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Lets see if this gun owner gets treated like a MSP

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by appraiser, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. appraiser

    appraiser NES Member

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    http://www.eagletribune.com/punews/local_story_051225448.html


    LAWRENCE — The clerk of a Milton Street bodega opened fire on two robbers with a 9 mm handgun, missing them as they fled down the city sidewalk, police said.

    The robbers escaped with an undetermined amount of cash, but the clerk and store owner could face charges, police Chief John Romero said yesterday.

    Ruben Veras, 35, of Lawrence was in La Esperanza Market when the robbers entered about 8:30 p.m. Thursday.

    The market at 64 Milton St., is owned by his cousin Felix Veras, 36, of Haverhill.

    Ruben Veras said he grabbed the pistol from under the store counter, ran outside, and fired three rounds at the fleeing robbers, police said.

    The gun is owned by Felix Veras, whom police said is legally licensed to have possession of the weapon. But because the gun was kept unlocked under the counter where unauthorized persons could get at it, Felix Veras could face up to one year in jail and a $500 to $5,000 fine if convicted on charges of improper storage of a firearm.

    Ruben Veras could face up to 10 years in state prison and a $1,000 fine if convicted on charges of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon, one year in jail if convicted on charges of illegal possession of a firearm and 90 days in jail if convicted on charges of discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a building.

    The robbers, if they are caught and convicted, face up to five years in state prison.

    Romero said detectives will re-interview the men before any charges are filed.

    Felix Veras told a reporter yesterday his store is in a "tough neighborhood," but declined to comment further, saying he was not comfortable doing so until he spoke to his insurance company and the police investigation is concluded.

    Ruben Veras told police the men, one armed with a knife and one with a handgun, entered the store and demanded money. They both had their faces covered.

    The man with the knife came around the counter and grabbed the drawer and dropped it on the floor scattering cash and coins on the floor. Veras told police the man with the knife grabbed the cash from the floor and an additional $600 he had placed in the penny gum holder behind the cash register.

    He told police he was putting the money there when the men entered the store and may have seen him.

    Veras told police the two men ran out of the store and headed south on Milton Street toward Providence Street.

    He told police he grabbed the pistol and ran out the door, pointed the gun in the direction of the two men and fired two or three rounds.

    But Veras told police he did not intend to shoot the two men.

    However, Romero said, "If he didn't want to hit the men, why did he discharge the weapon?"

    "You discharge a gun to protect yourself or someone else," Romero said, noting that the men were running away.

    Romero said there was a woman inside the store at the time, and he did not know if there were many people around outside who could have been hit by a stray bullet.

    Police seized the gun and when Felix Veras arrived at the store, took his firearms license as well, pending the investigation.

    Witnesses described one of the robbers as in his late 20s, about 6 feet to 6 feet 2 inches tall, with a medium build and wearing a black rain jacket, blue jeans and a black knit ski mask, carrying a nickel-plated large frame revolver.

    The second suspect was described as in his mid-20s, about 5 feet 4 inches tall, with a slim to average build, wearing a black jacket, blue jeans and a black ski mask, and carrying a small knife.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009

  2. Lucas McCain

    Lucas McCain

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    Fry these clowns, You cant just let lead fly down the sidewalk. Improperly stored firearm, access by an unauthorized person and 3 shots fired god knows where. Glad I wasn't walking down the sidewalk when this happened. Lucky nobody was wounded or killed.
     
  3. Blitz1

    Blitz1 NES Member

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    WTF The criminals here get a lesser sentence?

    Granted Veras's actions were pretty stupid but still.
     
  4. appraiser

    appraiser NES Member

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    But what about Heller? That should take the gun owner right out of the case because if he gets treated like a Mass State Trooper he has no duty to lock the gun up!

    The guy who chased the alleged robbers out of the store... he is screwed, if he had stayed in the store he would have been fine IMHO
     
  5. clinotus

    clinotus

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    The MSP guy had an entirely different set of circumstances and hired excellent representation..this pair is likely screwed.
     
  6. bggsp

    bggsp

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    yeah, screwed. Good luck to them. Dumb decision.
     
  7. vellnueve

    vellnueve

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    The guy who ran out shooting is totally screwed. Shooting at a fleeing criminal isn't going to go over well in court.

    Which is a shame.
     
  8. Lucas McCain

    Lucas McCain

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    +1 there, it is a shame, but.......
     
  9. Og Killah

    Og Killah

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    Remember the liquor store owner in Worcester who shot an armed robber dead? I don't think he got charged. I don't think these guys were the brightest and shooting at a fleeing robber in public isn't good. Of course tunnel vision and emotion take over at that point I think.
     
  10. vellnueve

    vellnueve

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    He didn't get charged because he shot the guy in the process of robbing him, with a weapon pointed at him. If he had given the robber the money, the robber had left and he chased him out the door and shot him, the outcome would have been very different for the shooter.
     
  11. Half Cocked

    Half Cocked

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    Anyone with half a brain can see that they are two completely different sets of circumstances.
     
  12. Palladin

    Palladin NES Member

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    yup.....but this IS Massachusetts [sad]
     
  13. Martlet

    Martlet

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    I guess I don't have half a brain. Could you explain how they are different?
     
  14. MassMark

    MassMark

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    I suppose since I was not there, I can't explain why this guy let lead fly after the fact, instead of relying on training and gun placement to shoot these scumbags as soon as they presented a threat....When I worked behind a register, I rehearsed this scenario in my mind many times, but that's just it - I have no way of knowing for sure how I would have reacted. Letting these shitheads out of the store was a bad move...He's pooched.
     
  15. pbearperry

    pbearperry

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    I just love the way we compare apples to watermelons here.Get a life Pal.
     
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  16. SteelShooter

    SteelShooter NES Member

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    I think there should be a fine or something for the shop owners, and anything that resulted from his stupidity of shooting down the street should be put on the BG's. The BG's initiated it, the state made the owner a criminal.
     
  17. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Moderator NES Member

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    for the sake of discussion, split this into two issues, the storage and the shooting.

    Improper storage? WTF is he supposed to do, have it locked in a safe and ask the BG to wait while he goes and gets it? This is Heller all over again.

    The shooting...bad juju.
     
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  18. TomH

    TomH

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    Exactly! Assuming the shooting was as described... fairly wreckless. The storeage shouldn't be an issue except for the unconstitutional state laws.
     
  19. Erebus

    Erebus

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    +1

    Couldn't have said it better myself. Although this being MA they will make a criminal out of the one that did nothing wrong. I'm glad I'm not either one of these guys.

    Only suggestion I would make to gun toting Stop 'N Rob clerks would be to actually tote it. Don't leave it where someone can grab it when you aren't looking. Especially under the counter where EVERYONE knows that Stop 'N Rob clerks keep their pistols.
     
  20. fbirdquik6

    fbirdquik6

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    bad call he screwed himself
     
  21. sdavid

    sdavid

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    Here is a different take on this scenario: what if someone who was legally carrying heard the first shot go off drew and shot to stop what they perceived to be some maniac shooting people in a public space? What would the outcome be here?
     
  22. appraiser

    appraiser NES Member

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    If you have ever read Massad Ayoobs book " In The Gravest Extreme" he describes such a situation, but the person you shot playing hero turned out to be a good guy chasing a bad guy.

    If you have not read the book, I strongly suggest finding and buying it.

    I read it when I got my CCW back some 25 years ago, and it really opened up my eyes to playing cowboy and ending up in deep deep fecal matter
     
  23. clinotus

    clinotus

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    Know your target. I think the second shooter would be screwed as he did not assess the situation and went in guns a blazin'.
     
  24. Lucas McCain

    Lucas McCain

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    I will tell you what he was supposed to do. He should have had an LTC and been carrying CCW. It is ILLEGAL to leave a loaded (or unloaded) gun unlocked and out of your control.
     
  25. Half Cocked

    Half Cocked

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    The most obvious is that Heller deals with storage in your residence which is what the circumstances with the Trooper also involved.

    The OP deals with a retail establishment.

    No comparison! Apples to oranges.
     
  26. weekendracer

    weekendracer

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    This happened in New Orleans back in '00. Guy got carjacked, shoots at carjacker as he runs away. Off duty cop sees guy shooting at guy running away. Off duty cop, unfortunately, shoots the victim.

    Simple fact, when the threat is no longer there, you do not have any right to press the offense. No different if you are LE or civilian.
     
  27. Rob Boudrie

    Rob Boudrie NES Member

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    No but there is, in general, a HUGE difference in expected consequences.
     
  28. George D

    George D NES Member

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    Seriously, that is very irresponsible to leave a loaded unattended handgun sitting around, even more dangerous to give access to an untrained idiot like the clerk. No different than a straw buyer. If the clerk feels the need to carry, he should get his own LTC and his own handgun.
    Wildly firing down a sidewalk is assanine.
     
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  29. Reptile

    Reptile NES Member

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    Shooting Fleeing Felons- use of deadly force on a fleeing felon:

    Six point checklist for when you are justified in Shooting a fleeing felon. All 6 must be present, but even then there is no guarantee you wont be charged.

    1. Has to involve a heinous felony against a person, ex. murder, attempted murder, arson of occupied buildings, stranger kidnapping, violent sexual assault.
    2. Felon must be known to you as the attacker, beyond a reasonable doubt that person is the attacker.
    3. You should be identified or readily identifiable as the good guy.
    4. The fleeing felon's escape is open ended, where capture is not immediate or immanent.
    5. All other means of capture are failed or are no longer possible.
    6. The felon's continued freedom presents a clear and present danger to innocent human life.
    There is no duty to shoot a fleeing felon. You will not get into trouble if you do not shoot.


    1. No- he was only robbed.
    2. No- see 1. They are robbers and not committing a heinous felony.
    3. No- if you shoot people running away down the street and a cop sees it you will look like the aggressor.
    4. Yes
    5. Yes
    6. No- there is no sure way to know that they will commit a heinous felony as a result of their escape.


    All six must be yes. He had no right to fire. This guy is lucky none of them were killed because he would end up in jail for murder.

    This store owner makes us look bad.

    Anybody who would have shot at these robbers while they were escaping should read up on the use of deadly force. Otherwise, you are potentially putting you own freedom in danger.

    Massad Ayoob's book "In the Gravest Extreme" is a great place to start.
     
  30. FunYun

    FunYun

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    The store owner is committing a crime by shooting at the fleeing persons.

    Would I convicted a second shooter? Not after hearing about how the first guy was firing away for the hell of it.

    I don't have any problem leaving a firearm available behind the counter. As long as you can trust your employees and they know what they are doing and the gun is never left truly unattended.
    It's not the same as leaving it available in a home with kids running around.
     

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