How not to suck at USPSA/IDPA

[SJan]

Long explanation short:
Practical shooting scoring favors shooting fast accurately. Usually the fast part is more important. Being able to press a trigger fast, often a deliberate slap, is not a bullseye shooter skill. A 9"x11" A zone hit at 5 yards does not need the same sight picture as an x ring at 50'. If you are shooting a USPSA / IDPA game with a clear focused front sight, in perfect alignment of the rear sight, you won't win.

This discussion has shifted away from the original topic. I have one more suggestion for the OP. Read Ben Stoegers books, specifically his first 2, check the published dates I don't remember the titles.

 

[JRT]

Sell both M&P's, buy a CZ Shadow 2. I know just owning it will not make you a better shooter, but it would eliminate the possibility that the gun is causing issues and increase your confidence. Then spend some time with a good instructor.
If possible, have someone record your shooting with an iPhone so you can analyze your performance.

Don't do this for IDPA, Shadow 2 won't make weight.

 

[Admin]

Just my own opinion here. I know some clubs run practice nights during the week. They will set up a few stages for guys to run to keep the perishable skill from perishing. This is a good place to network and ask for help with whatever might be going on. Find someone, or a couple of shooters that will work with you to identify your weak areas. Sometimes errors you are making are not easily seen by you and you'll never work on them because you don't know there is a better approach.

 

[Admin]

I'm going to go ahead and kick the hornets nest. Why does IDPA still exist? It seems to have gotten pretty far from its roots and might as well not even be called defensive pistol, because its not.

 

[JRT]

I'm going to go ahead and kick the hornets nest. Why does IDPA still exist? It seems to have gotten pretty far from its roots and might as well not even be called defensive pistol, because its not.

You're not wrong, and I miss the old days of IDPA. I used to plan my travel schedule so I could shoot the Wednesday night IDPA matches at Smith & Wesson. We had that whole facility to ourselves, I swear their lawyers must have never been informed. That said, I think it still has some defensive elements that separate it from the run and gun sports. I would still be much more active had they not evolved the sport into USPSA light.

 

[allen-1]

Going back to OP, hi @mannydog;

"My times were decent but accuracy was shit."

SLOW DOWN; MAKE THE SHOT.

Anyone can run through a stage fast, the key is hitting your targets while you do so. You moved too quickly, you didn't have a "good enough" sight picture. So, slow down, make the shot. Get the fundamentals of hitting the target, then speed up.

Dot drill could be useful.

Dot Torture Drill - How to Do It & Use It To Improve

The Dot Torture Drill demands absolute consistency in your trigger pull and sight picture. Shooting it clean is a sign of progress in pistol marksmanship.

www.ammoman.com

 

[SJan]

I'm going to go ahead and kick the hornets nest. Why does IDPA still exist? It seems to have gotten pretty far from its roots and might as well not even be called defensive pistol, because its not.

I think a part of it is there are IDPA shooters that truly believe their game is beneficial training.
Most IDPAers, and specifically those who do both IDPA and USPSA are in it just for fun and competitiveness, but I think this group would shoot whatever game is available in their vicinity.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

So, my question to the brain-trust here is: Do you have any advice, suggestions for training drills, practice techniques, recommended videos to watch, or other wisdom so that I won’t be “that guy”?

As long as you shoot safely, do your share of target pasting/prop resetting, and don't whine about the scoring you will never be "that guy". No one really cares about your score but you unless you are one of the top dogs.

I think a part of it is there are IDPA shooters that truly believe their game is beneficial training.

All shooting that reinforces the basics is beneficial training, but not in the sense of equipping one to be an "operator".

There is also a category of shooter who is overschooled and underskilled. You'll recognize this person by their mediocre performance on the range, but ability to talk about the great classes they have taken from all the big names in the industry.

 

[mannydog]

Long explanation short:
Practical shooting scoring favors shooting fast accurately. Usually the fast part is more important. Being able to press a trigger fast, often a deliberate slap, is not a bullseye shooter skill. A 9"x11" A zone hit at 5 yards does not need the same sight picture as an x ring at 50'. If you are shooting a USPSA / IDPA game with a clear focused front sight, in perfect alignment of the rear sight, you won't win.

This discussion has shifted away from the original topic. I have one more suggestion for the OP. Read Ben Stoegers books, specifically his first 2, check the published dates I don't remember the titles.

Thank you. Mannydog

 

[mannydog]

Going back to OP, hi @mannydog;

"My times were decent but accuracy was shit."

SLOW DOWN; MAKE THE SHOT.

Anyone can run through a stage fast, the key is hitting your targets while you do so. You moved too quickly, you didn't have a "good enough" sight picture. So, slow down, make the shot. Get the fundamentals of hitting the target, then speed up.

Dot drill could be useful.

Dot Torture Drill - How to Do It & Use It To Improve

The Dot Torture Drill demands absolute consistency in your trigger pull and sight picture. Shooting it clean is a sign of progress in pistol marksmanship.

www.ammoman.com

Thanks much. Mannydog.

 

[E.Stoner]

I'm going to go ahead and kick the hornets nest. Why does IDPA still exist? It seems to have gotten pretty far from its roots and might as well not even be called defensive pistol, because its not.

They bought the outfits but have no interest in fishing, so they just keep showing up.

 

[allen-1]

I think a part of it is there are IDPA shooters that truly believe their game is beneficial training.
Most IDPAers, and specifically those who do both IDPA and USPSA are in it just for fun and competitiveness, but I think this group would shoot whatever game is available in their vicinity.

Pins, Plates, USPSA, IDPA, SC - they're all good.

I consider IDPA matches to be measurements of how well I can handle the firearm through specified courses of fire. It's not training for armed combat. Preparing for the matches does give me some level of proficiency in the mechanics of drawing, shooting, reloading and perhaps shooting while moving - but thinking that's defense prep is like hitting a punching bag thinking that it's all the training you need to box.

Pins, Plates, USPSA, IDPA, SC - they all GAMES. Awesomely fun games, but games.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm going to go ahead and kick the hornets nest. Why does IDPA still exist? It seems to have gotten pretty far from its roots and might as well not even be called defensive pistol, because its not.

IDPA exists because Bill Wilson wanted a 10 round friendly shooting sport and then president Andy Hollar blew off the idea at a USPSA meeting at a nationals.

IDPA was formed as a directorship, not membership, based organization. Bill Wilson saw first hand that you do not always get your way unless you are the one in charge, so he set up a self-perpetuating board that elects its own members. Doubt that? Call IDPA HQ and ask when you will get your ballot to vote for the directors and president

Much seems to have been done to, depending on your perspective either be "more tactical than USPSA shooting" or "different from USPSA shooting". Different target (copyright issue); different scoring (time plus); tactical mag retention (I have yet to meet a MIL or LEO who can confirm this is part of dept or agency training); the abandoned round dumping rule; the "tactical I have a gun" vest; etc.

 

[paul73]

proficiency in the mechanics of drawing, shooting, reloading and perhaps shooting while moving

that i see for myself - to be able to shoot anything fast and accurately you need to work hard on getting your muscle memory set into a perfect draw where your arms point to a target automatically. once i lock into target i can move to next very quick, but an initial lock takes time.
and if i do not go and do it at least by-weekly, it very quickly self-dissipates into a usual unpredictable arm wave. lately i was shooting only rifles again, as i like it the most , and i bet my pistol work is all in ruins again.

the dot torture mentioned above is not really helpful much - it is more a precision shooting with your shoulders locked. harvard got 2 great ranges with steel plates, that helps a lot when you shoot a row of steel plates doing most left - most right and moving toward center, as you have to rotate your torso and maintain the target sight line. all fun.

 

[steven grammont]

Long explanation short:
Practical shooting scoring favors shooting fast accurately. Usually the fast part is more important. Being able to press a trigger fast, often a deliberate slap, is not a bullseye shooter skill. A 9"x11" A zone hit at 5 yards does not need the same sight picture as an x ring at 50'. If you are shooting a USPSA / IDPA game with a clear focused front sight, in perfect alignment of the rear sight, you won't win.

This discussion has shifted away from the original topic. I have one more suggestion for the OP. Read Ben Stoegers books, specifically his first 2, check the published dates I don't remember the titles.

Stoeger has numerous instructional videos on YouTube as well

 

[allen-1]

that i see for myself - to be able to shoot anything fast and accurately you need to work hard on getting your muscle memory set into a perfect draw where your arms point to a target automatically. once i lock into target i can move to next very quick, but an initial lock takes time.
and if i do not go and do it at least by-weekly, it very quickly self-dissipates into a usual unpredictable arm wave. lately i was shooting only rifles again, as i like it the most , and i bet my pistol work is all in ruins again.

the dot torture mentioned above is not really helpful much - it is more a precision shooting with your shoulders locked. harvard got 2 great ranges with steel plates, that helps a lot when you shoot a row of steel plates doing most left - most right and moving toward center, as you have to rotate your torso and maintain the target sight line. all fun.

I suggested dot torture drill because the OP said that his time was great, his accuracy sucked. I run dot occasionally, because everything except the first and eigth include drawing and shooting. Do it close, when you do it well, move back, rinse, repeat.

Plate rates are fun, and they do help with the transitions.

Setting up three or four targets and pieing them, with two on each is a fun thing to do at the range.



Learned a drill at Steve Anderson's course that's a bitch to shoot and helps a lot.

Picture, if you can, two steels, about 10 to 20 feet apart. Back from them, 8 yards or better, are two shooting boxes, only a couple feet apart. Start in either box. Shoot the steel that's diagonal from you, (left box, right steel); move to the other box and shoot the other steel.

Now do this as many times as you can within a set time frame, say 30 seconds. See how many times you can hit the steels within that time frame WITHOUT MISSING. You miss, you stop, that's your score.

You've got movement, acquisition, and a fairly easy shot on a standard steel.

We've run that at maches. Par time 30 seconds, 1 second off for each steel you hit, stop as soon as you miss. I've seen scores all the way from 30 seconds, (drew and missed), down to 3, (27 hits in 30 seconds).

I've got the equipment to set this up, and I run it once a month. I try to run it the day before I'm shooting steel challenge.

 

[TrashcanDan]

Do you have any advice, suggestions for training drills, practice techniques, recommended videos to watch, or other wisdom so that I won’t be “that guy”?

I'll play this game-
Things that helped me not completely suck

A fun sarcastic and satryical short story by Dan, who still kinda sucks but not entirely.

Grip- Find something that fits your hands well. I see you have an M&P, play around with the back straps. Your best grip might not be the most comfortable, but you could also luck out and wind up with both. See where it sits in your hand naturally and where the point of aim is.
So I have large dickskinners and left handed, so while you'd think there'd be plenty of options out there, there really isn't. I shot i.s.r. for a few years and found X frame grips on all my N frames worked, but thats a different animal altogether.
1911 was to narrow, glock was too blocky, sig didn't have much. Found an all steel Sig that fit, but it weighed like 15 pounds. Same with hk and fn. Shadow fit like a glove. It fit ME well, not saying it'll fit everyone well. You may have glock hands, go with what fits you the best.
Stacking your thumbs and wrapping your support hand around the trigger guard really improved hits for me, tightened em right up. Don't stack your thumbs on a revolver frame. Bad things happen.

So the first order of business (again, for ME) was to get hits on paper. Spent a few range sessions playing around with grip and punching holes to get acclimated to that handgun. You'd be surprised how quick you can build muscle memory. Things got better after putting a green f.o. front sight on everything. For some reason I could pick up green better and quicker than red on a white background. Might be the eye color, might be cause I'm goddam weird. I'm going with weird.

Next was stance and combining that with grip. I've noticed that I stand almost completely on the balls of my feet. Not my actual balls, I'm not that old where they hang that low, although on really hot days they do feel like they're falling out.
Playing around with stance kept me from "rocking" and getting me back on target quicker. Stance for revolver and bottom feed is pretty much the same with the exception of revolver, one foot is back a little farther. Which brought me to changing my draw.

Bowling pin shoots and outlaw steel is a good way to practice draw-on-the-clock. I'm better with a bottom feed than with a wheel gun. Or I'm quicker I should say. The bottom feed cants forward a bit and the clunky 8 shot cants back a bit. Practicing a draw in the garage helped although it still felt clunky with the wheelgun. Bottom feed felt more natural.
Turns out after watching a few steel challenge vids from the club, my draw looked something between this guy-


and this guy-



Minus flipping a jacket open like an old horrible french detective.
Turns out I was flopping around like an epileptic squid. Arms going everywhere. Seriously it looked like I was have a seizure and muscle spasms at the same time.
Some slow-draws in the garage to make things a little more efficient helped with that.
At some point I put yellow sticky note things on the walls and would draw and try to land the sights on one. Then draw, land the sights and transition to another sticky note. Turns out it helped a lot in building muscle memory.
Not a good idea to practice in a public place. People will either A) laugh at you or B) call the cops.
You know, you can wash your car 7 days a week in your driveway, nobody thinks twice. Clean your guns on your porch once and here comes the swat team. Its bullshit.

So back to club level stuff-
I think of it as an over 40 softball league. Nobody cares who comes in what place, the scores don't count for anything and its all to get out of the house.
They do have targets and timers, take advantage of that.
Yea, you always get the one guy who shows up in all his battle-rattle and a helmet like he's auditioning for the next die hard movie, but you kind of have to expect that.
Use those to combine draw, grip, stance and target acquisition. You'll only get better.

Next was on to steel challenge.
Here you can apply everything plus reloading without having to run-and-gun while on the clock.
Speed, accuracy and target transition and you're standing sting still. Great skill builder.
Its also where everything goes to shit.
So you step into the box, the timer beeps, and you forget everything. Everyones watching and scores count.
Is today saturday or sunday? Is my gun loaded? Am I right or left handed? Did I lock the house up? Did I leave the oven on? Am I wearing pants?
After your first 2 or 3 strings (or 20 for me) you'll loosen up.
Once I figured out I wasn't going to solve the worlds problems by trying to set a new record shooting smoke and hope, things got progressively better.
Walls of Steel is also great place to build because you'll reload multiple times on a string. And its a goddam blast. While I never came in top 10, I always came in top 50%. Not bad considering I was always last in the revolver class, but could outrun the bottom 50% of production.
I'll probably never get out of i.s.r. c class, but was on my may to production b class the first season using a bottom feed.

I have missed an entire seaon. My last official shoot was walls of steel in oct 20. Missed the whole steel challenge '20 season thanks to the super cold fake-demic and selling the house and moving.
With any luck I'll be back at it this spring down here after the house is done.
Doubt I'll get into u.s.p.s.a. down here ( they take it super serious down this way), but theres plenty of outlaw stuff, bowling pins and steel challenge

Good luck and don't shoot your eye out. Or a toe.

 

[mannydog]

I'll play this game-
Things that helped me not completely suck

A fun sarcastic and satryical short story by Dan, who still kinda sucks but not entirely.

Grip- Find something that fits your hands well. I see you have an M&P, play around with the back straps. Your best grip might not be the most comfortable, but you could also luck out and wind up with both. See where it sits in your hand naturally and where the point of aim is.
So I have large dickskinners and left handed, so while you'd think there'd be plenty of options out there, there really isn't. I shot i.s.r. for a few years and found X frame grips on all my N frames worked, but thats a different animal altogether.
1911 was to narrow, glock was too blocky, sig didn't have much. Found an all steel Sig that fit, but it weighed like 15 pounds. Same with hk and fn. Shadow fit like a glove. It fit ME well, not saying it'll fit everyone well. You may have glock hands, go with what fits you the best.
Stacking your thumbs and wrapping your support hand around the trigger guard really improved hits for me, tightened em right up. Don't stack your thumbs on a revolver frame. Bad things happen.

So the first order of business (again, for ME) was to get hits on paper. Spent a few range sessions playing around with grip and punching holes to get acclimated to that handgun. You'd be surprised how quick you can build muscle memory. Things got better after putting a green f.o. front sight on everything. For some reason I could pick up green better and quicker than red on a white background. Might be the eye color, might be cause I'm goddam weird. I'm going with weird.

Next was stance and combining that with grip. I've noticed that I stand almost completely on the balls of my feet. Not my actual balls, I'm not that old where they hang that low, although on really hot days they do feel like they're falling out.
Playing around with stance kept me from "rocking" and getting me back on target quicker. Stance for revolver and bottom feed is pretty much the same with the exception of revolver, one foot is back a little farther. Which brought me to changing my draw.

Bowling pin shoots and outlaw steel is a good way to practice draw-on-the-clock. I'm better with a bottom feed than with a wheel gun. Or I'm quicker I should say. The bottom feed cants forward a bit and the clunky 8 shot cants back a bit. Practicing a draw in the garage helped although it still felt clunky with the wheelgun. Bottom feed felt more natural.
Turns out after watching a few steel challenge vids from the club, my draw looked something between this guy-
View attachment 589657

and this guy-

View attachment 589674

Minus flipping a jacket open like an old horrible french detective.
Turns out I was flopping around like an epileptic squid. Arms going everywhere. Seriously it looked like I was have a seizure and muscle spasms at the same time.
Some slow-draws in the garage to make things a little more efficient helped with that.
At some point I put yellow sticky note things on the walls and would draw and try to land the sights on one. Then draw, land the sights and transition to another sticky note. Turns out it helped a lot in building muscle memory.
Not a good idea to practice in a public place. People will either A) laugh at you or B) call the cops.
You know, you can wash your car 7 days a week in your driveway, nobody thinks twice. Clean your guns on your porch once and here comes the swat team. Its bullshit.

So back to club level stuff-
I think of it as an over 40 softball league. Nobody cares who comes in what place, the scores don't count for anything and its all to get out of the house.
They do have targets and timers, take advantage of that.
Yea, you always get the one guy who shows up in all his battle-rattle and a helmet like he's auditioning for the next die hard movie, but you kind of have to expect that.
Use those to combine draw, grip, stance and target acquisition. You'll only get better.

Next was on to steel challenge.
Here you can apply everything plus reloading without having to run-and-gun while on the clock.
Speed, accuracy and target transition and you're standing sting still. Great skill builder.
Its also where everything goes to shit.
So you step into the box, the timer beeps, and you forget everything. Everyones watching and scores count.
Is today saturday or sunday? Is my gun loaded? Am I right or left handed? Did I lock the house up? Did I leave the oven on? Am I wearing pants?
After your first 2 or 3 strings (or 20 for me) you'll loosen up.
Once I figured out I wasn't going to solve the worlds problems by trying to set a new record shooting smoke and hope, things got progressively better.
Walls of Steel is also great place to build because you'll reload multiple times on a string. And its a goddam blast. While I never came in top 10, I always came in top 50%. Not bad considering I was always last in the revolver class, but could outrun the bottom 50% of production.
I'll probably never get out of i.s.r. c class, but was on my may to production b class the first season using a bottom feed.

I have missed an entire seaon. My last official shoot was walls of steel in oct 20. Missed the whole steel challenge '20 season thanks to the super cold fake-demic and selling the house and moving.
With any luck I'll be back at it this spring down here after the house is done.
Doubt I'll get into u.s.p.s.a. down here ( they take it super serious down this way), but theres plenty of outlaw stuff, bowling pins and steel challenge

Good luck and don't shoot your eye out. Or a toe.

Thanks for weighing in here. Good stuff. ( I think I do tend to "rock" in my stance).
Also, you have a future with that writing style of yours.

Best, mannydog.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

Mannydog, do you know how to get to Carnegie hall? Practice, practice, practice. However practice must be purposeful.

https://brianenos.com/shop/shoppractical-shooting-beyond-fundamentals/

Get it.
Read it.
Follow it.

Good luck.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Practice, practice, practice. However practice must be purposeful.

^This.
Back when I was doing circus things, a friend would say "practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect."

 

[Amputee Marksman]

Best ways to get better:
1. Dryfire
2. Shoot steel challenge and pins. This will get your draw and fire times down
3. Shoot stages at IDPA practice with magazines all downloaded as much as possible. This will get you reload practice
4. Work on shooting clean. By this I mean, don't hit non-threats, don't miss (mikes or down 5), no penalties, minimize points down.
5. In practice don't take any makeup shots. Hit your shots the first time.

 

[Knob Creek]

When you practice at the range limit yourself to 50 rounds and make them count. Then go back the next day and do 50 more. You’ll get better results shooting more often that going once and blowing a couple hundred rounds. At some point you’ll get tired and will be just throwing lead down range.

 

[Fezzik68]

but, what do I know...

An NRA Shooting Sports Journal | Why You Need To Shoot Rimfire

If you aren’t shooting rimfire, you’re missing out on a big part of the gun ownership experience

www.ssusa.org

 

[NEMarksman]

A ton of great advice here...below is one I'm about to try to improve my IDPA skills.

For both my dry fire and live fire, I recently ordered the Mantis X10 Elite off of a recommendation of a shooting buddy of mine.

It hasn't arrived yet, but after watching a few reviews, it makes sense to me how this can help. As an example, my trigger pull is great when I dry fire, but I know on occasion I drop the barrell in live fire when I anticipate the shot.

The x10 version of the Mantis allows for live fire, the other version (for pistol) focus on dry fire.

Just another idea to think about as you get into the sport.

 

[dezignguy]

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

 

[allen-1]

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

slow is slow


USPSA is all about scoring the maximum number of points in the shortest possible time. A fast charlie is better than a slow alpha. A fast delta is still better than a very slow alpha. A HUGE part of USPSA is efficiency in movement; every moment that you're not shooting, your hit factor is trending down.

IDPA is weighted more towards accuracy. And looking good in a fishing vest.

Steel Challenge is all about speed, you've got to make your hits, but none of the targets are extraordinarily difficult.

 

[DW357]

slow is slow


USPSA is all about scoring the maximum number of points in the shortest possible time. A fast charlie is better than a slow alpha. A fast delta is still better than a very slow alpha. A HUGE part of USPSA is efficiency in movement; every moment that you're not shooting, your hit factor is trending down.

IDPA is weighted more towards accuracy. And looking good in a fishing vest.

Steel Challenge is all about speed, you've got to make your hits, but none of the targets are extraordinarily difficult.

Yup. People that say slow is smooth, smooth is fast clearly have not shot USPSA

 

[DarrenL]

So, my question to the brain-trust here is: wisdom so that I won’t be “that guy”?

No one will remember your score or care about it, not even you, and eventually, even practiscore data will decay/corrupt and be gone forever
What makes you “That guy” is

An extreme Safety violation, especially pointing a gun at someone. You will be remembered forever.
Multiple instances of breaking 180 or other safety violations, or a perception that you will.
Not taping, and to a lesser extent, not helping tear down your last stage
Constantly complaining/being a C**T when something does not go your way, especially when you do not understand the rules.
Trying shenanigans like having your buddy stand in front of the non-threat with a hole in it while you distract the RO

There are others, but you get the idea.

 

[Rockrivr1]

No one will remember your score or care about it, not even you, and eventually, even practiscore data will decay/corrupt and be gone forever
What makes you “That guy” is

An extreme Safety violation, especially pointing a gun at someone. You will be remembered forever.
Multiple instances of breaking 180 or other safety violations, or a perception that you will.
Not taping, and to a lesser extent, not helping tear down your last stage
Constantly complaining/being a C**T when something does not go your way, especially when you do not understand the rules.
Trying shenanigans like having your buddy stand in front of the non-threat with a hole in it while you distract the RO

There are others, but you get the idea.

I broke the 180 rule once. I didn't think I did, but the RO said so and I'm not arguing with an RO at a stage. It can be a very hard learning experience, but I've never done it again. Mistakes can happen and you need to learn from it. Remember the next event I went to after the mistake and it felt like I was wearing a Cone of Shame!

Live and learn!

 

[Supermoto]

slow is slow


USPSA is all about scoring the maximum number of points in the shortest possible time. A fast charlie is better than a slow alpha. A fast delta is still better than a very slow alpha. A HUGE part of USPSA is efficiency in movement; every moment that you're not shooting, your hit factor is trending down.

This is a really good point that many miss. The idea is to do everything sooner. Faster means nothing if it doesn't result in sooner