Massachusetts family suing Cabela's over ammunition sale in son's death

[pastera]

Always sad when a young person takes his or her own life. I get how an upset family may want to lash out but IMHO this family is misguided.

"Whether or not people want to assume it was intentional or was accidental, the bottom line is it could have been prevented," Bobby Fillios said.

Most likely it was intentional and the family does not want to accept that.

It could have been prevented by following existing, well known and simple handling rules for firearms.

NRA Gun Safety Rules

At the NRA, firearm education and safety is paramount—that’s why we offer a variety of programs and services to promote the safe handling, use and storage of firearms.

gunsafetyrules.nra.org

The parents likely were the root cause in that they likely did not ensure he was properly trained to avoid the danger of mishandling firearms.

 

[pastera]

I disagree but it is a nuance. They ARE firearms, however the sections that require an LTC to possess/carry don’t apply to them, as shown in the exception that Mesatchornug posted above. That exception didn’t say that “primitive firearms aren’t firearms”. Instead it said that certain sections don’t apply to primitive weapons.

I am not speaking to the colloquial definition of a firearm - the entirety of this case hangs on the Mass LEGAL definition so that is the position from which we must review and analyze.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I am not speaking to the colloquial definition of a firearm - the entirety of this case hangs on the Mass LEGAL definition so that is the position from which we must review and analyze.

His point, which I kind of agree with, seems to be "under MA law, sometimes a firearm isn't a firearm; sometimes a non-firearm is a firearm."

For example, at a school, or in an assault case, it transmogrifies in the same way a paintball marker would - to best suit the State. Similar to how, in the "frame game," an actual firearm ironically ceases to be one - to suit our wants and needs.

 

[Road_Clam]

I purchased my Pietta 1858 C&B revolver from the Hudson Cabelas back in 2016 , cash and carry. No checks no nothing ( I was also NH resident purchasing in MA )

 

[M1911]

I am not speaking to the colloquial definition of a firearm - the entirety of this case hangs on the Mass LEGAL definition so that is the position from which we must review and analyze.

Read the law again. This is a nuance.

Here is the definition of firearm in the law:

Firearm'', a stun gun or a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches

Note there is nothing in this definition that says “primitive weapons aren’t firearm”. A primitive firearm (that is, a primitive pistol) is still a firearm.

Now read the exception text again:

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;

(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

The exception text does not say “a replica isn’t a firearm”. It says that the following sections of the law don’t apply to replicas / primitive pistols.

It’s a minor quibble, a distinction without a difference. I agree with you that Cabelas did nothing illegal.

 

[MAGA99]

Just to clear some things up here, it wasn't intentional suicide.

"In a lawsuit filed in Worcester Superior Court April 19, Robert Fillios and Sandra Landon are suing the Cabela's chain on behalf of Justin Fillios. The 20-year-old was trying to free a round stuck in the black powder-fired revolver in February 2020 when it went off and killed him."

Playing with a loaded firearm and having it discharge towards yourself….if you’re an adult, it’s intentional. Supposedly he knew how to tinker. How did he not know how to do so safely?? Epic fail for that adult.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Read the law again. This is a nuance.

Here is the definition of firearm in the law:

Firearm'', a stun gun or a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches

Note there is nothing in this definition that says “primitive weapons aren’t firearm”. A primitive firearm (that is, a primitive pistol) is still a firearm.

Now read the exception text again:

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;

(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

The exception text does not say “a replica isn’t a firearm”. It says that the following sections of the law don’t apply to replicas / primitive pistols.

It’s a minor quibble, a distinction without a difference. I agree with you that Cabelas did nothing illegal.

You do yourself a disservice calling it distinction without difference.

In this case, it's unimportant. In others (e.g., nonresident possession) it's a vital difference.

 

[pastera]

Read the law again. This is a nuance.

Here is the definition of firearm in the law:

Firearm'', a stun gun or a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches
Note there is nothing in this definition that says “primitive weapons aren’t firearm”.

Now read the exception text again:

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;
E
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

The exception text does not say “a replica isn’t a firearm”. It says that the following sections of the law don’t apply to replicas.

It’s a minor quibble, a distinction without a difference. I agree with you that Cabelas did nothing illegal.

A full reading of the SJC case file shows you are correct in that Mass still considers an antique firearm, even if a replica, still a firearm but exempt from the other sections dictating crimes. A complete CF of law and the definition of firearm should include the exemption or the relevant other sections should call out the exceptions

A firearm manufactured before 1900 is a "firearm" within the definition of G.L. c. 140, § 121, which defines a "[f]irearm" as "a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured." However, § 121 also provides that the "provisions of [§§ ] 122 to 129D, inclusive, and [§§ ] 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to ... any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899." Because G.L. c. 140, § 131, governs licenses to carry firearms, and because § 131 does not apply to firearms manufactured before 1900, a person does not need a license to carry a firearm made before 1900. The carrying of such an antique firearm, therefore, is exempted by § 131 from the prohibition in G.L. c. 269, § 10 (a ), against carrying a firearm without a license. See G.L. c. 269, § 10 (a ) ("Whoever, except as provided or exempted by statute, knowingly has [a firearm] in his possession ... or ... under his control in a vehicle" without license to carry firearms issued under G.L. c. 140, § 131, is guilty of crime). As a result, a defendant may not be convicted under § 10 (a ) of carrying a firearm manufactured before 1900 without a license to carry because the defendant is permitted to carry such an antique firearm without a license to carry.

 

[pupchow]

Over three years later, it's because they care. The "family"? Right...

 

[drgrant]

Always sad when a young person takes his or her own life. I get how an upset family may want to lash out but IMHO this family is misguided.

"Whether or not people want to assume it was intentional or was accidental, the bottom line is it could have been prevented," Bobby Fillios said.

Most likely it was intentional and the family does not want to accept that.

I'm sure the ambulance chaser that's representing them has gaslit them into believing otherwise. They are experts at feeding "victims" delusions of grandeur......

 

[M1911]

A full reading of the SJC case file shows you are correct in that Mass still considers an antique firearm, even if a replica, still a firearm but exempt from the other sections dictating crimes. A complete CF of law and the definition of firearm should include the exemption or the relevant other sections should call out the exceptions

MA firearms law is a complete mess. It's just terribly written.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Just to clear some things up here, it wasn't intentional suicide.

"In a lawsuit filed in Worcester Superior Court April 19, Robert Fillios and Sandra Landon are suing the Cabela's chain on behalf of Justin Fillios. The 20-year-old was trying to free a round stuck in the black powder-fired revolver in February 2020 when it went off and killed him."

That's awfully close to "he was cleaning his gun and it went off."

Being completely fair to everyone, we lack sufficient information to make authoritative statements. I'm sure, as the case progresses, information will come out that helps the finders of fact make a more careful determination.

At the same time, despite societal improvements in admitting to depression and suicide, it's still taboo and families still put in significant effort to disguise it from their neighbors. Add to this, if he was correctly trained and adhered to that training, this wouldn't have happened. Even if we assume it was an "Ignorant" discharge, rather than a negligent one, the fault is still not on Cabela's.

 

[Mountain]

I'm sure the ambulance chaser that's representing them has gaslit them into believing otherwise. They are experts at feeding "victims" delusions of grandeur......

I guess GUNZ!!! is a hot topic now but it's weird how some cases attract ambulance chasers and others are ignored. Besides Cabelas, maybe the family has some money to strip regardless of outcome. The family would be much better served by donating to suicide prevention and mental health orgs.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I guess GUNZ!!! is a hot topic now but it's weird how some cases attract ambulance chasers and others are ignored. Besides Cabelas, maybe the family has some money to strip regardless of outcome. The family would be much better served by donating to suicide prevention and mental health orgs.

This is where we learn that even MLs aren't safe from prohibitionists. From "the Founders only had had muskets" to "turn them all in" in less than a generation.

 

[drgrant]

I guess GUNZ!!! is a hot topic now but it's weird how some cases attract ambulance chasers and others are ignored. Besides Cabelas, maybe the family has some money to strip regardless of outcome. The family would be much better served by donating to suicide prevention and mental health orgs.

Nah, ambulance chasers latch onto anything like annoying horseflies out for blood. I had encountered one years ago that suggested I sue a binding manufacturer because I blew out my knee doing something dumb while skiing.

They will literally try to talk people into anything if they believe that there's a chunk of change at the other end of the lawsuit.

 

[HuntMaine]

Cabela’s fcked up and now they will pay for it

 

[robjax]

Just to clear some things up here, it wasn't intentional suicide.

"In a lawsuit filed in Worcester Superior Court April 19, Robert Fillios and Sandra Landon are suing the Cabela's chain on behalf of Justin Fillios. The 20-year-old was trying to free a round stuck in the black powder-fired revolver in February 2020 when it went off and killed him."

 

[Sofistocat]

Just to clear some things up here, it wasn't intentional suicide.

"In a lawsuit filed in Worcester Superior Court April 19, Robert Fillios and Sandra Landon are suing the Cabela's chain on behalf of Justin Fillios. The 20-year-old was trying to free a round stuck in the black powder-fired revolver in February 2020 when it went off and killed him."

Can we coin "Tinker Around, Find Out" now?

I always make sure to have device with ball and powder loaded pointing at my vital organs when troubleshooting.

Next the family will file suit against Natrual Selection...

 

[Drix]

Would caps and balls be considered ammunition under Massachusetts law? They’re separate items I think.

Yes, it is. Powder, caps, balls, and expended brass shells are all ammunition or components.

 

[Palladin]

So, from the article:
Worcester police responded at around 5:30 a.m., the lawsuit said
A 20 year old and a buddy are playing with a cap and ball revolver at 5:00 a.m.. where the deceased takes said revolver and sticks it under his chin and pulls the trigger. I would say it was either a direct suicide, or there was multiple quantities of alcohol and or drugs involved, or he realized he was coming out of the closet and offed himself.

 

[Amputee Marksman]

Just to clear some things up here, it wasn't intentional suicide.

"In a lawsuit filed in Worcester Superior Court April 19, Robert Fillios and Sandra Landon are suing the Cabela's chain on behalf of Justin Fillios. The 20-year-old was trying to free a round stuck in the black powder-fired revolver in February 2020 when it went off and killed him."

Why is this classified as a suicide? Seems more the case of a ND.

 

[DW357]

Cabela’s fcked up and now they will pay for it

huh?

 

[Drix]

Much as I sympathize with the family for their loss, my gut tells me that they are simply looking to cash in on a tragedy and blame anyone but the person who pulled the trigger.

Cabelas tighten policies?

Internal policy is not likely binding law, but more importantly, MGL specifically.

Mgl140ss 121:

"Ammunition", cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any
firearm, rifle or shotgun. The term "ammunition" shall also mean tear gas cartridges.

I believe mgl also states you need a ltc or fid to purchase ammunition, I'm not sure I'm aware of an age limit without that requirement, but mgl is notoriously convoluted on the subject

 

[Broc]

Would caps and balls be considered ammunition under Massachusetts law? They’re separate items I think.

Cabelas cards for everything, maybe it started after this.

I tried to buy an empty MTM plastic box, they asked for my LTC. I told then to screw and walked out. Ordered from Amazon.

Edit to add:
I think the balls being "musket" balls, count as bullets. (I don't know the law around this). But it is f*ckinf stupid because a chunk of lead and a mold can be purchased and you can have all the bullets you want. All you need is a source of heat that can be obtained from a camp fire if you want to be cheap

But, you still need the caps and powder or BP substitute and that is regulated in MA.

 

[drgrant]

Cabelas cards for everything, maybe it started after this.

I tried to buy an empty MTM plastic box, they asked for my LTC. I told then to screw and walked out. Ordered from Amazon.

I got carded for an RCBS priming tool I bought it anyways because that was my whole point of going there and I wasn't going to waste the time getting into an argument or whatever but I'm not setting foot in there ever again outside of burning off a gift card i have there....

 

[Broc]

I got carded for an RCBS priming tool I bought it anyways because that was my whole point of going there and I wasn't going to waste the time getting into an argument or whatever but I'm not setting foot in there ever again outside of burning off a gift card i have there....

The way I see it, if I have to go to Cabelas it is because the local store doesn't sell it. Chances are Cabelas won't have it in stock and because I don't give a sh*t about Cableas I will order it online and save the time.

 

[MAGA99]

Why is this classified as a suicide? Seems more the case of a ND.

Not negligent. How many times do you point guns at yourself and pull the trigger, at 5am, with another dude present???

 

[Palladin]

Not negligent. How many times do you point guns at yourself and pull the trigger, at 5am, with another dude present???

this.

so he had the gun pointed under his chin, loaded, WITH a percussion cap on.......and he was trying to extract the loaded ball???

yeah, ok

I say he did a pretty good job of extracting it

 

[MAGA99]

this.

so he had the gun pointed under his chin, loaded, WITH a percussion cap on.......and he was trying to extract the loaded ball???

yeah, ok

Well….he cleared the muzzle alright….

Probably cleared his buddies muzzle too….

 

[Amputee Marksman]

Not negligent. How many times do you point guns at yourself and pull the trigger, at 5am, with another dude present???

That depends on how much I've had to drink

When I wrote that comment I wasn't aware of the specifics of how he was trying to extract the ball.