Milton firefighter shot in Quincy in alleged road rage attack

M1911 said:
It appears that this was mutual combat, and that may preclude his ability to claim self defense. In a one-versus-one fight, if your attacker is unarmed and there is no dramatic disparity of force (e.g., 110' weakling versus Andre Arlovski), it may be very to convince judge or jury that deadly force was justified.
l.
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(To continue to play devil's advocate), there are several published reports that the shooter in this case is a "brain aneurysm survivor" Obviously there are a number of way to treat cerebral aneurysms, but certainly the possibly exists that any blow to the head may have caused severe damage to the shooter. I.e. if the firefighter was yelling "I'm going to smash you head in," the shooter may have felt that deadly force was called for.....
 
CLMN said:
In regard to your comments I placed in bold: Whether or not rich kid was hit and essentially forced to stop, I'll bet you 100% that his attorneys will present it in court as fact that he was hit/bumped and was made/forced to stop.

Even if Cokie and his girlfriend deny it, it ends up rich kid's word against Cokie's & GF's words.

Together with everything else involved here (family money/influence, best attorneys money can buy, rich kid's delicate medical condition, civil case out-of-court settlement, Cokie's violent history, Cokie's white mustache, etc.), rich kid will never spend one additional day in jail.

Anybody here want to bet otherwise?

CLMN
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I'll see your class-envy speculation and raise you one he-actually-be-innocent scenario:

  1. Shooter actually does get bumped by cokie and stops to exchange papers fearing that to drive off would be seen as leaving the scene of an accident.
  2. Legally carrying, he gets out of his car, probably closing the door.
  3. Cokie jumps out and rushes him screaming "I'm going kill you!"
  4. Shooter is now afraid for his life and unable to retreat into his car because cokie would be on him before he could get away, get to his car, or the door open.
  5. Shooter shoots cokie to keep from having the snot beat out of him by an apparently crazed younger, fitter fellow.
IMNSHO this would easily be justifiable self-defense.

The fact that the shooter panics and flees, spending the next 2 days cowering in his apartment before calling his lawyer, does not change what happened before. Granted, fleeing may be chargeable in it's own right, creates a perception of fault, and colors interpretations of his previous actions, but it does not actually change the preceding facts. I for one would likely vote to acquit under this scenario.
 
kevin9 said:
I'll see your class-envy speculation and raise you one he-actually-be-innocent scenario...
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No "class envy" here at all. Quite to the contrary, I am pleased that the shooter turned out to be wealthy and well-connected because I believe he would otherwise be railroaded by an out-of-control MA court system that would only see a brave, badge-carrying, firefighting "hero" getting gunned down by a mere civilian. The money and influence thing sort of evens the playing field.

Fact is that a member of my family once ended up in similar circumstances... i.e., up against a badge in court... and it wasn't pretty. There is no winning in a system that is 99.9% biased in favor of anyone who wears a badge regardless of truth or evidence.

CLMN
 
CLMN said:
No "class envy" here at all. Quite to the contrary, I am pleased that the shooter turned out to be wealthy and well-connected because I believe he would otherwise be railroaded by an out-of-control MA court system that would only see a brave, badge-carrying, firefighting "hero" getting gunned down by a mere civilian. The money and influence thing sort of evens the playing field.

Fact is that a member of my family once ended up in similar circumstances... i.e., up against a badge in court... and it wasn't pretty. There is no winning in a system that is 99.9% biased in favor of anyone who wears a badge regardless of truth or evidence.

CLMN
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Fair enough.
 
Every time someone in this thread calls the firefighter "Cokie", I keep thinking of Cokie Roberts. It's a hilarious mental image. [laugh]
 
pdm said:
Every time someone in this thread calls the firefighter "Cokie", I keep thinking of Cokie Roberts. It's a hilarious mental image. [laugh]
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Sorry man, I have no control over the things that come out of my brain..."Cokie the Firefighter" just seemed to flow.....My apologies to the board, the firefighting community and cokeheads everywhere...[smile]
 
MassMark said:
Sorry man, I have no control over the things that come out of my brain..."Cokie the Firefighter" just seemed to flow.....My apologies to the board, the firefighting community and cokeheads everywhere...[smile]
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C'mon, it's great. I get the mental image of a coked-out Cokie Roberts road-ragin' on a guy in a Porsche. What could be better? [laugh]
 
Update:

http://www.patriotledger.com/news/c...an-suspected-of-shooting-a-Milton-firefighter

Robert O’Connell, 40, a member of a prominent and wealthy Quincy family, is free on $500,000 bail, charged with shooting Joseph Fasano, 30, Dec. 12 in Quincy in what police are calling a road-rage incident.

O’Connell wears an electronic monitor and has been forbidden from leaving his Marina Bay home.
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http://www.wickedlocal.com/milton/n...-sick-leave-subject-of-internal-investigation

QUINCY — The Milton firefighter who was shot in the abdomen last month after an apparent traffic confrontation in Quincy is out on sick leave while he recuperates.

Meanwhile, Milton’s fire chief and town administrator are looking into possible disciplining of Joseph Fasano, 30, for incidents from his past that came to light after the shooting.

Milton Fire Chief John Grant said the internal investigation is focused on run-ins Fasano had with the law before the Dec. 12 shooting but after he was hired as a firefighter in September 2005.

Those include a 2007 arrest in Weymouth on domestic-assault charges and an arrest in South Carolina on a charge of disturbing the peace.
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SecondAmdFirst said:
More and more is coming to light about this firefighter....not sure the shooter was in the wrong, but I will wait for more information.
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I know that in the Harold Fish case the past run ins with the law and violent behavior of the guy he shot was used to try to build up Fish's case. Based on the info I've seen, I think that both Fish and the case in the OP were at a minimum questionable shoots, but the outcome of this case should be interesting to see.
 
The shooter has to be able to prove he had no other option but to use deadly force. If the shooter was playing tit for tat in a road rage incident he is done. If it can be proved the shooter could have driven off he’s done. If it’s true that the shooter actually cut the victim off and then blocked him in and got out of his car to confront him- he is a combatant at this point not a victim. The shooter must be able to prove he was in fear of his life (Fear of eminent bodily harm & that there was nothing else he could do to prevent such harm). If the shooter was a willing participant in the whole stupid series of events, then he hasn’t met the elements. How scared could he have been if he actually confronted the guy? Both of these guys were idiots and had cooler smarter heads prevailed we would not be having this discussion at all. Ymmv
 
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Recent changes in AZ law (passed in response to the Fish case) and MA case law allow previous indicators of violent behavior by the person injured or killed in a situation in which self defense is being argued to be introduced at trial. Prior to these changes, such information was inadmissible unless it could be shown that the defendant knew about the other party's history - the theory being that absent such knowledge, the information could not have been part of the defendant's mindset when force was deployed.

The history of the firefighter, combined with the defendant's apparent access to substantial resources, gives the defendant a fighting chance. At the least, the background of the shootee should make a somewhat better deal available to the defendant if he decides to plead out.
 
stinx said:
Both of these guys were idiots and had cooler smarter heads prevailed we would not be having this discussion at all. Ymmv
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I agree 100%. But as Rob Boudrie said, the shooter is wealthy enough to buy a good lawyer and fight this out in court, and it could potentially result in some interesting new case law. In my opinion some of the more interesting Massachusetts cases were based people doing stupid things, like Commonwealth v. Couture or Commonwealth v. Alvarado; however, a case like Commonwealth v. Lindsey is a case where even though the law was broken, it was with good intent and for all of the right reasons. The complexities of things like this are what's holding my attention in the Milton firefighter case, and while on the surface it all sounds bad, I'm very interested to see what the courts have to say. When I get more info I'll make the "good guy getting hosed/bad guy playing stupid games for stupid prizes" decision. [wink]

Rob Boudrie said:
Recent changes in AZ law (passed in response to the Fish case) and MA case law allow previous indicators of violent behavior by the person injured or killed in a situation in which self defense is being argued to be introduced at trial. Prior to these changes, such information was inadmissible unless it could be shown that the defendant knew about the other party's history - the theory being that absent such knowledge, the information could not have been part of the defendant's mindset when force was deployed.
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Which MA case law is this, specifically? I never knew that before.
 
Which MA case law is this, specifically? I never knew that before.
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Commonwealth v. Adjutant SJC-09299 (2005), cited in the high profile reversal of the original conviction against Alexander Pring-Wilson.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Commonwealth v. Adjutant SJC-09299 (2005), cited in the high profile reversal of the original conviction against Alexander Pring-Wilson.
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See? Proves my point about interesting not always corresponding with correct behavior. [wink]

Commonwealth v. Adjutant

Background. The evidence at trial was as follows. Adjutant worked as an escort for Newbury Cosmopolitan International Escort Service...
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The shooter has been indicted:

Son of Quincy developer indicted in shooting of off-duty firefighter

By Johanna Seltz, Globe Correspondent

The son of a prominent Quincy developer has been indicted for allegedly shooting an off-duty Milton firefighter last December.

Robert O’Connell, 40, faces 20 years in state prison if convicted of the charge of armed assault with intent to murder and another 15 years if found guilty of the charge of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon causing serious bodily injury, according to David Traub, spokesman for the Norfolk district attorney's office.

O’Connell was indicted by a Norfolk County grand jury Monday, Traub said.
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Full text here: http://www.boston.com/yourtown/news/milton/2010/05/odonnell_indicted_in_milton_fi.html
 
Traub said the prosecutor's office unsuccessfully tried to have O’Connell held without bail under the dangerous person statute after he pleaded not guilty at his Quincy District Court arraignment. O’Connell has been free on $500,000 cash bail and is being monitored by a GPS device, Traub said.
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This has got to stop. They are using this as a weapon to force guilty pleas by preventing people from working while they await trial. Which in effect ensures that the person will lose their job/clients and any ability to mount an effective legal defense as we saw with the MBS guy.
 
The firefighter was fired last month apparently...
Fasano, who joined the Milton Fire Department in September 2005, was fired earlier this month for insubordination and unbecoming conduct. He has appealed his dismissal to the Civil Service Commission.

Fire Chief John J. Grant fired Fasano following an investigation by an outside hearings officer into the shooting and information that surfaced about a previous domestic violence case involving Fasano.

The report from the hearings officer concluded that Fasano had been insubordinate by refusing to answer some of the questions posed by the internal investigation, according to Town Administrator Kevin Mearn.

The report also found “conduct unbecoming” for a firefighter. That involved Fasano’s arrest in 2007 in Weymouth for a domestic violence charge against a former girlfriend, Mearn said. He said Grant did not know about Fasano’s arrest, and subsequent probation, until it came out in news reports after last year’s shooting.
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DCR said:
I went to highschool with Joe. Good guy but not surprised he got involved in a road rage incident. Tough kid, former marine if I remember correctly. Hope he pulls through ok.
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I'm sure he got out to "teach the other guy a lesson".

PSGWSP
 
I don't want to go into to many specifics, but I know the shooters family and have met the shooter. It was definately not drug related. The shooter is a clean cut small stature meek man. From what I was told he was definately in fear of his life, due to a previous injury and a potential punch could do. This makes me rethink my decision to carry.
 
Maxspeed said:
I don't want to go into to many specifics, but I know the shooters family and have met the shooter. It was definately not drug related. The shooter is a clean cut small stature meek man. From what I was told he was definately in fear of his life, due to a previous injury and a potential punch could do. This makes me rethink my decision to carry.
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If this is the case, the shooter should not have run and hid from the cops after the fact.
 

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