My wife is at her LTC class right now!

Mikey

Mikey

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Well I am home alone looking up info on my new Glock b/c my wife is at our gun club right now taking her LTC class. We had a bunch of different place to take the class but this is an 8 hour class that should teach her more that I ever could. One local gun shop offers the class as a 1 hour only class, how the hell can somebody new to shooting get anything out of that? Wether it was required by law or not a good class about laws and shooting is a must for newbies.

So let hope she is having fun!
 
It is good for those who don't need to sit through eight hours of information that they already know.---ICZEOZN
Click to expand...

I wonder how many of the currently licensed gun owners could pass the NRA written exam today? Given the gun handling I see, at the ranges I shoot at, I would bet not many.


Respectfully,

jkelly
 
I agree that a 1 hour class is good for those who know what they are doing but from what I have seen I have to agree with jkelly that most people could use an education on laws and firearms. This includes many dealers.

The 1 hour class is at the Ware Gun Shop and cost $50. They don't advertise it as a "1 hour class" but when I asked how long it was (b/c it was on a monday at 6:00pm) I was told "about an hour".

I went to S&W for my class about 4 years ago, ya it cost $100 but it was well worth it IMHO.
 
MagnumMike said:
The 1 hour class is at the Ware Gun Shop and cost $50. They don't advertise it as a "1 hour class" but when I asked how long it was (b/c it was on a monday at 6:00pm) I was told "about an hour".
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IF true - and I'm not challenging the source - tat's appalling. As noted, one could spend an hour just on the laws and how NOT to botch the application.

Ted's course at Northeast takes, IIRC, two full weekends and the students will have handled all 4 major types of handguns; single and double-action revolvers and single and double-action semis. Thompson Contenders shouldn't be a much of a problem after those.

New shooters who are graduates of a one-hour "class" are ill-equipped to pass any competency tests and are probably under a false sense of security. Then again, a hunter safety course is a less-than-satisfactory substitute for a handgun course in the opinion of many, yet it meets the statutory criteria.[rolleyes]
 
It's also an insult to the course and the instructors like myself who take the time to prepare, and make sure you walk out the door with a greater knowledge...I don't see how a 1-hour course can do much more than let you pay the bill and receive your certificates [thinking]
 
Yes there are undoubtably a few diploma mills out there. OTOH, I ran a HFS class a couple of years ago for a two people who needed it in order to get their LTCs under out wise laws. One was a SpecOps bird colonel just retired on his return from Afghanistan; the other was a Ranger captain back from Iraq. I spent just under an hour going over the Mass laws for them. Now exactly how long should they have been required to put up with me teaching them how to use firearms safely? Not wanting to upset the powers that be at the NRA's Education and Training division, let's just say that it was a somewhat shorter than usual class.

Ken
 
I agree that there may be certain circumstances (Like Kens example above)where an hour might be appropriate. However I would never let a first time gun handler out of one of my classes with a certificate after 1 hour....[thinking]
 
KMaurer said:
Yes there are undoubtably a few diploma mills out there. OTOH, I ran a HFS class a couple of years ago for a two people who needed it in order to get their LTCs under out wise laws. One was a SpecOps bird colonel just retired on his return from Afghanistan; the other was a Ranger captain back from Iraq. I spent just under an hour going over the Mass laws for them. Now exactly how long should they have been required to put up with me teaching them how to use firearms safely? Not wanting to upset the powers that be at the NRA's Education and Training division, let's just say that it was a somewhat shorter than usual class.
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I think we can agree that the purpose of the mandatory safety course is to instill the fundamentals of safe firearms handling to those who have no prior knowledge of the subject.

We can also agree that there are those who already have such skills, but must comply with the legal requirements in order to be licensed.

The first group is a tabula rasa and must be provided both the practical and legal basics, for their onw safety as well as ours.

The second - and much smaller - group is fully qualified in the practical skills, but must be apprised of the subtle, special charm of the Massachusetts nanny state, for THEIR protection from same.

Assuming we concur on all the foregoing, which group do you think the gun store in question is "training?"

If you think Group 1 is its market, do you truly believe a 1-hour course is sufficient?

And, if so, please tell us why.
 
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MagnumMike said:
The 1 hour class is at the Ware Gun Shop and cost $50. They don't advertise it as a "1 hour class" but when I asked how long it was (b/c it was on a monday at 6:00pm) I was told "about an hour".

I went to S&W for my class about 4 years ago, ya it cost $100 but it was well worth it IMHO.
Click to expand...

Not surprising coming from the Ware GS.[rolleyes]

I too took the "Mass Carry" class at S&W. Took about two days(was like 6pm-10pm) to cover everything. Was a great class and at least one of the days went over laws.
 
I'm almost afraid to say this.[thinking] But I took the 1 hour course. It was more like an hour and a half. I had spent a bit of time out shooting with family in NH. My wifes uncle was a range instructor. I learned alot from them and safety was strongly emphasized. While sitting there in the class I thought about those around me. Many had no gun experience at all. Many had no intention of applying for a class A although that's what the instructor suggested. They encouraged going for the highest incase they get one of the lower class licenses. I brought up the fact that it is at the Chiefs discretion on what you get and why you get it. Many thought that once they took this class they were all set. They went over the main differences between revolvers and semiauto pistols. I brought up the AGs approved firearms roster and the instructor went into some detail about that. They basically limited the info on the various styles and designs of guns because as they explained they all have different safety/user features. They went over some of the safer aspects of the MA laws. The ones as they explained that did not change often. One lady asked for a copy of the laws and they said for fear of liability they would not provide printed copies. They refered her to mass.gov for information. They said it was an almost everyday job to keep up with all the regulations they face as a dealer.
After the class they took us downstairs two at a time to shoot in their range. We went in one at a time to shoot a .357 magnum revolver with .38 special and a Glock in .40. The guy that went in ahead of me was told a few times to keep the gun pointed downrange and to use a firmer grip. I think this was a bit much for those that had no intentions of a Class A/B and were only interested in hunting with long guns. After that we were all set to leave.
All in all it was ok. In retrospect I would have taken a longer class.
I've learned alot here and from other shooters I meet. I research and filter just about everything I hear with the truth.
 
My wife had some benefit from my own teachings and already knew how to shoot but she said the other four guys in class (one from the army) had no clue what they were doing. The instructor even said she was "more of a man" then the others b/c she was not scared to shoot the variety of guns that the instructor had (she loved the S&W 1911). I don't mean to bash these guys I know they were all newbies but I think that they could use more then the 8 hours they got, never mind if they went for the 1 hour class.

Regardless of what our nanny state forces us to do people need to take it upon themselves to get better and safer. But I guess as long as the class instills the basics then these guys can learn the rest with practice.
 
I belive they are probably going after group 1 and There is absolutely now way that a 1 hour class can be sufficient for a first timer. I spend longer than that at the range with my students. We go over proper handling, stances, jams, cleaning, and more. I even tell them that once they get their license if they do not feel comfortable that they can call me and we can go to the range again. Honestly, It doesn't matter to me if they get one shot in 200 on the paper, that is something that will get better with practice. However I am extremely concerned that they can properly and responsibly handle the firearm safely.

First of all Massachusetts accepts the NRA training because of its curriculum. Now while I agree it can be taught in a shorter time frame than what the NRA recommends. There is no way you could condense it and the Mass law into an hour for a first timer. Secondly, I as the instructor am signing my name on that persons certificate saying that I believe that they are safe and capable of not injuring themselves or someone else by accident.

Now what do you think would happen if one of those "1 Hour people" shot themselves or someone else by accident and their lawyer finds out they had a one hour class instead of the 8 hour class? Now I do carry insurance but I still would not enjoy being sued.
 
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I would like to think that Ware GS is trying to go after the "group 1" people, but in reality I don't think they really care and are just collect the money. They make no distiction from what I know when you join as to your experience. But that is just MHO.
 
Greg said:
I think a DD214 should be a waiver for any of these classes.
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That's a sweet sentiment, but a DD214 doesn't mean that the holder of the same has _any_ knowledge of Massachusetts' firearms laws.

It would be very sad if a former military member got in deep trouble with his guns or gun storage simply because he was not required to take the training conducted by a MA State Police Basic Firearms Safety Instructor, and wasn't even aware of the laws that he violated.

Darius Arbabi
 
Cross-X said:
That's a sweet sentiment, but a DD214 doesn't mean that the holder of the same has _any_ knowledge of Massachusetts' firearms laws.
Click to expand...

+1 Not to mention I've seen holders of DD-214's that don't know how to load a magizine. [thinking]
 
At Riverside, the most popular class is an expanded NRA "Home Firearm Safety" that starts at 8am and runs until 3pm if we are lucky. We do not break for lunch, but instead encourage students to bring a lunch or snack.

The focus is safety, learning how the firearms operate and how to make and assure they are in a safe condition. We cover ammunition to hopefully avoid the potential hazards there, but don't bother dealing with more complex issues. It is required for each student to make firearms safe and demonstrate safe handling. No written exam. There is a lengthy discussion on the legal issues from storage, transport, and licensing requirements as well as a brief introduction to the limits of Deadly Force.

The entire class is geared to satisfying the MGL Safety Class requirements for licensing, but extremely strong emphasis is given to remind students that nothing presented provides any practical instruction and while they can now be safe with a gun shaped hunk of metal, they are not even qualified in so much as loading it, let alone firing. (in fact, we never present how to load, only how to unload)

I've had many arguments that such classes do not offer enough to make anyone safe with a gun. I have to disagree. If all they are going to do is handle the gun and not intend to shoot, it does the job. I agree that it does NOTHING to enable anyone to become a better shooter, but that simply isn't the purpose of the class. Lets face it, if someone is going to go out and take the cheapest class they can that will issue them a certificate, some and in facr, many will do so. I'd rather that class be somewhat useful in that they will be exposed to safe handling and the legal issues involved. If that is as far as the student wishes to go, that is THEIR choice.

Lets not forget, I encourage training. Most of us believe in good training. But most of us also believe in not requiring mandatory training by the government.

I'd rather offer the minimal required and make it a useful and informative class at a low cost so that people can at least get their license and then decide what KIND of class they want to attend to learn what THEY want to learn.

Sure, we use the class to help advertise the club and our other classes. We encourage the students to partake in those classes. We also promote the classes offered by GOAL, AWARE, LFI, SigArms, Smith and Wesson, etc. Frankly I don't care where people go after they leave the class, just that if they intend to get into shooting that they seek out the proper instruction for the type of shooting they wish to do.

And hopefully, we've presented a class that sets the standard for the type of instruction that they expect so that they KNOW when they take that next class if what they are being taught is of the same quality or better.

We've had people come to our classes from other 'schools' and tell us horror stories of some of the 'instruction' they have had. All I can say is that given the purpose of the class, we strive to provide the best instruction we can. It is really up to the student to decide what level of instruction they want.

I'd love it if everyone signed up for the 6 week extended NRA "Basic Pistol" course that uses 3 hours every Monday night to slowly build up knowledge and skills over six weeks to train a novice into a well rounded and skilled beginner pistol shooter. But frankly few have the time, commitment, and desire to either pay for such a course, or put in the effort. But given the choice of running an informational Saturday course or ignoring those that are looking for the easier way out, I'll take the former if for nothing more than I know that they learned SOMETHING that might keep them safe.
 
my LTC class experience

I wanted to share my LTC class experience. The class was the worst firearms related experience I’ve ever had (never had a gun pointed at me – I suppose that would be worst, but not by much.

I took my LTC class as a rank beginner. I’d handled a firearm less than a half dozen times in my life (once as a kid when my uncle took me out shooting, another 3-4 times renting at the Boston Gun Range).

My friend and I signed up for the class because it was listed on the NRA website, it was nearby, and the schedule was convenient to ours. I believe the class was advertised to be 4 hours, but ended up being less than that. We were told the class was all we needed to complete the MA LTC requirements.

We were given directions to the “gun school,” which turned out to be in the instructor’s basement. The entire house was disgusting – we had to walk along a small path through the kitchen and hallway because both were piled high with paperwork, old mail, trash bags, boxes, and every manner of what could only be described as “junk” EVERYWHERE. I imagine he had a kitchen table, chairs and counter top, but none were visible under the mounds of stuff. Down a flight of stairs that were hastily repaired by an amateur carpenter was the “classroom” (i.e. basement), which was in even worst condition than the upper floor. The junk downstairs equaled that upstairs, except there was a think layer of grime over everything.

My friend thought he had a home made shooting range in the other part of the basement, which would explain the grime.

It took the instructor 5 minutes to clear off a space on the classroom table for us to sit down. Even after he cleared us a spot, the junk was piled so high at the center of the table that we had to lift ourselves up to see the instructor over the junk.

The class consisted of the following: the instructor read from an NRA binder containing the lesson plan. At the beginning of each chapter he placed a slide on a grimy slide projector with the title of the chapter (there were no other slides or information on the slides). He rarely looked up as he read, he got frustrated if we asked questions, and he yelled at me for taking notes (I was writing down the NRA safety rules).

We took a break after 2 hours – I’m not even going to attempt to describe what the bathroom looked like.

The rest of the class lasted another 90 minutes or so. The class focused entirely on NRA gun safety. There was no discussion of different types of guns, how they worked, etc. In fact, with the exception of the gun hanging on pegs in the back of the basement, I never saw a single gun the entire time, let alone got to handle or shoot one. There was absolutely no discussion of MA gun laws, and I imagine the instructor wasn’t familiar with them, because he didn’t answer any of our questions regarding them.

All in all, we were both happy to get out of there without needing a tetanus shot, but for the most part we didn’t learn a damn thing (and got quite a bit of misinformation in the process). We got our LTCs without a problem, but we’ve been playing catch-up ever since, trying to learn all the stuff that (from other posts and class descriptions) should/is taught in other classes.
 
No, it was the Blue Stag School in Chelmsford. I shudder to think my description could apply to more than one place.
 
I doubt anything could compare with livinwatertown's

But mine was like it except for the surroundings. It was done at an indoor range
and consisted of the guy reading the NRA manual word for word. Lunch break and the shooting of a few pistols.

For me it was no big deal because I've been shooting all my life, but some of the folks there had never touched a gun before.
 

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