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IDPA - Rules and Regulations

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I am posting this thread, if you woulnt mind, as a forum in regards to some questions about the new IDPA rules and regulations. IDPA proficient, please help me out here [you always do :D ].
Those who have questions please post here too, I may ask the same question. Thanks.

First: Stock Service Pistol Division

In the rulebook, under this division, it does not clearly state [or I just couldnt understand] whether I can participate with my pistol with high cap magazine. The US version of this pistol are sold with 10 rnd mags only, high caps are for law enforcement but here in Manila, Steyrs are sold with high cap mags. Can somebody help me clear that up for me as the rulebook state "G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber....".

This question also applies to Enhanced Service Pistol Division. As with CDP, it is stated that high caps can be used.

Thanks sirs.
 
You can use them, you can only load them to the capacity of the class.

New rule in 2005 that all your mags must be the same capacity. I know several people who use an 11 round mag for thier first load so they they don't have to top off. At the local club level this is not likely to be an issue, but you might get called on it at larger matches. No idea why this one is in place as you can easily check the shot count if there is a question on overloaded mags.

Anyway, that's the poop on standard capacity mags.
 
Trigger, internal enhancement?

Thanks.... just like in basketball... there is a follow up shot! Now the "Trigger Pull" sir. :D

I did not see or have read that there was any rule pertaining to pull weight but permitted modifications only states "Internal action work may be used to enhance trigger pull as long as safety is maintained (no external modifications allowed)" also under ESP "Hammer and other trigger action parts to enhance trigger pull [?] As I am not pistol proficient I dont understand if this parts, that are allowed to be changed, could lower down the weight of the trigger pull. Could this mean only to make the trigger more crispier to pull or could this include lowering down the weight of the pull?

And, is the rule on the trigger enhancement under ESP dont apply to SSP's "no external modifications allowed"?

I am planning now to get a 1911 .45ACP and have the trigger be worked on, lowering it to say 3 or 3.5 lbs. But worried that this may qualify with ESP but not with SSP. I want my pistol ESP, SSP and CDP compliant.


[wink]
 
First, a .45 1911 can NEVER be SSP compliant because it does not have "Doubler Action, Double Action Only, or Safe Action".

A Para LDA which looks like a 1911 would be an exception and allowed in SSP, but you would face the same issues in this class as I'm about to mention in the ESP. A SIG 220 or a Glock in .45 could be used to shoot in all three classes, but those are not a 1911.

In ESP, you can't fit a 10 round magazine into a standard 1911 and still fit in the box (8 3/4 x 6 x 1 5/8) unless the pistol is one of the very short barrel pieces, and then you will be at a disadvantage to those with longer barrel 1911's in CDP. In ESP, you would be shooting against 9mm and .38 super with your .45 and while you might be able to load down, you'll have to respring your gun to work at the lower pressures. The Wilson KZ pistols will fit the box and give you a 10 round magazine, or any of the Para double stack pistols would work. There are other wide body 1911 styles that might fit too.

Basically, selecting a gun just for the ability to shoot all three classes is probably not the best of ideas as the whole idea of the classes is to allow similar equipment to compete against similar equipment. In that light, a gun that complies with all three is going to have something that handicaps it in all three. Since you seem to want to be as competitive as you can, you will find that those handicaps will cause you problems.

Besides, in most matches you can only sign up for ONE class.

As for modifications, basically anything to the action (so long as you do not compromise safety) you can do it. Making light triggers is allowed. Doing action work to make the gun more reliable is allowed. You can also do short triggers and other 'fit/comfort' mods so long as nothing is done for competitive edge or changes the 'look' of the gun.

The idea of IDPA is to use practical guns. Shooter skill over equipment. Doing action work to make the gun more reliable and a better shooter is considered practical. Making modifications that reduce recoil or other wise give an 'edge' in time are not considered practical. There is a long list of modifications that are allowed and not allowed listed in the rule book. Use that as a guide.

I would not worry so much about having all kinds of fancy modifications made right now. First, unless you already own and regularly shoot the gun you wish to use, none of the modifications will help you as you need to get the fundamentals down first. Until you can qualify as Sharpshooter or better, no gun work (except for comfort mods like grips or sights) will really make that big a difference so long as the gun is functioning reliably.

Trust me, you'll have plenty of things to worry about with learning to draw from a holster, using cover, shooting while moving, etc to ever worry if you have a 3 or 7 lb trigger. It just doesn't matter that much.

Hope that helps.
 
Muchos gracias, Chris!

Call me st..d but where is the 1911 classified under? I thought an unmodified1911, coming from the manufacturer, can be considered as Stock or production and, is a semi-automatic, is 1911 not considered SA [Single Action]? What is Safe Action, arent there only two categories for semi-automatic pistols? This maybe a very basic question but believe me I am confused or no idea at all! Some people I know say that a 1911 is a double action but I guess a double action is when the striker or hammer is cocked everytime the trigger is pulled without the help of the slide.

BTW, I'll make note of your points re: any pistol that may qualify to all the divisions may not be advantageous at all, as it could only be good at one or two but not under all divisions. Will get a 1911 perhaps only for one division,or two maybe. Will not be participating to all the divisions but what I was intending to do is maybe just get myself one more pistol that could qualify to more than one division.

Got a Steyr for the Stock Service Pistol division but incase that I would not be proficient with it at least I have an option.... [this is my dilemma].

Yeah, I tried drawing a gun from the holster this morning at the range for practice.... it was a pain in the neck for those fellas who were watching me, terribly difficult... thought of changing sports! [lol]

Thanks Chris!
 
Stock Service Pistol is just a name. Doesn't mean anything. The firearms are based on their caliber and action. SSP does not allow any Single Action pistols which the classic 1911 design has.

"Safe Action" is the action used in the Glock pistols.

Practice your draws UNLOADED at home. USe dummy rounds to weight the mag properly. Be very sure you have the proper form as practice of the wrong manuver is no better than no practice. Also, practice getting reholstered one handed

I HIGHLY suggest getting some instruction from someone who knows what they are doing as improper holster use can be extremely dangerous. I can't tell you the number of people who would never think of poiting their gun in an unsafe direction do just then when using a holster.

As reference, I provide here an excerpt from my course book for "IDPA Handgunner" on holster use:

12 Holster Use
Many have never used a holster as most clubs do not allow drawing from the holster for safety reasons. You can practice with an unloaded firearm at home, or meet with your club authorities and discuss the issue with them. Learning to draw at a match is not a good idea. Part of this range exercise will be in drilling the draw, but regular practice is required to maintain the skills.

The purpose of this section is to outline the mechanics of a good draw and things to avoid. Best of all, you can practice the draw with an unloaded gun (or loaded with dummy ammunition for proper weight) in your home safely.
12.1 The Draw
Your reach down to the gun should be smooth and accurate. You don’t need to smash down onto the gun, but you also don’t want to waste effort getting there.

On reaching the gun, operate any retention device. Usually this is done easily with a press of the thumb into the back of the holster's strap, but learn how your holster works and practice.

The important concern is to get a good grip while the gun is still in the holster. You do not want to fumble with the gun. Before you apply any upward movement, set your hand high on the grip and securely in the notch created by the thumb and forefinger.

Now, you don’t want to ‘GRAB’ the gun with your whole hand, but rather use the middle and ring fingers to hold onto the gun. This action keeps the index finger relaxed and less likely to invade the trigger guard by accident. Your pinky can ‘go along for the ride’ but you don’t want too much pressure there or the gun will start to twist in your hand as it clears the holster. Likewise, you do not want to exert too much pressure with the thumb as this too will rotate the pistol in your hand.

The draw should push your elbow straight back, not off to the side. By going straight back, you keep the muzzle away from your body and prepare for the next motion.

The draw should be practiced slowly until your hand falls naturally to the gun with a good grip. Many people will find that they need to adjust or even replace a holster that isn’t providing an easy grip. Just about every shooter has a large collection of holsters that don’t quite work, or for various types of dress. Ask a shooter who uses a similar firearm to yours to try holsters they might have.
12.2 Presentation
Once the pistol is clear of the holster, you want to start pivoting your arm to bring the muzzle downrange.

With the elbow back, you can rotate at the shoulder and the gun both points down range as well as begins its climb to your eye.

If your gun has a thumb safety, this is the time to ‘snick’ it off. You want the safety off as soon as the gun is pointed in a safe direction in case you need to use it before reaching your full shooting stance. While in IDPA, this is unlikely to happen, it’s a good habit to get used to so you don’t find a ‘safe’ gun in a close encounter on the street.

At this same time, your support hand should be about in front of your belly a little below the pistol and cupped to catch your other hand as it appears.

You want to meet your hands no more than a foot in front of the body so that the support hand fingers cup the entire front of the shooting hand.

From here, you press out and up making your arms straight and bringing the sight up to your eye. Do not drop your body to the gun. Focus on the target and then bring the sights into that alignment.

Watch those thumbs. Both thumbs should be on one side of the gun and resting so that they are not going to operate any control by accident, and do not ride on the slide which might cause a misfeed. Due to the large number of hand and gun sizes, there isn’t a real hard and fast rule as to what is the best location.

As your arms reach full extension, you should feel your hands locking in on the gun. The support hand will be pulling back a little. You will need to practice this so that you get a good solid grip, but don’t turn the gun in your hands as they gain tension.

For most shooters, having both arms out straight is usually the best position. There are others, but require practice to master as they use dynamic forces to maintain the alignment.

The gun should naturally come up level. If not, more practice, or a gun with a different angle grip, or perhaps even different grips can help make that initial alignment almost perfect. It is usually better if the gun comes up slightly high than slightly low so that you can quickly see the front sight.

Defensive pistol sights should be fairly open in nature, rugged, and easy to see. All kinds of options exist that you can explore. Just remember it has to be some kind of notch in the back and some kind of post in the front. I do not recommend the highly adjustable target sights as they are usually too precise to quickly get a good sight picture. Combat or fixed sights are usually much quicker and at the ranges we shoot, just as accurate.

Shift the focus onto the front sight so that it covers the place you were just looking at on the target and place your finger on the trigger. Dry fire into a mirror using your own chest as a target is good practice. When the gun goes click, remember how the sights were aligned and where the bullet might have gone. On the range, replace your chest with the IDPA target and use real ammunition.
12.3 Reholster
The key to reholstering is not to point the gun at yourself in the process. Far too often I see shooters cant the pistol so that the barrel is pointed at their leg in an attempt to angle it into the holster.

If the holster will not stay open enough to fit the gun into without prying it open, or using your hand, it isn’t a good holster for IDPA. You should be able to holster with just one hand.

One method that is fairly easy and safe is to keep the pistol pointed down range and move it down over the holster. Then, drag the underside of the barrel or dustcover over the holster opening. When the muzzle comes into the holster pocket, a simple rotation so that the muzzle now points to the ground and a push will seat it in the holster.

With practice you should be able to reholster safely with one hand and not have to look at the holster.
 
...now regarding the CDP.

In the rule book, if I could remember it correctly, that the qualifying caliber is a 45 ACP, does this mean that no other caliber can qualify under this division? The reason I was asking this is that I overheard that a .40 can qualify under this division. Thanks. [wink]
 
CDP was and is the playground of the 8 round mag classic 1911 guys. .45 ACP and max 8 rounds in the mag.

Something about those 1911 guys not wanting to play nice with everyone else in the sandbox. (^_^)

Seriously, the 1911 is such a common gun that making it's own division (especially since the IDPA founder Bill Wilson makes and sells custom 1911's) made a lot of sense to the founders.
 
okay thanks..

Is the 1911 commander type [what I mean is the short barreled one] maybe considered standard? or would this short barreled type qualify under this division. Thanks.
 
hiram_Abiff said:
okay thanks..

Is the 1911 commander type [what I mean is the short barreled one] maybe considered standard? or would this short barreled type qualify under this division. Thanks.


The 1911 style I see most frequently in IDPA is the government size, which is equipped with a five inch barrel.

Still, many people, including my close friend, Jon Green, are extremely competitive with a commander size 1911. This is a four-inch barreled gun.

Shoot what you have, so long as it fits within the rules. The most important thing is your 1911 should be reliable. It is no fun trying to compete with a gun that is a jam-o-matic.
 
Scoring

Now with scoring...

It says tht that the value for scoring is 5, 4 and 2 points respectively. Now being Vickers... the 0 being the Alpha is actually the 5, -1 as 4 and -3 as 2, is this correct?
 
CDP was and is the playground of the 8 round mag classic 1911 guys.---
The 1911 is the most common firearm used in CDP but I don't think that the Division is limited to only 1911s.

...Jon Green, are(is) extremely competitive with a commander size 1911.

Yeah, Jon shot the low light stage of the Mass State IDPA Championships very smoothly.


Respectfully,

jkelly
 
Vickers? Anyone?

Say in ten [10] seconds I was able to shoot three [3] rounds: one alpha, and two just outside the Alpha area. What should be the score? Thanks.
 
H A,

In USPSA if you had three shots on target in 10 seconds with the following results. "...one alpha, and two just outside the Alpha area."

A,C,C in the body area

Shooting Major:
(5+3+3)/10.0=1.10 Hit Factor

Shooting Minor:
(5+2+2)/10.0=0.90 HF



A,B,B in the head area:

Shooting Major:
(5+4+4)/10.0=1.30 Hit Factor

Shooting Minor:
(5+3+3)/10.0=1.10 HF


Points per Major and Minor "Power Factor"

-----Major PF----Minor PF
A------5 ------------5
B------4-------------3
C------3-------------2
D------2-------------1

Hope this helps.


Respectfully,

jkelly
 
hiram_Abiff said:
Thanks for the info! How about with IDPA, what's going to be the score? [cry]

In IDPA that would score 11.0:

IDPA scoring starts with the raw time and adds time based on points down, penalties, procedural errors, and so on. Lower scores are better, just like golf.

Start with the raw time, in this case ten seconds. Two shots are just outside the center area so they are scored as down one point (from a maximum possible of five). Multiply points down by 0.5 to get their time equivalent (2 * 0.5 = 1) and add it to the raw time.

If all three shots had been in the center zone, or down zero, then your score would be the raw time. If a shot had missed entirely then you'd be down five points, adding 2.5 seconds to your time. It really pays to slow down enough to get good hits.
 
DR said:
hiram_Abiff said:
Thanks for the info! How about with IDPA, what's going to be the score? [cry]

In IDPA that would score 11.0:

IDPA scoring starts with the raw time and adds time based on points down, penalties, procedural errors, and so on. Lower scores are better, just like golf.

Start with the raw time, in this case ten seconds. Two shots are just outside the center area so they are scored as down one point (from a maximum possible of five). Multiply points down by 0.5 to get their time equivalent (2 * 0.5 = 1) and add it to the raw time.

If all three shots had been in the center zone, or down zero, then your score would be the raw time. If a shot had missed entirely then you'd be down five points, adding 2.5 seconds to your time. It really pays to slow down enough to get good hits.

Was the 2 here taken or the difference of the 5 points [Alpha0] minus 4 [as the points just outside the Alpha], since there were two hits outside the 5 or Alpha? I mean two hits outside Alpha that is [4*2=8], which will be subracted to the miss on the Alpha which could have been 10 [5*2], is this correct? Your 2 on the (2*0.5 = 1) was from 10 - 8 = 2?

If I got here correctly... should it take a shooter 15 seconds to finish with one [1] hit on the alpha [5] and then two hits just outside the Alpha [4*2] and the fourth shot being outside the 4 points area, which is 2, then the computation would be as follows:

15 seconds being the raw time
0 for the one [1] Alpha shot [this being the first shot]
(10 - [4*2]) *0.5 seconds = 1 second [this being the two hits just outside the Alpha
5 - 2= 3*0.5 seconds = 1.5 seconds [this being the shot being on the C area]
= 17.5 seconds, is this correct?

Need your patience here. Thanks.
should the hits that was made outside Alpha be deducted from the Alpha points which is 5?

Sincerely,
 
Re: Scoring

hiram_Abiff said:
Now with scoring...

It says tht that the value for scoring is 5, 4 and 2 points respectively. Now being Vickers... the 0 being the Alpha is actually the 5, -1 as 4 and -3 as 2, is this correct?


The idea is that bad shots result in points down, adding 1/2 second per point to the competitor's stage time. IDPA targets contain markings showing the points down for each portion of the targets.

The final score for the stage is a calculation of the raw time, time added for points down, and for other penalties such as procedurals, failures to do right, etc.

Copies of the score sheets are available on www.idpa.com
 
That's one of my problems here... I could not go to the IDPA website with the computers that I am using! [oops] [wink] So with the example that I just made, was my computation correct as per my understanding?
 
hiram_Abiff said:
Was the 2 here taken or the difference of the 5 points [Alpha0] minus 4 [as the points just outside the Alpha], since there were two hits outside the 5 or Alpha? I mean two hits outside Alpha that is [4*2=8], which will be subracted to the miss on the Alpha which could have been 10 [5*2], is this correct? Your 2 on the (2*0.5 = 1) was from 10 - 8 = 2?

If I got here correctly... should it take a shooter 15 seconds to finish with one [1] hit on the alpha [5] and then two hits just outside the Alpha [4*2] and the fourth shot being outside the 4 points area, which is 2, then the computation would be as follows:

15 seconds being the raw time
0 for the one [1] Alpha shot [this being the first shot]
(10 - [4*2]) *0.5 seconds = 1 second [this being the two hits just outside the Alpha
5 - 2= 3*0.5 seconds = 1.5 seconds [this being the shot being on the C area]
= 17.5 seconds, is this correct?

Need your patience here. Thanks.
should the hits that was made outside Alpha be deducted from the Alpha points which is 5?

Sincerely,

That's it exactly. It's easier to calculate if you think of it in terms of points down from the maximum (down zero, down one, etc) rather than the actual value (five for a center hit, four, etc.) Then you just need to remember that a miss is down five and you can read the score right off the target. Your example becomes 0 + 1 + 1 + 3 = 5 rather than (5-5) + (5-4) + (5-4) + (5-2) = 5. Five points down times 0.5 is 2.5 seconds added to your raw time of 15.

An additional wrinkle is that Vickers scoring only counts the best necessary hits. So if a target needs two shots and you shoot it three times, score the best two hits.
 
Is is true that 9mm pistols, due to the low power, can not compete in National or International IDPA competitions, unless it would be used up with higher-graded loads? I read this in one article on the website but just couldnt pull it out for now.

My concern is I am just basically using a 124 grain FMJ. I dont understand what should be higher than that when it comes to National IDPA competitions.... thanks.

Hope that information isnt correct!
 
Lies! I cannot imagine why anyone would say that.

C-X

hiram_Abiff said:
Is is true that 9mm pistols, due to the low power, can not compete in National or International IDPA competitions, unless it would be used up with higher-graded loads? I read this in one article on the website but just couldnt pull it out for now.

My concern is I am just basically using a 124 grain FMJ. I dont understand what should be higher than that when it comes to National IDPA competitions.... thanks.
 
hiram_Abiff said:
Is is true that 9mm pistols, due to the low power, can not compete in National or International IDPA competitions, unless it would be used up with higher-graded loads? I read this in one article on the website but just couldnt pull it out for now.

My concern is I am just basically using a 124 grain FMJ. I dont understand what should be higher than that when it comes to National IDPA competitions.... thanks.

It's not true. 9mm autoloaders compete in either SSP or ESP. Both divisions have a power floor of 125,000. So bullet weight in grains times muzzle velocity in feet/second has to exceed 125,000. Plain old WWB comes in at just over 135,000. Unless you're using unusually low power rounds you should easily meet the minimum.

If you were using a moonclipped 9mm revolver you may run into problems: ESR has a higher power floor of 165,000.
 
that's what I've thought too but take a look at this... I may just be so sleepy in comprehending this... you can read this and check it out. Folks I agree with you but this type of articles could really trigger some nerves particularly to newbies like me. Thanks for being here and for the support.

This is the link: http://savvysurvivor.com/idpa.htm [?] [evil]

What does it tell ya? [cry]

Got scared with that one!

Most of the article is acceptable and seems to be just right. I guess what bothered me with that one is when it came to the 9mm stuff.

"There is no advantage at all in using a revolver in this shooting. Most course structure will penalize the revolver because of slow reloading. Likewise, most 9mm guns will not qualify on the power required for state and national level competition, but they are usually allowed in local club shoots. "

Anyhow, issue is resolved. Thanks. [wink]
 
Holster

Is this type of holster approved by IDPA?

It has a molded belt loop.
7000_m.jpg


I hope somebody here is familiar with the belt loop of this holster. My concern was if this one is approved under IDPA. Thanks.
 
Re: Holster

hiram_Abiff said:
Is this type of holster approved by IDPA?

It has a molded belt loop.
7000_m.jpg


I hope somebody here is familiar with the belt loop of this holster. My concern was if this one is approved under IDPA. Thanks.



There no longer is a list of IDPA approved holsters.

The holster in your picture is not a very good one for IDPA, because it has a retention strap.

The strap messes up your draw and can make safe reholstering a PITA.

Try an Uncle Mike's Kydex clamshell-style holster, or a Fobus, or a good IWB holster from Milt Sparks or Mitch Rosen.
 
Re: Holster

Cross-X said:
hiram_Abiff said:
Is this type of holster approved by IDPA?

It has a molded belt loop.
7000_m.jpg


I hope somebody here is familiar with the belt loop of this holster. My concern was if this one is approved under IDPA. Thanks.



There no longer is a list of IDPA approved holsters.

The holster in your picture is not a very good one for IDPA, because it has a retention strap.

The strap messes up your draw and can make safe reholstering a PITA.

Try an Uncle Mike's Kydex clamshell-style holster, or a Fobus, or a good IWB holster from Milt Sparks or Mitch Rosen.

Even though the retention strap is removable?
 
Re: Holster

hiram_Abiff said:
Cross-X said:
hiram_Abiff said:
Is this type of holster approved by IDPA?

It has a molded belt loop.
7000_m.jpg


I hope somebody here is familiar with the belt loop of this holster. My concern was if this one is approved under IDPA. Thanks.



There no longer is a list of IDPA approved holsters.

The holster in your picture is not a very good one for IDPA, because it has a retention strap.

The strap messes up your draw and can make safe reholstering a PITA.

Try an Uncle Mike's Kydex clamshell-style holster, or a Fobus, or a good IWB holster from Milt Sparks or Mitch Rosen.

Even though the retention strap is removable?

Yup. If the holster comes with a retention strap, the rules require you to use it.

Spring for a better holster, amigo! You wouldn't want your un-retention strapped holstered gun to flop out, would you?
 
gotcha! thanks....

The strap on the other side or end was just attached with a Velcro though.

I havent bought it yet... with the belt that came with it... just cost $20! So i though it was a bargain.... but if I could not use it... or if is not even advantageous using it under IPSC... wouldnt be wastng my good hard earned money!



Thanks.
 
hiram_Abiff said:
gotcha! thanks....

The strap on the other side or end was just attached with a Velcro though.

I havent bought it yet... with the belt that came with it... just cost $20! So i though it was a bargain.... but if I could not use it... or if is not even advantageous using it under IPSC... wouldnt be wastng my good hard earned money!



Thanks.



Before you buy that holster, or any other, ask yourself what your purpose in competing in IDPA is.

If you want to compete so you can be better at carrying on the street, you should use gear that is the same as what you carry on the street.

If you want to compete to win, get gear that, while legal, will enable a faster draw, such as the Safariland pouch-style outside the waistband holsters.

Choice is yours, amigo.

C-X
 
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