Massachusetts LTC in Vehicle

[Mtn_Guy]

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All can play…

 

[Broc]

I think you got this wrong. No one is in control of a locked away firearm. If that were they case anyone in a house would be in control of all the firearms in a safe.

This is correct.

 

[Broc]

In MA, what do you do if you're carrying and you need to mail something at the post office? Don't you have to strip it down to the pins, lock it in a couple different MA AG approved lock cases, put it in the trunk, unload the magazines and lock the bullets and magazines in two other separate lock boxes all in the trunk? Then you can load it all up and put it in your holster and on your belt so it's back under your 'direct control' and go on about your day?

Yes, and all that must be done at least 501 feet from the post office.

You can tell when you sre over 500 feet from one because you will see a sign "Post Office Federal Zone Starts here".

I have heard of at least 4 cases of people going to jail for not following proper procedure.

 

[Broc]

Wrong, the person in the vehicle becomes the "person in control of the weapon"... If that person does not have a license they are in trouble if a LEO checks the vehicle...

You have been a NES member since 2006. You should have read enough threads about this topic to know you are completely wrong.

 

[namedpipes]

Greetings all!
Hope you all had a good holiday and all the best in the new year.

I've read through the posts out here and other web sites before bending your ear but, I'm still fuzzy.

I know in the lovely state of Mass the laws can be wonky but I'm sure my gut is correct on this one. I've read the laws on LTC in a vehicle. Two types of permits and both require "under supervision" or in a locked box -both make sense. I also see that, where the laws are sometimes open to interpretation, it can come down to a bench ruling. So, depending on the situation and judge, you may get a slap or a felony.

Someone at Christmas told me it was fine to carry a loaded pistol in a holder on the steering column. That doesn't sound right to me even if he is in the vehicle with it "under his direct supervision" -forget about when he's not in the vehicle.

I was brought up with gun safety from my father constantly asking "Is that empty?", "Do you know where that bullet is going?" and "Are you sure?" If I ever do pick something up, I check the chamber at least 3-5 times and STILL point it at the floor. So this idea of carrying a loaded weapon, open, in a vehicle just doesn't seem right.

Would love to hear some thoughts from Mass veterans.

You don't drive a tow truck, by any chance?

@Cuthbert Allgood

 

[DarthRevan]

Hey, OP, go green.

Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.

I know of one case of successfully not going to jail of similar circumstances in MA, which just goes to show it all depends on the lawyer.

 

[bigben111435]

Use your best judgement, and explain your logic to yourself ahead of time.
If it sounds shaky in your head, chances are a cop isn't gonna like it out loud.

Or use a dummy cord.

 

[Broc]

Use your best judgement, and explain your logic to yourself ahead of time.
If it sounds shaky in your head, chances are a cop isn't gonna like it out loud.

Or use a dummy cord.

The only thing a cop should ever hear outloud is your name.

If you need to explain anything else, you are better off shutting up.

That being said, the OP is looking for the most complicated solution to a non-issue. Basically, making his life harder for no reason. Something very common on this forum.

 

[AHM]

 

[cathouse01]

MA Standard Jury Instructions for Improper Storage. (See download )

IMPROPER STORAGE OF A FIREARM
G.L. c. 140, § 131L
Instruction 7.630 Revised November 2021

.
.
.
To prove the second element, the Commonwealth must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the (rifle) (firearm) (shotgun) was knowingly kept or stored by the defendant. A weapon is not kept or stored when it is carried by the defendant or when it is under his (her) immediate control.

One carries a (firearm) (rifle) (shotgun) when one has actual physical possession of it. If there is not actual physical possession of the (firearm) (rifle) (shotgun), it is not being carried.

One has control of a (firearm) (rifle) (shotgun) when one is sufficiently near it to immediately prevent its unauthorized use. If one is not close enough to the (firearm) (rifle) (shotgun) to immediately prevent its unauthorized use, one is not in control of it. You may consider evidence, if any, about the location of the (firearm) (rifle) (shotgun), the location of the defendant, and any other relevant evidence to determine whether the defendant had control of the (firearm) (rifle) (shotgun).

Under these instructions, I would think a reasonable jury would find that a firearm in a steering wheel holster was “under control” as long as you were sitting in the driver's seat. However, this means that you’ve gone to trial and are now at the mercy of the jury’s interpretation of “close enough”.

I would still go with “on your person or in a safe”.

 

[bigben111435]

The only thing a cop should ever hear outloud is your name.

If you need to explain anything else, you are better off shutting up.

That being said, the OP is looking for the most complicated solution to a non-issue. Basically, making his life harder for no reason. Something very common on this forum.

Ya it is a non issue.
And you are pretty much right, once the cop goes "why do you have your firearm there?" you have made a mistake, so why bother explaining your logic? It may come off as a challenge, and lead to more scrutiny, and more chances to say or do something stupid.

 

[AHM]

... once the cop goes "why do you have your firearm there?" you have made a mistake, so why bother explaining your logic? It may come off as a challenge, and lead to more scrutiny, and more chances to say or do something stupid.

Which reminds me BTW.
Side note for YoutUber viewers:

The snotty brain trust at Audit the Audit troll pest analysis channel are
FR World-Class Super Cucks about immediately screaming
"I have a gun and I know how to use it" at even the most routine traffic stops
in no Duty to Inform jurisdictions. I've seen two separate examples,
and the millennium is young.

So before taking their legal advice -
consider the source.

 

[DavidC77]

Even if locked in the safe and cable locked to the chasse of the car?

Yup, as soon as you leave the vehicle and leave the gun it then becomes under control of who is left in the vehicle...

I found this out because my wife did not have a LTC, so she would have gotten in trouble if I left my gun...

She went and got her LTC, and she was then covered...

EDIT: Sorry I answered this at the time incorrectly, locked in a safe is different, locked in a safe the others in the vehicle are OK...
If you exit the vehicle and just leave your gun with another person that doesn't have a LTC then that's when they can get in trouble...

 

[DavidC77]

I think you got this wrong. No one is in control of a locked away firearm. If that were they case anyone in a house would be in control of all the firearms in a safe.

MA vehicle laws are different than home laws...

Plus, in my original statement I never said anything about a "Locked Away Gun"...

 

[DavidC77]

Bruh. I leave my guns locked up with other non-LTC holders all the time, including my children. It’s called a safe for a reason.

Then you are putting them in danger of being arrested for having a firearm without a license...

Trust me, I researched this when my wife didn't have an LTC...

Plus, in my original statement I never said anything about a "Locked Away Gun"...

 

[DavidC77]

Thanks everyone for your two cents and confirming what I already thought.

Yeah I don't get the whole LTC thing but that's just me. Cheers!

Welcome to MA and their "We are going to write laws in a way that we can interpret them any way we want to and then screw the little peons if we wish to!"

 

[DavidC77]

So if inleave my house with a gun properly locked in a safe, and a person is lawfully in the house unlicensed, and the cops happen to come by- unlicensed possession of firearms while following the storage laws. Got it

MA vehicle laws are different then home laws...

 

[pastera]

Then you are putting them in danger of being arrested for having a firearm without a license...

Trust me, I researched this when my wife didn't have an LTC...

Please cite your research
Unless they hand over the key or combo to the cop nobody is getting hit with possession of a secured firearm.

 

[DavidC77]

In MA, what do you do if you're carrying and you need to mail something at the post office? Don't you have to strip it down to the pins, lock it in a couple different MA AG approved lock cases, put it in the trunk, unload the magazines and lock the bullets and magazines in two other separate lock boxes all in the trunk? Then you can load it all up and put it in your holster and on your belt so it's back under your 'direct control' and go on about your day?

I've read the Post Office Rules (Poster 7) and by that you are not even supposed to have a gun on Post Office Property...

(I've been watching a lot of 1st Amendment Audits on YouTube)

​ Weapons and Explosives​ Notwithstanding any other law, rule, or regulation, no person while on Postal Service property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on Postal Service property, except for official purposes. ​

Copyright© 2022 USPS. All Rights Reserved.
Poster 7, Rules and Regulations Governing Conduct on Postal Service Property - Contents

Rules and Regulations Governing Conduct on Postal Service Property

 

[DavidC77]

Not sure if this post is serious but....

Well the post office thing is federal and the parking lot is fine you just can't carry inside ( Federal judge: Post Office violated man’s rights by banning gun from parking lot )

You drop the magazine, remove the chambered round, put it all in a locked case, trunk or other secure container
No need to separate the firearm/ammo/magazine and "approved lock case" is not a thing
You can drive around all day like that... Even leave your vehicle.

Wrong!!!

I've read the Post Office Rules (Poster 7) and by that you are not even supposed to have a gun on Post Office Property...

(I've been watching a lot of 1st Amendment Audits on YouTube)

Weapons and Explosives​ Notwithstanding any other law, rule, or regulation, no person while on Postal Service property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on Postal Service property, except for official purposes.

Copyright© 2022 USPS. All Rights Reserved.
Poster 7, Rules and Regulations Governing Conduct on Postal Service Property - Contents

Rules and Regulations Governing Conduct on Postal Service Property

 

[Yazz]

We, future convicts in MA, keep hearing that NH does not require even shoes in the winter. What a state!
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When they get rid of clothes I'm in!

 

[DavidC77]

Please cite your research
Unless they hand over the key or combo to the cop nobody is getting hit with possession of a secured firearm.

Yes, it is secured in a locked case but the person in the vehicle is the one that has "control" of that gun (EDIT: if it is not in a locked safe)... that is in that locked safe... Sorry, that's how I should have answered that, my bad...

Believe me or don't believe me, if you have USCCA (or a good gun lawyer) contact your lawyer and they will tell you I'm correct...

EDIT: everyone is misreading my original post, I never said anything about the gun being in a safe or locked away...

 

[AHM]

@cathouse01 deserves props.

He may have singlehandedly jump started
a new NES era of studying Mass jury instructions.

Please cite your research

This.

I've read the Post Office Rules (Poster 7) and by that you are not even supposed to have a gun on Post Office Property...

(I've been watching a lot of 1st Amendment Audits on YouTube)

Holding out for 2nd Amendment Audits.

 

[DavidC77]

You have been a NES member since 2006. You should have read enough threads about this topic to know you are completely wrong.

Believe me or don't believe me, if you have USCCA (or a good gun lawyer) contact your lawyer and they will tell you I'm correct...

 

[pastera]

Yes, it is secured in a locked case but the person in the vehicle is the one that has "control" of that gun that is in that locked safe...

Believe me or don't believe me, if you have USCCA (or a good gun lawyer) contact your lawyer and they will tell you I'm correct...

A secure container by definition secures contents from access by unauthorized individuals - if you have no access you can't be on control.

USCCA is intimately familiar with Mass vehicle storage law? Yeah I'd say that advice is on the level of gun store clerk.

If one of the very competent firearms attorneys here wants to debunk your misinterpretation that would be great but I'm sure even then your mind won't change.

 

[DavidC77]

A secure container by definition secures contents from access by unauthorized individuals - if you have no access you can't be on control.

USCCA is intimately familiar with Mass vehicle storage law? Yeah I'd say that advice is on the level of gun store clerk.

If one of the very competent firearms attorneys here wants to debunk your misinterpretation that would be great but I'm sure even then your mind won't change.

Believe me or don't believe me, if you have USCCA (or a good gun lawyer) contact your lawyer and they will tell you I'm correct...

 

[G4Y4HK]

Wrong!!!

I've read the Post Office Rules (Poster 7) and by that you are not even supposed to have a gun on Post Office Property...

(I've been watching a lot of 1st Amendment Audits on YouTube)

Weapons and Explosives​ Notwithstanding any other law, rule, or regulation, no person while on Postal Service property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on Postal Service property, except for official purposes.

Copyright© 2022 USPS. All Rights Reserved.
Poster 7, Rules and Regulations Governing Conduct on Postal Service Property - Contents

Rules and Regulations Governing Conduct on Postal Service Property

Yah that's why when you need to mail something at the post office and carry, you park ten blocks away, unload and strip it down to the pins, lock it up, and count your steps before you've crossed 'federal borders'. lol.

 

[pastera]

@DavidC77

Example of a citation:

Mass. General Laws c.140 § 131L

Weapons stored or kept by owner; inoperable by any person other than owner or lawfully authorized user; punishment

www.mass.gov

Notice how this law talks about no liability for access in the case of unforseen trespass (someone broke into your secure container to gain control and possession)

Please provide a similar citation showing your claims.

 

[pastera]

@DavidC77
Here's some relevant case law:

REYES, COMMONWEALTH vs., 464 Mass. 245

masscases.com

Read the case - you will see that once you leave the gun in the car that gun is no longer being carried and is instead covered by storage laws. Storage laws say a secure container that prevents unauthorized access is what is needed.

I can grab that case law but it's a pain on my phone and you won't change your mind nor read any reference citation that could prove you wrong.

 

[namedpipes]

Which reminds me BTW.
Side note for YoutUber viewers:

The snotty brain trust at Audit the Audit troll pest analysis channel are
FR World-Class Super Cucks about immediately screaming
"I have a gun and I know how to use it" at even the most routine traffic stops
in Duty to Inform jurisdictions. I've seen two separate examples,
and the millennium is young.

So before taking their legal advice -
consider the source.

I'll confess I've given this same advice (ending however with recommending they hold the gun out the window pointing in a safe direction). The recipients have usually just asked a supremely omicron question. At least this one... well... it wasn't the best thought out, but it does at least raise the real question of "what does direct control" mean.