MA: Identifying Pre-Ban Glock Mags

[Moderator]

They work, but IMO, it's the same as driving a car with four donut tires
on it. Semantically speaking, the car isn't broken, but it certainly
is crippled. Maybe "crippled in more than just capacity" is the term I
should have used.

With respect, donuts are designed for a short distance of travel like to the nearest garage or to get home not for everyday use. Most 10 round magazines are designed to be used at the range or for everyday carry purpose. In fact I am willing to bet that there are more of the high cap magazines that are designed for range use then low caps. Example, I have two 20 round magazines for my 1911 that would make it almost impossible to carry the gun while still trying to conceal.

 

[FPrice]

I think this is a false staement. Do you have proof of this?

Speaking for myself, I have found that "most" AWB 10-round Glock and Sig magazines are very difficult to load to the 10-round maximum. A few people I know who are in with the firearms industry state that this is done on purpose in order to avoid any suggestion that companies were not complying with the Federal ban

In direct contrast virtually all of the normal capacity magazines from these two companies can easily be loaded to their advertised maximum.

I consider the former situation to meet the definition of "broken".

 

[Moderator]

Difficult as in you cannot load the maximum 10 rounds or difficult as in the last round is a tight fit?

 

[Cross-X]

I have banned all low-cap mags from my high-cap handguns.

 

[drgrant]

With respect, donuts are designed for a short distance of travel like to the nearest garage or to get home not for everyday use. Most 10 round magazines are designed to be used at the range or for everyday carry purpose. In fact I am willing to bet that there are more of the high cap magazines that are designed for range use then low caps. Example, I have two 20 round magazines for my 1911 that would make it almost impossible to carry the gun while still trying to conceal.

The difference there is a 7 or 8 round magazine in a 1911 was not "hacked" to
fufill its mission. (although some purists would argue the 8 rounders are
an abomination, but thats a whole nother topic!) As a matter of fact
I own a ton of low capacity 1911 magazines like that (7, 8, and 10
rounds) but those are not broken.... What I'm talking about is not just any 10
round magazines, as there are many of those that work just fine- I'm talking about
the 10 round magazines which have to fit in a full size doublestack magazine well, one that
was meant to hold magazines of larger capacity. There is often a big difference
between magazines which exist due to dimensional limitations and magazines which only
exist as a result of bureaucratic bs. (A 1911 mag is only 7 or 8 rounds because thats simply all
you can fit in the well, not because some dumb law forced it to be that way).
A G19 10 rounder or a P226 10 rounder are prime examples of hackneyed 10 round magazines.
If there was no AWB, those magazines probably would have never been created. They don't
provide the user with any perceptible benefit other than a sore thumb, and more difficult
maintenance, and possibly erratic performance and other quirks.

-Mike

 

[FPrice]

I have banned all low-cap mags from my high-cap handguns.

Isn't that a violation of their civil rights? Are you discriminating against "diminished capacity" magazines?

IMWTK.

 

[FPrice]

Difficult as in you cannot load the maximum 10 rounds or difficult as in the last round is a tight fit?

Some are difficult, others are downright impossible.

edited to add: What good is a magazine which you have to fight to load to capacity?

 

[Len-2A Training]

FWIW, when the federal law was intact it basically said that lack of
the crime bill markings was pretty much the burden of proof required for the
accused to assert that their magazines were preban. Whether MA has
adopted this verbatim or not is a different story, and I don't even know if
there is any case law on the issue.

TTBOMK, there is no such provision in MGL's hi-cap ban. Thus even if unmarked . . . if prosecuted under MGL I would think that you do not have the protection of stating that "they aren't marked, so they must be OK" to fall back on.

I am not aware of anyone prosecuted for possession of banned mags although the person possessed an LTC-A. In most cases, they will plea-bargain most/all gun charges so you get screwed, but no case law gets made that way.

 

[Cross-X]

Isn't that a violation of their civil rights? Are you discriminating against "diminished capacity" magazines?

IMWTK.

Yup.

 

[Moderator]

Some are difficult, others are downright impossible.

If it is impossible then I would say it's broken. If it's difficult then I would say it's a company making sure they comply with federal and/or state laws.

edited to add: What good is a magazine which you have to fight to load to capacity?

If I can get the last round in and the gun does not fail then it's still a good magazine. Would you complain about a 100 round beta mag that you have to squeeze the last round into? Either way I htink it is still "good".

 

[FPrice]

If I can get the last round in and the gun does not fail then it's still a good magazine. Would you complain about a 100 round beta mag that you have to squeeze the last round into? Either way I htink it is still "good"

I am reminded of Patrick Swayze's line from Roadhouse:

"Opinions vary."

 

[Moderator]

roger that,

 

[Lugnut]

I have banned all low-cap mags from my high-cap handguns.

I like that strategy! I still haven't found any for my G19 though.

Drgrant-
I've used 10 round "crippled" magazines for many of my Sigs- 229 .40, 228, and 226 9mm. Not a single problem. I use my 226 and 228 in IDPA. Once for "play" I unloaded my 229 as fast as I could on a target with the 10 round mag and it performed without a single hitch as it always has. I just don't think they are any less reliable. Not as preferable, but just as reliable.

 

[Len-2A Training]

OK, I finally got a copy of an authoritative book that will help muddy the waters even further. Just started reading it yesterday, but I highly recommend it for those interested in Glocks. [NOTE: He is a big 1911 fan and has a book on that topic too, also highly recommended.]

Source:
"The Gun Digest Book of the Glock"
A Comprehensive Review
* Design * History * Use
by Patrick Sweeney
Publisher: KP Krause Publications
ISBN: 0-87349-558-6
Published in 2003 [IMPORTANT: Note BEFORE Fed AWB lifted.]
MSRP $27.99 (Amazon: $17.63)

Magazines: Pg. 199

On the matter of the 1st and 2nd variant LEO magazines, I had been assured by a Glock representative ("no photos, please, and don't quote me") that the change to the 2nd variant had occurred after the Crime Bill went into effect in 1994. As a result, there were no pre-ban 2nd variant magazines extant and no 1st variant LEO-only magazines. And yet, the very next day one of my club members showed me his pre-ban 2nd variant drop free magazine! It was Glock marked, with no funny business about LEO markings or somebody else's magazine tube.

The above tracks info that I have been told by a trusted (by me) source here in MA!

I am on an eList with Patrick Sweeney and have learned to respect his writings, so I give full credence to what he published above in 2003. My discussions with the Glock Tech Supt folks in the US also give credence to the mass confusion of what is MA-legal (pre-ban) vs. what isn't.

 

[southshoresig]

LEO mags

My friend has an 11 round Glock mag marked LEO/MIL Only 9/14/94 is this illegal for a non LEO to own or carry in MA ?

 

[Len-2A Training]

There are probably a dozen threads here on the MA bans. Reading this entire thread will probably also give you that info.

The short answer is . . . yes, possession is a felony in MA!

Long answer, you should spend some time reading the threads in Gun Laws to fully educate yourself (and friend) to make sure you stay out of deep trouble. You need to go to User CP and set it to see "ALL THREADS" to scroll thru them. Advanced Search will find anything, but it's kind of clunky and won't find anything with less than 4 characters in the search window.

 

[southshoresig]

Is it illegal because of date or the LE/MIL Restricted marking, because I saw it again yesterday and it marked was 9/13/94 not 9/14/94, does that make a difference? All this hassle and it's the difference between stock 10 round and "Restricted" 11 round magazines! Seems ridiculous, aye?

 

[JonJ]

Definition as per MGL chp140s121

“Large capacity feeding device”, (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term “large capacity feeding device” shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

 

[FPrice]

I have been offered some G19 15-round magazines but cannot determine if they are pre- or post-ban. They have the "9mm" up towards the top of the space above the witness holes, but they also have the distinct ridges on both sides of the magazine body, not the sloped side on the right side. Think the pre-ban mag as shown in the pic in the first post but with the caliber written at the top.

Pre-ban or post?

 

[Cross-X]

I have been offered some G19 15-round magazines but cannot determine if they are pre- or post-ban. They have the "9mm" up towards the top of the space above the witness holes, but they also have the distinct ridges on both sides of the magazine body, not the sloped side on the right side. Think the pre-ban mag as shown in the pic in the first post but with the caliber written at the top.

Pre-ban or post?

To be sure, buy 'em, then send 'em to me for long term testing. I'll let you know in a year or so.

 

[Lugnut]

Are prebans for G19s hard to find? I honestly haven't looked yet but wouldn't mind getting some as long as it's not like finding a needle in a haystack. My Hicap postbans are seeing little use up in Maine....

 

[FPrice]

Are prebans for G19s hard to find? I honestly haven't looked yet but wouldn't mind getting some as long as it's not like finding a needle in a haystack. My Hicap postbans are seeing little use up in Maine....

You have to look but they are out there. I just got 5 pre-ban G17 mags at a reasonable price.

 

[FPrice]

To be sure, buy 'em, then send 'em to me for long term testing. I'll let you know in a year or so.

You are soooo good to me!

 

[calsdad]

So I finally got my LTC Class A on Friday - and the first thing I did was go right out and buy myself a Glock 22 refurb from one of friendly reputable gun shops. It came in the case - with the Glock refurb sticker on it - and 2 high capacity mags.

So I get home, and start looking around as to where I can get a few more mags for it so I don't have to spend time loading mags when I go to the range. I see a few Ebay auctions with 10round mags that look like pretty good deals, but then I start reading this thread because I am wondering about maybe getting a few more high-cap mags.

When I compare the two mags I got with the gun to the picture on the first page they look like post ban - the ".40" number is up near the top, not lower down like the mag on the left. I can't find any other designation on the mags themselves that would indicate any date code, etc.

I have to say WTF? Even after reading this whole thread I still can't figure out what I have for mags. The dealer sold them to me - did he sell me something illegal? I hit two other dealers before buying from this one - they both had 22's in stock with high cap mags. I see posts in this thread that directly contradict each other. If we can't figure out what is a pre-ban high cap and a post-ban high cap Glock mag how would a cop or politician possibly know??

 

[Len-2A Training]

If you figure it out, please give Glock Tech Supt - US a call and let them know? [Not kidding, I had an interesting chat with them and they admitted that Austria makes continual changes to mags and refuses to inform Glock-US what is what.]

It's clear as mud, but my suspicion is that they are most likely post-ban mags. At least two distributors are telling MA dealers that they are pre-ban, but indications (follower numbers, etc.) seem to indicate otherwise.

My best advice is to order pre-ban mags from folks in free states that actually know what they own because they bought them during the Fed Ban. Check places like AR15.com's EE, GlockTalk, etc. for these.

 

[andy t]

This issue not only extends to glock mags, but to AR mags as well. Just today I was at a well respected shop, which had a bunch of AR mags. Since they were 30 rounders, I assumed they were pre-ban. However, they all looked brand new, in wrap, and the baseplate read a company name, that I think (am fairly confident here), did not even exist BEFORE the ban!!! However, what really pisses me off, is MA retailers asking pre-ban prices on post ban mags, sometimes 2-3X more.

 

[calsdad]

This issue not only extends to glock mags, but to AR mags as well. Just today I was at a well respected shop, which had a bunch of AR mags. Since they were 30 rounders, I assumed they were pre-ban. However, they all looked brand new, in wrap, and the baseplate read a company name, that I think (am fairly confident here), did not even exist BEFORE the ban!!! However, what really pisses me off, is MA retailers asking pre-ban prices on post ban mags, sometimes 2-3X more.

That "shop" you were at is probably the same shop I was at that I bought the Glock from. I was also thinking of buying a bunch of those same 30 round AR mags in preparation for when I buy an AR - it's going to have to wait until after Christmas shopping is over though.

 

[calsdad]

If you figure it out, please give Glock Tech Supt - US a call and let them know? [Not kidding, I had an interesting chat with them and they admitted that Austria makes continual changes to mags and refuses to inform Glock-US what is what.]

It's clear as mud, but my suspicion is that they are most likely post-ban mags. At least two distributors are telling MA dealers that they are pre-ban, but indications (follower numbers, etc.) seem to indicate otherwise.

My best advice is to order pre-ban mags from folks in free states that actually know what they own because they bought them during the Fed Ban. Check places like AR15.com's EE, GlockTalk, etc. for these.

They probably are "post ban" since I can't see any evidence of wear on them, they look absolutely brand new to me. This however goes right in line with the previous responders to this thread who said that even Glock cannot identify which are pre - and which are post - ban. The whole thing is just freakin ridiculous if you ask me. Since I think having a bunch of mags is both a good idea in case of "emergency" and because loading mags at the range seems like a waste of time I am looking at investing in some more mags. I have seen a bunch of 10 rounders on ebay for decent prices, I will have to take a look on the sites you mentioned and see if I can find some alleged "pre-ban" high cap mags. Thanks.

 

[calsdad]

Ok - now I am really confused - I just pulled up a page on Glockmeister - which has a picture showing "LE", "pre-ban", and "10 round" mags, and the picture of the "pre ban" mag matches exactly the mags that I have.

Problem is that this picture directly contradicts the picture at the very beginning of this thread which shows the mags I have ( with the .40 designation being close to the top of the mag opening) - as being "post ban".

This is just freakin ridiculous - I remember reading a thread on this forum quite a while back where Jesse Cohen was looking for ideas as to things that could be done to enhance our gun rights, also, isn't GOAL working on revising the laws? It seems to me that this Glock mag thing is a perfect example of an unenforceable law and should be brought to somebody's attention.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

It seems to me that this Glock mag thing is a perfect example of an unenforceable law and should be brought to somebody's attention.

Be careful what you asked for.

Remember, some time ago, a less than ALP LTC bore the nomenclature "Reason For Issuance", which gave someone carrying outside the restriction at least a chance of beating a "violation of restriction" rap. GOAL was concerned about the ambiguity, pushed for a resolution, and got it. All LTCs now bear the designation "Restriction" rather than "Reason for issuance."