law enforcment in schools.

[Doctordrew]

I have an officer in my class...while attending classes he is obviouslly "off duty" (and not in complete uniform) but can he legally carry in class?

(I would like the answer to be yes, but here in mass "hes not on duty so he might be a criminal off duty!" haha)

Thanks,

 

[M1911]

I believe so. IANAL and I may be missing something important in the law.

The section concerning guns in schools in MGL Ch269 S10, which reads, in part:

(j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Note that the exception highlighted above does not say anything about being on duty or off duty, but instead is just concerned with whether or not the person is a law enforcement officer.

full text is here: http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/269-10.htm

 

[Coyote33]

I'm surprised this isn't mentioned in 269-11 as described in this post.

 

[highlander]

As a police officer is he really "off duty"? In others words if he were in civilian clothes and he saw a crime being committed he could arrest said person as long as he announced he was the police. I remember an episode of "Dragnet" where Friday arrested a kid on campus for possession of marijuana he was there taking classes "off duty" as it were. Granted "Dragnet" was a tv show but to my understanding it was more realistic than the cop shows of the day. Damn I miss Joe.

 

[MichaelJ]

Most departments require/strongly advise their officers to carry "off-duty" because they are still trained/responsible for public safety. It would be hard for the cop to show up at his next shift and explain why he was only a witness to a crime that should have been stopped but he was "off the clock".

 

[Doctordrew]

yeah, I actually hope he is armed (if I cant have a firearm in my class im glad he can!)
i totally agree with the "once on duty always on duty" principle of law enforcment and everyting i was just wwondering if it was "legal" for him to be carrying or not.

so it looks like the answer is yes.

cool, thanks guys.

 

[KMM696]

The other possible complication is whether the officer carrying legally will be violating school policy by doing so. As an example, from the Westfield State student handbook, student conduct regulations:

Possession or use of firearms, explosives, fireworks, other similar materials, weapons, and/or potentially dangerous or lethal devices. Such other materials, weapons, and/or potentially dangerous or lethal devices shall include, but are not limited to, knives (kitchen utensils or jackknives used for lawful purposes are excluded), swords, numchuks, brass knuckles, Chinese stars, and guns of any nature including paintball guns, taser guns, pellet guns and any gun having the capacity to shoot any kind of projectile.

So, the officer could carry legally as far as the state is concerned, stop a crime observed while attending classes, and get tossed from the college for doing their job. It's up to the school on how far they want to go, but the possibility is there.

I found it interesting that Westfield State doesn't list a policy exemption for law enforcement, considering how hard they push their Criminal Justice program.

 

[DickWanner]

As a police officer is he really "off duty"? In others words if he were in civilian clothes and he saw a crime being committed he could arrest said person as long as he announced he was the police. I remember an episode of "Dragnet" where Friday arrested a kid on campus for possession of marijuana he was there taking classes "off duty" as it were. Granted "Dragnet" was a tv show but to my understanding it was more realistic than the cop shows of the day. Damn I miss Joe.

Off-duty police officers do not have the same arrest powers as on-duty officers. Essentially they are left to citizen's arrest, but with just a little more leeway in court that a 'civillian' would. Unless the situation is dire or life threatening, if someone needs to be arrested then they call someone who is on duty.

 

[NFD9]

Off-duty police officers do not have the same arrest powers as on-duty officers. Essentially they are left to citizen's arrest, but with just a little more leeway in court that a 'civillian' would. Unless the situation is dire or life threatening, if someone needs to be arrested then they call someone who is on duty.

IIRC, the line is drawn between being a sworn-in LEO (in the community the arrest is being made) or not. If the LEO is a sworn-in LEO of that community, than off-duty, on-duty doesn't matter. If the LEO is not sworn-in in that community than his powers of arrest are limited to a felony in progress, (I believe this pertains to citizens arrest),pursuit, or if a warrant has been issued for a known persons arrest. This is why communities usually swear-in surrounding towns LEO to be special PO, or have in place a mutual aid agreement.

I'm sure a LEO can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[DickWanner]

IIRC, the line is drawn between being a sworn-in LEO (in the community the arrest is being made) or not. If the LEO is a sworn-in LEO of that community, than off-duty, on-duty doesn't matter. If the LEO is not sworn-in in that community than his powers of arrest are limited to a felony in progress, (I believe this pertains to citizens arrest),pursuit, or if a warrant has been issued for a known persons arrest. This is why communities usually swear-in surrounding towns LEO to be special PO, or have in place a mutual aid agreement.

I'm sure a LEO can correct me if I'm wrong.

That makes sense, I'm just going off of what I've learned from other sources and my company supervisor who does Auxillary work for Leominster.

 

[matt1956]

some towns/state/county are considered "on Duty" all the time.

 

[RKG]

Off-duty police officers do not have the same arrest powers as on-duty officers. Essentially they are left to citizen's arrest, but with just a little more leeway in court that a 'civillian' would. Unless the situation is dire or life threatening, if someone needs to be arrested then they call someone who is on duty.

Not correct.

 

[RKG]

IIRC, the line is drawn between being a sworn-in LEO (in the community the arrest is being made) or not. If the LEO is a sworn-in LEO of that community, than off-duty, on-duty doesn't matter. If the LEO is not sworn-in in that community than his powers of arrest are limited to a felony in progress, (I believe this pertains to citizens arrest),pursuit, or if a warrant has been issued for a known persons arrest. This is why communities usually swear-in surrounding towns LEO to be special PO, or have in place a mutual aid agreement.

I'm sure a LEO can correct me if I'm wrong.

This is essentially correct statement. Add that a police officer can also have police powers in a state with which his jurisdiction has a mutual aid agreement, and he has police powers in fresh pursuit for an arrestable offense in his jurisdiction even of the pursuit extends to another jurisdiction.

 

[Chris]

There is a whole section in Ron Glidden's book addressing this. Basically he recommends that the off-duty officer make sure the firearm remains hidden.

I think that should settle the issue.

 

[M1911]

There is a whole section in Ron Glidden's book addressing this.

<thread_hijack>Can someone point me to where I can purchase a current edition of Ron's book? Mine is rather old...

I've tried searching here and with google, but I guess my google-fu is too weak.</thread_hijack>

 

[JonJ]

Municipal Police Institute, Inc sells them now.

 

[DickWanner]

This is essentially correct statement. Add that a police officer can also have police powers in a state with which his jurisdiction has a mutual aid agreement, and he has police powers in fresh pursuit for an arrestable offense in his jurisdiction even of the pursuit extends to another jurisdiction.

Yes, but isn't this limited to criminal offense and not civil violations?

 

[vellnueve]

I didn't think MA police officers have powers over civil matters anyway. Or is that just serving papers etc?

 

[DickWanner]

I didn't think MA police officers have powers over civil matters anyway. Or is that just serving papers etc?

Isn't speeding a civil infraction?

 

[RKG]

Yes, but isn't this limited to criminal offense and not civil violations?

Mutual aid isn't so limited. I think, almost by definition, if we're talking about a pursuit we're talking about an arrestable offense, and I don't think you can arrest for any civil infraction, so the issue isn't presented there.

 

[DickWanner]

Mutual aid isn't so limited. I think, almost by definition, if we're talking about a pursuit we're talking about an arrestable offense, and I don't think you can arrest for any civil infraction, so the issue isn't presented there.

I mean where are the limits? Say I'm driving 80 in a 40 and an off-duty officer considers me to be commiting 'Wreckless Endangerment', he can legally chase me down and when I pull into a gas station arrest me if I'm in his jurisdiction? For one I probably would put up a fight if a off-duty civillian clothed individual waving a badge around tried to arrest me, and secondly I'd rather not think that an off-duty officers could have that kind of discretional arrest powers. I mean I can see where it is somewhat neccessary as we can't meet the LE demands for the amount of population so having them constantly 'on-duty' would be helpful, but it seems a little excessive to me. I think the police have way too much power in our society and this is coming from someone who's studying a minor in CJ.

 

[RKG]

I mean where are the limits? Say I'm driving 80 in a 40 and an off-duty officer considers me to be commiting 'Wreckless Endangerment', he can legally chase me down and when I pull into a gas station arrest me if I'm in his jurisdiction? For one I probably would put up a fight if a off-duty civillian clothed individual waving a badge around tried to arrest me, and secondly I'd rather not think that an off-duty officers could have that kind of discretional arrest powers. I mean I can see where it is somewhat neccessary as we can't meet the LE demands for the amount of population so having them constantly 'on-duty' would be helpful, but it seems a little excessive to me. I think the police have way too much power in our society and this is coming from someone who's studying a minor in CJ.

I don't want to venture too far into the details of the "civil infraction" procedures surrounding speeding tickets. However, I believe -- stress: I'm not certain -- that a Police Officer has the option of writing a criminal violation summons for speeding if he deems circumstances warrant.

Primarily, however, you have to disabuse yourself of the notion, which is false, that "on duty" versus "off duty" has anything to do with the powers of a duly appointed regular police officer. "On duty" and "off duty" are payroll issues.

 

[NFD9]

I mean where are the limits? Say I'm driving 80 in a 40 and an off-duty officer considers me to be commiting 'Wreckless Endangerment', he can legally chase me down and when I pull into a gas station arrest me if I'm in his jurisdiction? For one I probably would put up a fight if a off-duty civillian clothed individual waving a badge around tried to arrest me, and secondly I'd rather not think that an off-duty officers could have that kind of discretional arrest powers. I mean I can see where it is somewhat neccessary as we can't meet the LE demands for the amount of population so having them constantly 'on-duty' would be helpful, but it seems a little excessive to me. I think the police have way too much power in our society and this is coming from someone who's studying a minor in CJ.

What would be more likely, is you receiving a citation in the mail from the off-duty LEO.
IIRC what I was taught,
LEO's don't have to arrest, it's an option, they can also issue a complaint and summons you to court. Except for (forgetting the chapter #) domestic abuse, in which they are required to arrest-period.
I believe that on-duty or off-duty is a minor issue with your example.
The major issue is whether the LEO is acting so in a community that he or she has been sworn to protect.
Open for correction
Gary

 

[the_doctor]

I didn't think MA police officers have powers over civil matters anyway. Or is that just serving papers etc?

MA PO do not. Sherriffs and Constables derive powers from common law and such. They serve papers. PO have been created by statute with specific powers including the now CIVIL process of ticket writing.

Bill

 

[jar]

For one I probably would put up a fight if a off-duty civillian clothed individual waving a badge around tried to arrest me, and secondly I'd rather not think that an off-duty officers could have that kind of discretional arrest powers.

I think most departments have a policy against non-uniformed officers pulling people over for just this reason.

 

[DickWanner]

I think most departments have a policy against non-uniformed officers pulling people over for just this reason.

Yea, I was thinking specific dept policy would come into play more than what is allowed by law. I'm also think how a lawyer might be able to get a criminal off the hook in such cases.

I hope no one considers me to be anti-LE or anything. I guess growing up in Fitchburg has always made me question the actions of LEOs and what they are actually allowed to do by law and what they sometimes get away with.