Nashua, NH - Man pulls gun on of-duty cop over parking space

[Stef]

As crazy as this story is and for the most part even though the cops a douch bag for thinking he's above the law and will park where ever he dam well pleases...the guy who pulled the gun is obviously way over board on this one. THESE ARE THE REASONS YOU SHOULD ALWAYS CARRY WITH YOU. You never know who/what/where things could go down. I would have drawn and shot that nut dead in the parking lot & been justified in court.

You would have tried to draw on someone who already had you at gunpoint and was behind cover? Do you already have funeral arrangements in place?

 

[rlee]

Webb really sounds off-center.
Has anyone heard of witnesses or has he given any statements?

 

[TomH]

It could be that he pulled his gun because he suspected the parker was going for his pocket.

Plenty of innocent people have been killed by (sometimes multiple) cops because the police said it "looked like he was going for a weapon."

The idiot enforcer had no reason to assume the guy was police, and a criminal claiming to be police is a good way to get the drop.

Yep, and turns out he wasn't a cop anyway, he was a rent-a-cop with limited powers on campus grounds only, in a DIFFERENT STATE. If during a confrontation, someone reaches out of sight from you to "retrieve a badge" would you just wait to see what happens? And yes the confrontation was idiotic in the first place, and full of fail.

The guy was getting his badge because Webb had already indicated he was armed and was planning on holding him until the police arrived.

I'm sorry, but from what we've heard, Webb is a fruitloop. Some kind of LEO wanna-be.

The badge was essentially fake, so the "cop" is a wanna-be also. They should actually get along quite well after this incident!

 

[Rancho]

this one time I was at the mall and a guy parked on the grass island ....I got so pissed off I set the car on fire and then I realized it was a fire truck...

in all seriousness this is so stupid, the guy with the gun needs to be evaluated and spend some time in a padded cell.. whack jobs like this that legally own firearms do not lend anything to the image of the law abiding gun owner..

 

[chinalfr]

Yep, and turns out he wasn't a cop anyway, he was a rent-a-cop with limited powers on campus grounds only, in a DIFFERENT STATE. If during a confrontation, someone reaches out of sight from you to "retrieve a badge" would you just wait to see what happens? And yes the confrontation was idiotic in the first place, and full of fail.

The badge was essentially fake, so the "cop" is a wanna-be also. They should actually get along quite well after this incident!

I can only think of this

 

[mark056]

To those who responded that the police officer is a "rent-a-cop"...wrong. He is a Special State Police Officer and as such is just as much of a LEO as any other sworn person.

The car was parked on private property. The only people who had any authority at all would be the store management. The complaintant should have gone there and complained, and the car would have been towed or the owner would have been asked to move.

Whatever happened to MYFOB? Remember this happened on PRIVATE property.

 

[appraiser]

To those who responded that the police officer is a "rent-a-cop"...wrong. He is a Special State Police Officer and as such is just as much of a LEO as any other sworn person.

The car was parked on private property. The only people who had any authority at all would be the store management. The complaintant should have gone there and complained, and the car would have been towed or the owner would have been asked to move.

Whatever happened to MYFOB? Remember this happened on PRIVATE property.

He is sworn as a MSP Special, and a Middlesex County Deputy. As I pointed out in an earlier post, his police powers including chapter 90 are limited to Middlesex County. I would bet the C.O.P. of the U Mass Lowell PD and the Sheriff would not be pleased with him acting as anything more than a campus cop. The MSP limits his powers to campus property, MCSD gives him Middlesex county.

Cripes there are mall cops in Boston sworn as BPD Specials.



When the MBTA Inspectors were sworn as MSP Specials, their powers were severely limited by the MSP and T policy. They were "Street & Railway Police" on the badges, not MBTA Police. The T PD wanted nothing to do with the Inspectors.

I don't know about NH municipalities, but many in MA have passed ordinances at the request of mall and shopping center owners that give them the power to enforce fire lane and HP parking regulations on private property.

Hell you can get arrested for DWI in MA on private property as long as the public has access to it. That is state wide and in MGL Ch 90 " Section 24. (1) (a) (1) Whoever, upon any way or in any place to which the public has a right of access, or upon any way or in any place to which members of the public have access as invitees or licensees, operates a motor vehicle .... yada yada yada"

 

[vellnueve]

Yep, and turns out he wasn't a cop anyway, he was a rent-a-cop with limited powers on campus grounds only, in a DIFFERENT STATE. If during a confrontation, someone reaches out of sight from you to "retrieve a badge" would you just wait to see what happens? And yes the confrontation was idiotic in the first place, and full of fail.



The badge was essentially fake, so the "cop" is a wanna-be also. They should actually get along quite well after this incident!

The guy was the victim of what could be construed as a forcible felony in a town/state he has a retired badge from. There is plenty of precedence for LEOs being way the hell out of jurisdiction and making arrests for major crimes. I don't see the reason for being all hot and bothered over it. Somebody came at him acting like an absolute nut and he identified himself as a LEO to try and diffuse the situation. He probably did a decent job of it since nobody got hurt and no shots were fired. If he used a badge to trample on somebodies rights unprovoked or do something else stupid, Id be right there with you complaining.

The handicap spaces and fire lanes are obviously private property but they are forced to be there and be clear by the government, thus it is a reasonable expectation that the cops would enforce said govt rules. The business has not a damn choice in the matter, you want to mandate fire lanes, you enforce them. So what is your point? Are you trying to extend that to Mr Childs thinking he has the authority to enforce whatever he wants in a parking lot because they used to let him write for fire lane and HP violations? As others have said, the most a cop will do about you making your own space on private property is *ask* you to leave if requested by the property owner. If you refuse, you might be arrested for trespassing in an extreme case. Most likely, the cop tells the property owner to "tow it" and goes on his way. The way DUI laws are written and enforced are a whole different debate but if there are gonna be any DUI laws, why is it no reasonable that you can get pinched for it in the Shaws parking lot? If the public can access it as seamlessly as they can the road, the harm principle is the same. Why the outrage? If they were gonna pinch you on your farm, yes, Id have a major problem with it.

Again, your obvious, extreme bias shows.

This. His use of his badge was enough to to allow him to take control of the situation and resolve it without injuries. Frankly, other than the illegal parking which really isn't a big issue anyway, I feel that the officer seems to have handled the situation well based on the available info.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

The complaintant should have gone there and complained, and the car would have been towed or the owner would have been asked to move.

Or, perhaps given an apology for the overfull parking lot and thanked for his patronage.

 

[Terminator03]

The guy was the victim of what could be construed as a forcible felony in a town/state he has a retired badge from. There is plenty of precedence for LEOs being way the hell out of jurisdiction and making arrests for major crimes. I don't see the reason for being all hot and bothered over it. Somebody came at him acting like an absolute nut and he identified himself as a LEO to try and diffuse the situation. He probably did a decent job of it since nobody got hurt and no shots were fired. If he used a badge to trample on somebodies rights unprovoked or do something else stupid, Id be right there with you complaining.

The handicap spaces and fire lanes are obviously private property but they are forced to be there and be clear by the government, thus it is a reasonable expectation that the cops would enforce said govt rules. The business has not a damn choice in the matter, you want to mandate fire lanes, you enforce them. So what is your point? Are you trying to extend that to Mr Childs thinking he has the authority to enforce whatever he wants in a parking lot because they used to let him write for fire lane and HP violations? As others have said, the most a cop will do about you making your own space on private property is *ask* you to leave if requested by the property owner. If you refuse, you might be arrested for trespassing in an extreme case. Most likely, the cop tells the property owner to "tow it" and goes on his way. The way DUI laws are written and enforced are a whole different debate but if there are gonna be any DUI laws, why is it no reasonable that you can get pinched for it in the Shaws parking lot? If the public can access it as seamlessly as they can the road, the harm principle is the same. Why the outrage? If they were gonna pinch you on your farm, yes, Id have a major problem with it.

Again, your obvious, extreme bias shows.

I just have to commend you on this as well as your last response. They were very well thought out replies, and are very unbiased. Great job in keeping a clear head to defend your position in this debate, where clearly most people are against the retired cop (even though most admit Webb is a total retard). I thoroughly enjoy intelligent debates like this.

 

[Boris]

I just scanned through the thread and read 4 or 5 referenced newspaper articles and the only person interviewed/ quoted is Mr. Childs. No quotes from the "nut" Webb or eyewitness accounts, not even the name of the business. My point is, how the hell you guys figure it all out and dished out all the labels??? I only see a story from one's guy mouth who has experience and motive to say all the right things.

If Childs blocked the guy's car who may had an emergency, it explains why he was waiting in the rain, talking to someone on the phone and may have been pretty pissed off. No one knows what Childs said to Webb. It may have been a whole lot of verbal threats and then who knows what. It's all his story on what happened. I am just saying, I don't see any hard evidence and the only account given is from someone who is probably seen lots of stories like this and knows what to say to be in the right.

 

[vellnueve]

It really doesn't matter what Childs said. Pulling the gun instantly puts Webb in the wrong.

 

[appraiser]

It really doesn't matter what Childs said. Pulling the gun instantly puts Webb in the wrong.

I'll disagree with that as a blanket statement. Webb did not move for cover and draw his weapon until Child's went into his car.

Not being there, and not knowing his side, we do not know if he was threatened, felt threatened, was in fear of his life because of the furtive actions of Mr Childs. This will be something for a jury to decide, and again I am playing devils advocate here and nothing more, Webb's attorney is going to have a field day with Childs by using his statements to the press to discredit him and create reasonable doubt.

 

[chinalfr]

We all just read what reported by media. What percentage do you trust any report from media? 50/50?


Sent from my broken iPhone.

 

[Boris]

I'll disagree with that as a blanket statement. Webb did not move for cover and draw his weapon until Child's went into his car.

help me out here, there is absolutely nothing in any of those stories to decisively rule that Childs even "went" into his car or that this whole thing was even about parking and not about a woman, selling drugs .... whatever. The store is not named, so this entire story is just what Childs said and what we do know is that he is probably the best person to compose a believable story for a police report.

 

[securityboy]

Yep, and turns out he wasn't a cop anyway, he was a rent-a-cop with limited powers on campus grounds only, in a DIFFERENT STATE...

Little off topic, but are town cops rent a cops because thier powers are limited to the town they work in? Are county cops rent a cops because thier powers are limited to the county they work in? Hell since you mention different state, are state cops rent a cops because thier powers are limited to the state they work in? I mean come on we aren't talking about a campus cop from some little unarmed private college "public safety" department, we are talking U-Mass Lowell (don't really know a thing about the dept, but I bet its bigger than many town PD's in Mass),pretty sure U-Mass Amherst PD is itself considered a municiple PD under state law...

As for the different state thing... so if a lowell fireman drives over the boarder into NH, is he not a fireman anymore?

 

[OfficerObie59]

Why isn't he being charged for impersonating an officer?

And if you were paying attention, you would have noticed his Nashua badge--the same one he apparently flashed at the guy pointing the gun--says "RETIRED" right on it. Seems to me he represented exactly what he was.

It's also worth noting that, at least in MA, just because I leave my jurisdiction doesn't mean that I'm not a police officer, it just means I have reduced police powers. I say reduced because even as a MA municipal officer, I can still make extrajuridictional warrant arrests and my standard of proof for citizen arrests is lower than private citizens. These two provisions apply anywhere in the Commonwealth at any time, on duty or off.

Yep, and turns out he wasn't a cop anyway, he was a rent-a-cop with limited powers on campus grounds only, in a DIFFERENT STATE. If during a confrontation, someone reaches out of sight from you to "retrieve a badge" would you just wait to see what happens? And yes the confrontation was idiotic in the first place, and full of fail.

I fully urge you to break the law on any Massachusetts state college/university campus to fully expierience how limited the power of these "rent-a-cops" really is.

 

[Tim L]

Sounds like a case of two douche bags and one out douched the other.

 

[mark056]

It really doesn't matter what Childs said. Pulling the gun instantly puts Webb in the wrong.

This...this is turning into an amazing thread..to cop bash when it is deserved is one thing, but to now talk about Webb reacting to Child's furtive gesture is really over the top and then we know that the press is only 50-50, so maybe we don't really know a lot of things about other police actions.

It boils down to this: guy illegally parks on PRIVATE property. Another guy doesn't like it and decides that he has the color of authority to enforce parking laws (this is WAY beyond the scope of a citizen's arrest). Webb says something and Childs goes to his car to retrieve his RETIRED Nashua Police Badge (and yeah, what's wrong with double dipping because he is a UMass Lowell Cop? I double dip, some of you are always complaining about how people don't want to work...I'm working) Don't you think if he was engaged in a conversation with Webb, he might have been simply trying to tell him that Webb was off base, and he was showing his credentials to give himself credibility. Webb goes ballistic and pulls out a gun on SOMEONE ILLEGALLY PARKED ON PRIVATE PROPERTY: A STORE PARKING LOT.

I could see a thread coming where an NES member parks in a Wal-Mart parking lot and somebody has a case of the ass because they didn't park exactly between the lines (in other words dead center in the middle of the space) and somebody starts yelling at them and blocking their egress (which apparently is what happened in this instance). I think we would get some really interesting responses from some of the trigger-happy bitch slappers that seem to come out of the woodwork when threads like this appear.

Now it seems to me, IF ACCURATELY REPORTED, that Childs was trying to de-escalate the situation, because that is what he was trained to do. A lot of you seem to think that is what we must do to resolve interpersonal conflicts because remember: "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." Instead, Webb goes apeshit and pulls a gun on Childs...at no point are there any indicators that Childs is armed.

Now in retrospect we all know what Childs should have done: locked himself in his car and called the police...like a good sheeple, because the police are our friends and they will make it a priority call when we report that some man is yelling at us for illegally parking in a PRIVATE store parking lot and is ranting and not letting us leave. No doubt the entire shift of the NPD would have come rushing to the parking lot.

Much has been said of Webb's clean record....maybe so, but there is a first time for everything and a lot of people are being pushed over the brink. There is a lot of frustration and anger out there...don't believe it? Then read this forum.

Some of the comments posted are absolutely retarded. I am not great fan of the police (read some of my posts) but to cop bash when somebody pulls a gun on someone else with no justification is absolutely...for lack of a better term: out there.

Yeah there is some speculation here, but who is to say that my speculation is any less valid than some of yours.

 

[vellnueve]

That is the most well-written and thoughtful response I've seen in a while.

 

[Boris]

... Now it seems to me, IF ACCURATELY REPORTED, ...

the only thing that's accurately reported is Childs' version of events. I don't see any interviews from witnesses, the business or even the police accident report. If Webb is only talking to his lawyer, he may be far more intelligent than anyone here who is making this story up then passing judgement on the characters in their own fiction.

 

[Bfatz]

He should have pulled one of these instead.

 

[Terminator03]

Well, the silliest part of the whole story is that even if Webb was ducking for cover, and drawing his firearm because of a perceived threat from Childs, he was still dead wrong, because HE PROVOKED THAT WHOLE SITUATION! That is the bottom line which will ultimately be his demise when this goes to court, regardless of whether his defense attorney tries to paint Childs as impersonating an officer, or any other b.s. smokescreen. Now, if the situation were reversed, and Childs was pretending to be a police officer trying to detain a citizen for illegally parking, then Webb's defense team would have a bit more traction discrediting the officer out of his jurisdiction, but the way it is in this story, I doubt that anyone will really care at all whether Childs had even been a cop, or if his badge was valid.

What I found interesting was how many people on here pointed out Childs "fake cop", "rent-a-cop", "impersonating an officer", etc., as if that somehow justified Webb's actions. The ONLY thing at all that would have justified his actions (inmo), would have been if Childs said he had a gun, or presented a gun, and I saw nothing in the stories to even indicate that he was even armed with anything beyond his retired cop badge. The reality here is that Webb was actually the guy "impersonating an officer" NOT CHILDS, because he somehow felt he was justified to detain someone over their poor choice in parking, then to draw a firearm to defend his position!

 

[Terminator03]

Sorry, DP!

 

[Terminator03]

the only thing that's accurately reported is Childs' version of events. I don't see any interviews from witnesses, the business or even the police accident report. If Webb is only talking to his lawyer, he may be far more intelligent than anyone here who is making this story up then passing judgement on the characters in their own fiction.

Boris, while I would 100% agree with you in most situations, in this one, I don't think it really matters much what Childs did, or said, swore, etc., because he wasn't the one that pulled a firearm over a parking space. That single, stupid move makes all the difference in how things will play out for Webb, inmo. Even if there were no firearms in play at all, and Webb got in a fistfight with Childs over the parking space, he (Webb) would still be 100% at fault here, even if the cop ended up kicking his ass!

 

[namedpipes]

WTF the reaction was "a bit much", pulling a gun because somebody parked illegally? Your are kidding right? Who cares if he parked illegally? Do you go around confronting everyone who parks illegally? If you do I feel very sorry for you. Should the officer be held to the same standard as civilians - of course. I would guess that most people here have parked illegally at some point in their lives, and certainly shouldn't have their lives threatened for it.

I illegally parked yesterday. Wrong of me, perhaps. Could have gotten a ticket, but being shot (or potentially shot) is just a teensie weensie bit out of line, This one is squarely on the nutter, not the officer.

An impartial interview with the Nashua paper...
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news...shua-police-officer-recounts-incident-in.html

This is the only article I read on the subject, if there is more material, cool, but if this is anywhere near accurate, c'mon!



eta - having read a few more posts now, I'm prepared to stipulate that both parties are either stupid or nuts, but still, drawing on an illegal parker?

 

[TomH]

I fully urge you to break the law on any Massachusetts state college/university campus to fully expierience how limited the power of these "rent-a-cops" really is.

You misunderstand. Since this was in NH, there was no jurisdiction was my point. You can argue all day he has power on campus, but this wasn't campus. And he also has a badge for a department he no longer belongs to?

As for the different state thing... so if a lowell fireman drives over the boarder into NH, is he not a fireman anymore?

Police out of state have no powers in another state. No idea about firemen, but there would probably be liability issues at least. If his powers are limited to campus areas, then that is where he should be representing himself as an officer, not in any other situations. And he especially shouldn't be claiming to be nashua police or possessing/showing a badge that shows that.

And what was the badge going to do for him anyway?

 

[Half Cocked]

And if you were paying attention, you would have noticed his Nashua badge--the same one he apparently flashed at the guy pointing the gun--says "RETIRED" right on it. Seems to me he represented exactly what he was.

It's also worth noting that, at least in MA, just because I leave my jurisdiction doesn't mean that I'm not a police officer, it just means I have reduced police powers. I say reduced because even as a MA municipal officer, I can still make extrajuridictional warrant arrests and my standard of proof for citizen arrests is lower than private citizens. These two provisions apply anywhere in the Commonwealth at any time, on duty or off.

I fully urge you to break the law on any Massachusetts state college/university campus to fully expierience how limited the power of these "rent-a-cops" really is.

All correct..... And.......Unless I missed something...... The only thing he did was identify himself as a Police Officer..... That is not the same as taking police action.....you need no jurisdictional authority to,tell someone that you are an officer.

What police action was he taking in the article?

Soooooo....... I would be wrong to try to help some child who is choking by telling the child's mom that I am a police officer (to differentiate that I am not a perv) because I am simply in another jurisdiction?

 

[TomH]

It seems to me having a "retired" police badge is about as authoritative as a "CCW badge". I should get one just so I can flash it if someone pulls a weapon on me.

 

[Half Cocked]

This thread is full of epic retard......

This thread is a perfect example of how anti-cop many of you are!

The man took no police action as far as I can see... It was someone who was parked illegally who happens to be an LEO and had a gun pulled on him. Replace him with yourself (as we have all parked illegally at some point) and tell me how he is wrong?