Massachusetts family suing Cabela's over ammunition sale in son's death

[replica]

Massachusetts family suing Cabela's over ammunition sale in son's death​

dont know if this came out right, dont know how to do "links" to a story.
legally bought 1851 black powder revolver
he was age 20, said that was not old enough to buy the ammo
It's a cap and ball, thought he could buy some ammo
he shot himself in head, family said it was accidental.

 

[rudiewhitebwoy]

Like This;

Family of late Mass. man suing retailer over ammunition sale

The lawsuit says the 20-year-old could legally buy the Civil War era replica in Massachusetts, but he was not old enough to buy the ammunition without a proper ID card.

www.wcvb.com

 

[Rockrivr1]

If he was that depressed he would have found a way to kill himself gun or no gun. Unfortunately

 

[AtoTheK]

Would caps and balls be considered ammunition under Massachusetts law? They’re separate items I think.

 

[Mountain]

Always sad when a young person takes his or her own life. I get how an upset family may want to lash out but IMHO this family is misguided.

"Whether or not people want to assume it was intentional or was accidental, the bottom line is it could have been prevented," Bobby Fillios said.

Most likely it was intentional and the family does not want to accept that.

 

[snax]

From the article -


"While at age 20, Fillios could legally buy the Civil War-era replica, he was not old enough to buy the ammunition.

"It was illegal to sell the accessories and the ammo to someone under 21 years old or without proper ID card," David Hoeys, the attorney representing the family said. "That's their policy and that's the law. They didn't follow the law."

 

[whatluck]

 

[EMTDAD]

there's a reason why every item in that department rings up with a flag at the register to check for ID. I've even been asked ID for reloading manuals, just because the system is set up that way and the cashier doesn't know any better.

We bitch about it, but there are even people here who don't know if black powder ammo is considered ammo under Mass law. Nevermind a cashier with no firearms experience.

I'd be shocked that some cashier sold him the components and overrode the register flag to check ID. Then again, maybe I wouldn't be so shocked.

Likely to settle out of court. But I'd be interesting to see how a case like this would hinge on the definition of ammo & ammo components in MA law.

 

[Road_Clam]

That article as always is of course biased written enciting Cabelas neglegence . Lacking details within this article so im not concluding anything.

By definition a cap and ball pistol is NOT a firearm.

To my knowledge there is no age restrictions on buying the COMPONENTS necessary to load a C&B pistol.

Percussion caps legal or not for sale in MA ?

But heres the thing there is "cartridge conversions" available and now we are by definition talking a firearm that requires loaded hangun ammo, which yes that would have been illegal to purchase .

 

[MAGA99]

How do they know he bought it from cabelas? Maybe he went to cabelas in Maine or bass pro in NH.

It’s sad, but the only person at fault here is the one who pointed a loaded gun at themselves and pulled the trigger.

 

[pdm]

Yeah, it was preventable. Preventable by his f***ing family. That they're seeking cash after this tells me all I need to know about their humanity.

 

[Sparky123]

The sad truth is this, stupid people die young. It happens all the time. Stupid people die from drug overdoses, car accidents and some shoot themselves. But the idea that we can sue drug companies, automakers, gun companies, and gun dealers is just insane. Even stupid people at some point have to take responsibility for their own actions.

 

[cjbenway]

In Mass you need a firearms license to purchase ammunition (including separate components of). FID or LTC.
The story is full of holes.

General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 121

malegislature.gov

 

[Sofistocat]

"How many times does it have to happen before corporate Cabela's wakes up and says, we're not doing enough?" Hoeys said
=====

How many times is this shit gonna happen before the family wakes up and says "we're not doing enough"?

They were either complacent with him mishandling firearms if it was really a accident or complacent he had issues calling for a suicide.

Asking for over a million, but it's to "have them tighten up their policies"...

 

[FPrice]

Their attorney says the lawsuit aims to force Cabela's to tighten policies.

Much as I sympathize with the family for their loss, my gut tells me that they are simply looking to cash in on a tragedy and blame anyone but the person who pulled the trigger.

 

[bigbravehog]

If he was that depressed he would have found a way to kill himself gun or no gun. Unfortunately

kids are dropping dead from the tik tok Benadryl challenge. Are they suing tik tok ?

 

[Toast]

Would caps and balls be considered ammunition under Massachusetts law? They’re separate items I think.

It would appear that they are considered "black powder" ammunition, and that it is not regulated as regular ammunition. It's clearly legal for a 20-year-old to possess it, but purchasing it is less clear:

MGL Chapter 140​

Section 129C.​

No person, other than a licensed dealer or one who has been issued a license to carry a pistol or revolver or an exempt person as hereinafter described, shall own or possess any firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition unless he has been issued a firearm identification card by the licensing authority pursuant to the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine B.​

​

No person shall sell, give away, loan or otherwise transfer a rifle or shotgun or ammunition other than (a) by operation of law, or (b) to an exempt person as hereinafter described, or (c) to a licensed dealer, or (d) to a person who displays his firearm identification card, or license to carry a pistol or revolver.​

​

The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:​

(p) Carrying or possession by residents or nonresidents of so-called black powder rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor as described in such paragraphs (A) and (B) of the third paragraph of section 121, and the carrying or possession of conventional rifles, shotguns, and ammunition therefor by nonresidents who meet the requirements for such carrying or possession in the state in which they reside.​

Of course, the usual caveats about reading MA laws as though they mean what they say is always required.


GOAL's take on the matter:

Even though a person does not need any license to purchase or possess a primitive arm, one must show proof of majority (over 18) for purchase or possession. There are no reporting requirements for antique firearms either at the federal level (Form 4473) or at the state level (F/A-10). Because of conflicts in state law, however, a Massachusetts dealer will ask for a license or card in order for you to purchase ammunition for the primitive arm.​

GOAL - Primitve Arms

www.goal.org

 

[M1911]

Would caps and balls be considered ammunition under Massachusetts law? They’re separate items I think.

Yes.

here is the definition of ammunition in MGL Chapter 140 Section 121:

Ammunition'', cartridges or cartridge cases, primers (igniter), bullets or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm, rifle or shotgun. The term ''ammunition'' shall also mean tear gas cartridges.

Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

 

[Jason Flare]

Yes.

here is the definition of ammunition in MGL Chapter 140 Section 121:


Full text here: https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section121

Is the pistol a firearm under MA law?

 

[edin508]

Just to clear some things up here, it wasn't intentional suicide.

"In a lawsuit filed in Worcester Superior Court April 19, Robert Fillios and Sandra Landon are suing the Cabela's chain on behalf of Justin Fillios. The 20-year-old was trying to free a round stuck in the black powder-fired revolver in February 2020 when it went off and killed him."

 

[M1911]

Is the pistol a firearm under MA law?

Sure seems to be to me.

Firearm'', a stun gun or a pistol, revolver or other weapon of any description, loaded or unloaded, from which a shot or bullet can be discharged and of which the length of the barrel or barrels is less than 16 inches or 18 inches in the case of a shotgun as originally manufactured; provided, however, that the term firearm shall not include any weapon that is: (i) constructed in a shape that does not resemble a handgun, short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun including, but not limited to, covert weapons that resemble key-chains, pens, cigarette-lighters or cigarette-packages; or (ii) not detectable as a weapon or potential weapon by x-ray machines commonly used at airports or walk- through metal detectors.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Sure seems to be to me.

Exception:
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade

I.E., "primitive firearms"

 

[Enzo]

from the story on MassLive.

Wrongful death lawsuit directed at Cabela's after Worcester man dies, report says

The 20-year-old was reportedly trying to “unjam or dislodge ammunition” from the gun when it went off.

www.masslive.com

“Reverse engineering and tinkering were Justin’s passions,” his obituary read. “He was a master at figuring out how things work. You could never be sure what he might disassemble, but his talent assured it would be fixed and repaired when he was done.”

 

[M1911]

Exception:
(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade

I.E., "primitive firearms"

That doesn’t change the definition of the word firearm, just limits what sections apply to primitive weapons.

 

[Mesatchornug]

That exception is not in the definition of the word firearm. It is in a different section of the law.

Correct. It's the end of S121:

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to[...]

So, everywhere that we [commonly] use this definition, it doesn't include [primitive firearms]. This would not, however, protect someone who possessed it at a school, for example.

 

[pastera]

It looks like he was entirely within the law to possess the black powder gun and ammo under 129C exemption (o)
Section 130 allows sales as excepted by 131E but 131E

may purchase ammunition from a licensee under section 122B subject to the following conditions and restrictions:

131E:

(b) firearms and feeding devices therefor, including large capacity firearms and large capacity feeding devices therefor, may be so purchased only upon presentment of: (i) a valid license to carry firearms issued pursuant to section 131; (ii) a valid firearm identification card issued pursuant to section 129B; or (iii) valid proof of exempt status under section 129C; provided, however, that neither a firearm identification card issued pursuant to said section 129B nor proof of exempt status under said section 129C shall be valid to purchase a firearm or ammunition feeding device therefor, including large capacity firearms and large capacity feeding devices therefor, without being presented together with a valid and proper permit to purchase issued under section 131A; and provided further, that an alien permit to possess a rifle or shotgun shall not be valid to purchase firearms, ammunition or ammunition feeding devices therefor; and provided further, that no firearm, ammunition or ammunition feeding device therefor shall be sold to a person younger than 21 years of age.

Notice that the "ammunition or ammunition feeding device" is linked to the term "firearm" by the word "therfor" so if the ammo wasn't for a firearm it's legal to sell if qualified previously (by Sect 129C)

But this SJC case finds that anything produced before 1900 isn't a firearm and Section 121 states

The provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;

(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

So it looks like Cabelas lawfully sold both the gun and components to him.

But they are going to settle anyhow since it will be cheaper to do so

 

[pastera]

That doesn’t change the definition of the word firearm, just limits what sections apply to primitive weapons.

COMMONWEALTH vs. Liquarry C. JEFFERSON and Commonwealth vs. Leslie Burton-Brown

NOTICE: The slip opinions and orders posted on this Web site are subject to formal revision and are superseded by the advance sheets and bound volumes of the Official Reports. This preliminary material will be removed from the Web site once the advance sheets of the Official Reports are...

www.universalhub.com

140 Sec 121:

he provisions of sections 122 to 129D, inclusive, and sections 131, 131A, 131B and 131E shall not apply to:

(A) any firearm, rifle or shotgun manufactured in or prior to the year 1899;

(B) any replica of any firearm, rifle or shotgun described in clause (A) if such replica: (i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition; or (ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; and

(C) manufacturers or wholesalers of firearms, rifles, shotguns or machine guns.

Yes, black powder replica gun ARE NOT firearms

 

[Dennis in MA]

Always sad when a young person takes his or her own life. I get how an upset family may want to lash out but IMHO this family is misguided.

"Whether or not people want to assume it was intentional or was accidental, the bottom line is it could have been prevented," Bobby Fillios said.

Most likely it was intentional and the family does not want to accept that.

This is mASS. "If we banned all guns, our son would be alive." Mmmmmm, maybe. But the law isn't based on feelings anyhow. But this is mASS.

Cabelas will settle in the end. Quietly with a shushhy-order in place.

 

[M1911]

COMMONWEALTH vs. Liquarry C. JEFFERSON and Commonwealth vs. Leslie Burton-Brown

NOTICE: The slip opinions and orders posted on this Web site are subject to formal revision and are superseded by the advance sheets and bound volumes of the Official Reports. This preliminary material will be removed from the Web site once the advance sheets of the Official Reports are...

www.universalhub.com

140 Sec 121:


Yes, black powder replica gun ARE NOT firearms

I disagree but it is a nuance. They ARE firearms, however the sections that require an LTC to possess/carry don’t apply to them, as shown in the exception that Mesatchornug posted above. That exception didn’t say that “primitive firearms aren’t firearms”. Instead it said that certain sections don’t apply to primitive weapons.

 

[Chevy 2 65]

crazy world