquared]

I own, carry, and train with M&Ps. Mine do not have external safeties(or magazine disconnects, but that's a different debate). I like the constant trigger pull instead of transitioning from DA to SA, and I like knowing that there are no devices in place to keep me from operating the gun by pressing the trigger. The ambi controls are also a feature I look for in a carry pistol, since they work for left-handed folks and also for anyone who doesn't happen to have two hands available to put the gun into action. Practice using your gun with your strong hand, then practice using it with your support hand. In my book, if you can't successfully do both, find a different gun.

My index finger is all the safety I need. I know an M&P isn't going to fire without me pressing the trigger, so all I have to do is keep my digits clear.