Manufactuing/Industrial zoning needed around Boston for 07 FFL.

[JMC Arms]

Hey guys, One Eyed Jack said I don't need to keep any inventory on site. Can anyone confirm or deny? I always like getting a second opinion when possible!

Steve

Order the fed handbooks from the ATF forms website. Read up. Jack has read them completely and understands the law from them. They actually answer most issues pretty plainly. If they don't the ATF bulletins with clarifications in them usually help. Yes, inventory can be stored off site. Properly marked to differentiate it from your personally owned firearms. Your IOI interview can clarify this stuff.

My own opinion is that if you rent the IOI will reach out to the owner, police chief and zoning to see if anyone blocks you. I don't see Brookline approving of any local FFLs. If you build SBRs expect to have to pay for your SOT. LLC is $500 a year. Building for sale on a sole prop FFL is a dangerous thing, liability wise to me.


ITAR regulates trade of arms. Pretty much anything relating to firearms is regulated through the current enterpretation. Whether you export or not is irrelevant. Only a pure R&D can get away without paying ITAR and that was put to paper only a short while ago.

FYI. The Feds are trying to say that posting technical specs on regulated items on the Internet from the manufacturer is "exporting" and you can get jammed up since it can be seen in restricted countries. (What a rabbit hole this is ...)

 

[DrBurnsides]

There is an R&D exception: https://www.pmddtc.state.gov/regulations_laws/documents/official_itar/2014/ITAR_Part_122.pdf

So If you don't sell any completed rifles, but just work on designs and R&D? Interesting..

 

[browncoat]

So If you don't sell any completed rifles, but just work on designs and R&D? Interesting..

The designs themselves would probably fall under ITAR. That's what Cody Wilson's group got hit with.


Basically before something leaves your company, designs or manufactured items, you are required to be registered

I think there might be an ongoing federal case about the first amendment ramifications of ITAR, but the constitution is worth a lot less than the paper it was written on these days

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

http://www.kelleytree.com/

Owner is a buddy. Good dude. Loves guns, hates liberals.

 

[pochito413]

http://www.kelleytree.com/

Owner is a buddy. Good dude. Loves guns, hates liberals.

Think this was meant to go in the other thread about the apple tree lol

 

[EddieZoom]

After careful analysis I believe the root cause of your challenge is here

Hey guys,

I've recently moved to Brookline from Montana

SWG

Seriously, good luck man. Welcome to MA. Everything just got harder and more expensive.

 

[Mr. Brownstone]

Think this was meant to go in the other thread about the apple tree lol

WOW. I knew I was tired, but thats it, I'm turning in early.

 

[Spanz]

there are good industrial spaces in Chelsea just over the line from boston, and the building inspectors there are reasonable people.

 

[dcmdon]

Thank you, I'll find out about it. I'm almost completely certain that my current address won't work, but it's worth a shot.

Steve

Your current address could work as an 07 FFL. As long as you don't want to do retail gunsmithing or retail sales/transfers. These activities would require a state license.

There are a few key things to research.

1) confirm that your zoning district allows "customary home occupation" or alternately a "home occupation".
2) Confirm who your zoning or building official is.
3) Confirm who your town attorney is. (since the building official will probably send this request to the cops and the attorney for review)

With the advent of the Internet and Gunbroker, its easy to convince the ATF that you plan to engage in commerce in firearms even without a storefront or regular business hours.

That leaves only 1 thing. You need to convince the ATF that you are in compliance with local laws. The Boston ATF is savvy to the fact that you don't need a state license to have a FFL. So the key is to get your (in CT) zoning enforcement officer or (in MA) building official to play ball.

I had one ZEO raise the objection that the businesses anticipated 2 UPS pickups per week would be a problem. The applicant was able to show that he receives approximately 3 UPS deliveries per week from Amazon Prime. So UPS could just pick up when they were there for the delivery.

PM me. I've assisted people in getting a home based FFL in MA and CT.

Don

 

[dcmdon]

Hey guys, One Eyed Jack said I don't need to keep any inventory on site. Can anyone confirm or deny? I always like getting a second opinion when possible!

Steve

Agreed. Off-site storage facilities are not unusual. You don't think Four Seasons keeps his entire inventory in that tiny store?

From the FFL newsletter:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/federal-firearms-licensees-newsletter-march-2006/download

page 8

It should be noted that any FFL receiving firearms at locations other than their licensed premises must maintain accurate records of acquisition and disposition of firearms. The acquisition of firearms must be recorded by the close of the following business day or, if commercial records are maintained, within 7 days following the acquisition (See 27 CFR 478.125(e) and (g)). In the event of an ATF compliance inspection, the FFL must make all records and firearms inventory available for inspection. In addition, if the location is used as a continuous off-site storage facility, the FFL must notify the FFLC so that the address can be placed on file.

 

[Steve_P]

While on the subject of mass dealers license, does anyone know what the fee for that license is?


Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[dcmdon]

A friend of mine who has had a home based FFL in MA for years just got his MA license based on the presence of a detached garage in his side yard. I will check with him.

Remember, it is your local PD, not the state that determines if that adjunct structure meets the legal requirement for a State of MA license. So your mileage WILL vary based on your local PD.

Don

 

[s11033]

Your current address could work as an 07 FFL. As long as you don't want to do retail gunsmithing or retail sales/transfers. These activities would require a state license.

There are a few key things to research.

1) confirm that your zoning district allows "customary home occupation" or alternately a "home occupation".
2) Confirm who your zoning or building official is.
3) Confirm who your town attorney is. (since the building official will probably send this request to the cops and the attorney for review)

With the advent of the Internet and Gunbroker, its easy to convince the ATF that you plan to engage in commerce in firearms even without a storefront or regular business hours.

That leaves only 1 thing. You need to convince the ATF that you are in compliance with local laws. The Boston ATF is savvy to the fact that you don't need a state license to have a FFL. So the key is to get your (in CT) zoning enforcement officer or (in MA) building official to play ball.

I had one ZEO raise the objection that the businesses anticipated 2 UPS pickups per week would be a problem. The applicant was able to show that he receives approximately 3 UPS deliveries per week from Amazon Prime. So UPS could just pick up when they were there for the delivery.

PM me. I've assisted people in getting a home based FFL in MA and CT.

Don

Sending a PM now.

Thanks!

Steve

 

[Asaltweapon]

A friend of mine who has had a home based FFL in MA for years just got his MA license based on the presence of a detached garage in his side yard. I will check with him.

Remember, it is your local PD, not the state that determines if that adjunct structure meets the legal requirement for a State of MA license. So your mileage WILL vary based on your local PD.

Don

I have a buddy down the street from me with the same set up. The building inspector was also involved because the COP asked him due to the fact the BI is also the code enforcement officer.

 

[s11033]

Order the fed handbooks from the ATF forms website. Read up. Jack has read them completely and understands the law from them. They actually answer most issues pretty plainly. If they don't the ATF bulletins with clarifications in them usually help. Yes, inventory can be stored off site. Properly marked to differentiate it from your personally owned firearms. Your IOI interview can clarify this stuff.

My own opinion is that if you rent the IOI will reach out to the owner, police chief and zoning to see if anyone blocks you. I don't see Brookline approving of any local FFLs. If you build SBRs expect to have to pay for your SOT. LLC is $500 a year. Building for sale on a sole prop FFL is a dangerous thing, liability wise to me.


ITAR regulates trade of arms. Pretty much anything relating to firearms is regulated through the current enterpretation. Whether you export or not is irrelevant. Only a pure R&D can get away without paying ITAR and that was put to paper only a short while ago.

FYI. The Feds are trying to say that posting technical specs on regulated items on the Internet from the manufacturer is "exporting" and you can get jammed up since it can be seen in restricted countries. (What a rabbit hole this is ...)

Thanks a lot for the info. I will be using an LLC and will have good insurance coverage.

I'm 100% sure my current landlord (management company with super restrictive lease contract) would block me, so I'm looking to rent some space from Saxonville Arsenal in Framingham. I got in touch with David thanks to a post on this thread!

Regarding SOT, the only NFA items I plan to have are 1 SBR lower and 1 suppressor, both for R&D on 300 BLK and 338 Specter uppers. My understanding is that I wouldn't have to pay SOT if I won't be building or selling NFA items, correct? I will be selling short barreled uppers, but no SBRs.

ITAR sucks, but I'll certainly be paying it.

Thanks again for all the input!

Steve

 

[s11033]

After careful analysis I believe the root cause of your challenge is here



Seriously, good luck man. Welcome to MA. Everything just got harder and more expensive.

Thank you, the well wishes are very much appreciated!

Steve

 

[s11033]

there are good industrial spaces in Chelsea just over the line from boston, and the building inspectors there are reasonable people.

Thank you, I'll be looking into Chelsea if I can't figure something out with Saxonville Arsenal. Although Saxonville is a bit further, I think I would benefit from having another FFL there and also from having some access to tooling.

Best,

Steve

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Regarding SOT, the only NFA items I plan to have are 1 SBR lower and 1 suppressor, both for R&D on 300 BLK and 338 Specter uppers. My understanding is that I wouldn't have to pay SOT if I won't be building or selling NFA items, correct? I will be selling short barreled uppers, but no SBRs.

Under MA law, the only way you can have an suppressor in MA at present is to be a federally licensed manufacturer. See MGL Ch 269 Section 10a. The feds won't consider you to be a "manufacturer" of cans unless you have both an 07 FFL and pay the SOT.

The good news is you don't need ITAR registration if your only mfg activity is R&D with no sales.

 

[headednorth]

Under MA law, the only way you can have an suppressor in MA at present is to be a federally licensed manufacturer. See MGL Ch 269 Section 10a. The feds won't consider you to be a "manufacturer" of cans unless you have both an 07 FFL and pay the SOT.

The good news is you don't need ITAR registration if your only mfg activity is R&D with no sales.

So if ATF requires you to be in business rather than it being a hobby and ITAR is waived if youre doing r&d, how do you justify the r&d if youre not making any sales? What are you developing for if you cant make any sales? If youre researching but not making sales, isnt it a hobby? Seems like you can comply with ATF, or comply with State, but not both. Where's the middle ground?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So if ATF requires you to be in business rather than it being a hobby and ITAR is waived if youre doing r&d, how do you justify the r&d if youre not making any sales? What are you developing for if you cant make any sales? If youre researching but not making sales, isnt it a hobby? Seems like you can comply with ATF, or comply with State, but not both. Where's the middle ground?

Several avenues:

- Consultant to firearms manufacturers (use form 3 for SOt to SOT transfer)
- R&D with the intent of becoming a product organization later
- R&D with the intent of filing patents for potential royalties

 

[s11033]

Under MA law, the only way you can have an suppressor in MA at present is to be a federally licensed manufacturer. See MGL Ch 269 Section 10a. The feds won't consider you to be a "manufacturer" of cans unless you have both an 07 FFL and pay the SOT.

The good news is you don't need ITAR registration if your only mfg activity is R&D with no sales.

I see. I certainly plan to sell products, both uppers complete rifles. I thought the legislation just said that I need to be a federally licensed manufacturer, not a federally licensed manufacturer of NFA items. Wouldn't an 07 be considered a federally licensed manufacturer since it includes covers NFA items with the exception of destructive devices?

Thank you,

Steve

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I thought the legislation just said that I need to be a federally licensed manufacturer, not a federally licensed manufacturer of NFA items. Wouldn't an 07 be considered a federally licensed manufacturer since it includes covers NFA items with the exception of destructive devices?

As with many MA gun laws, the details are vague and subject to interpretation.

There is an implied "of silencers" in the law. Taken literally, you could have a license to manufacture a product completely unrelated to guns and argue you "have a license to manufacture". If you have an 07 FFL, you are not licensed to manufacture cans unless you also pay the SOT. (One eye and others can comment if I have that detail incorrect)

 

[s11033]

As with many MA gun laws, the details are vague and subject to interpretation.

There is an implied "of silencers" in the law. Taken literally, you could have a license to manufacture a product completely unrelated to guns and argue you "have a license to manufacture". If you have an 07 FFL, you are not licensed to manufacture cans unless you also pay the SOT. (One eye and others can comment if I have that detail incorrect)

I'd love to get some other opinions on that and appreciate guys chiming in.

My understanding is that the Class 2 SOT would cost $500 per year since I will most likely be grossing less than $500k per year.

Also, Saxonville Arsenal, who I plan to rent a space from, is an 07 with Class 2 SOT. I wonder if I could somehow be considered a consultant to them. What would be the requirements?

Steve

 

[Minuteman Armament]

While on the subject of mass dealers license, does anyone know what the fee for that license is?


Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

$100 per license or $200 for all three

- - - Updated - - -

I see. I certainly plan to sell products, both uppers complete rifles. I thought the legislation just said that I need to be a federally licensed manufacturer, not a federally licensed manufacturer of NFA items. Wouldn't an 07 be considered a federally licensed manufacturer since it includes covers NFA items with the exception of destructive devices?

Thank you,

Steve

You need to pay $500 a year every July 1st to touch NFA stuff. If you are not, then you don't need to pay it and can continue to manufacture title 1 firearms.

 

[kalash]

Under MA law, the only way you can have an suppressor in MA at present is to be a federally licensed manufacturer. See MGL Ch 269 Section 10a. The feds won't consider you to be a "manufacturer" of cans unless you have both an 07 FFL and pay the SOT.

The good news is you don't need ITAR registration if your only mfg activity is R&D with no sales.

Would you have to manufacture the suppressor yourself? I was under the impression that no, you would be able to purchase it if you're an 07/SOT.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I THINK that you can buy a suppressor with the 07, no SOT, but pay the $200 tax. Would have to confirm with ATF or find it in the regs. Jack.

 

[s11033]

I THINK that you can buy a suppressor with the 07, no SOT, but pay the $200 tax. Would have to confirm with ATF or find it in the regs. Jack.

Could you please provide a bit of input when you get a chance into how to go about consulting with the ATF or how to look for this point in the regs? Would I also have to worry about MA regs or do the ATF's regs cover this?

Like I said, I won't be selling any NFA items, but I plan to sell 300 Blk and 338 Spectre uppers that are intended for suppressed use on pistols or SBRs and I think that having a suppressor and an SBR lower would benefit my R&D as well as my marketing materials.

Thank you,

Steve

 

[one-eyed Jack]

Could you please provide a bit of input when you get a chance into how to go about consulting with the ATF or how to look for this point in the regs? Would I also have to worry about MA regs or do the ATF's regs cover this?

Like I said, I won't be selling any NFA items, but I plan to sell 300 Blk and 338 Spectre uppers that are intended for suppressed use on pistols or SBRs and I think that having a suppressor and an SBR lower would benefit my R&D as well as my marketing materials.

Thank you,

Steve

You should REALLY start by calling the Boston ATF office and requesting a copy of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. And the State Laws and Published Ordinances-Firearms. You can get it on line, but it's 700 pages. This will be worth more than the 1,000 guesses and opinions you will get here. Call Lisa at 617-780-2359. Tell her that Jack from Littleton sent you. Jack.

 

[s11033]

You should REALLY start by calling the Boston ATF office and requesting a copy of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide. And the State Laws and Published Ordinances-Firearms. You can get it on line, but it's 700 pages. This will be worth more than the 1,000 guesses and opinions you will get here. Call Lisa at 617-780-2359. Tell her that Jack from Littleton sent you. Jack.

Thank you!

Steve