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I HATE CASE TRIMMING!!
- Thread starter deerdad
- Start date
Guys, even sizing same lot, same day fired brass will produce ("headspace dimensions") head to shoulder dimensions that vary .005" and more never mind a trimmer that indexes on a shoulder which may or may not be perpendicular to the base of the cartridge.
They chamber fine in my wilson case gauge if that's what you mean. Like I mentioned before, I don't want to run into trouble if I have cases that are as long as 2.500" (.006" over max case length). I'm not experienced enough with rifle reloading to know if that's something I can ignore. I always play it safe and follow reloading manuals when they specify min/max case lengths.
xtry51
NES Member
If it was me, and I wasn't reloading match ammo, I'd just adjust the trimmer so the longest case I got was the max length and let the rest end up as they did.
If you're really concerned about the accuracy, sort the brass. Otherwise I'd just work around it.
If you're really concerned about the accuracy, sort the brass. Otherwise I'd just work around it.
Remember, the L.E. Wilson gauges do not give you precise case diameter checks, it's more for shoulder positioning. You may have brass that passes the shoulder check, but it could be too big diameter-wise and still bind while chambering. It wouldn't hurt to run your mic over the mouth, neck, shoulder and base to be sure everything is in spec.
I say this from experience (and it's in their instructions and or video) with neck-sized .223 Remington case that dropped into the gauge just perfectly, but the shoulders were > .354" diameter and bound in AR chambers.
I say this from experience (and it's in their instructions and or video) with neck-sized .223 Remington case that dropped into the gauge just perfectly, but the shoulders were > .354" diameter and bound in AR chambers.
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For now I'm only shooting at 120 yards. So accuracy is a concern but at that distance, I doubt varying caselengths would be noticeable when looking for accuracy changes. I just bring my 8" steel plate and hang it at the backstop and if I can hit that every time at 120 yards, I'm pleased - which so far hasn't been an issue.
But yeah your suggestion crossed my mind last night but I was unsure about the safety of shooting cases that are much below the min case length.
I started a thread over on the CMP forums and got some good suggestions from other guys using Giraud trimmers and reloading 30-06 for their Garands.
One guy said:
I have had similar issues with the Giraud Power trimmer. However, a review of the problem came back to the resizing step. The HXP brass was not fully sizing and therefore setting the bottleneck consistantly. I may not have been bottoming out the shellholder the die because of increased resistance at the web. The HXP being a somewhat stiffer load, and the consistancy of the brass is the likely reason - where I thought the case was fully resized - but it was not. Once that was resolved the issue with the trimmer was resolved.
Although I'm pretty sure I'm raising the ram as high as it will go while it makes contact with the sizing die. I'm using a Hornady LNL progressive press by the way.
I suppose I could try screwing the sizing die further into the press to ensure that it's sizing the entire case.
One guy said:
I have had similar issues with the Giraud Power trimmer. However, a review of the problem came back to the resizing step. The HXP brass was not fully sizing and therefore setting the bottleneck consistantly. I may not have been bottoming out the shellholder the die because of increased resistance at the web. The HXP being a somewhat stiffer load, and the consistancy of the brass is the likely reason - where I thought the case was fully resized - but it was not. Once that was resolved the issue with the trimmer was resolved.
Although I'm pretty sure I'm raising the ram as high as it will go while it makes contact with the sizing die. I'm using a Hornady LNL progressive press by the way.
I suppose I could try screwing the sizing die further into the press to ensure that it's sizing the entire case.
Others said it could be the way I'm orienting the cordless drill with the tri way trimmer attached:
On the Giraud, I found it necessary to lay the drill on it's back with the attachment facing the ceiling, and feed the cases into the device facing down.
With it's much tighter tolerances, small chips will accumulate in the area where contact with the case is made and that case will be long, and possibly hard to pull back out. Putting the drill into a vertical orientation eliminated that. Next time I use it, I'll try it without the cover that contains the shavings and see if that makes a difference. It is nice that they are contained and I don't have brass shavings everywhere.
And many others are suggesting what many of you guys here are saying, just set it to trim the longest case and don't worry about the others that are below that or just not worry about cases that are over the max case length, or trim the cases 0.02" below max and never have to trim again..
Lastly, one of the more experienced reloaders and CMP shooters over there suggested to forget the $100 tri way and just go back to the $10 lee cutter that works every time but might take 30% more time to prep a case lol.
I think the backlog of 30-06 brass made me consider the tri way since I could process them quicker than the lee but I suppose if I keep up with the brass in smaller batches, it's not a big project...
On the Giraud, I found it necessary to lay the drill on it's back with the attachment facing the ceiling, and feed the cases into the device facing down.
With it's much tighter tolerances, small chips will accumulate in the area where contact with the case is made and that case will be long, and possibly hard to pull back out. Putting the drill into a vertical orientation eliminated that. Next time I use it, I'll try it without the cover that contains the shavings and see if that makes a difference. It is nice that they are contained and I don't have brass shavings everywhere.
And many others are suggesting what many of you guys here are saying, just set it to trim the longest case and don't worry about the others that are below that or just not worry about cases that are over the max case length, or trim the cases 0.02" below max and never have to trim again..
Lastly, one of the more experienced reloaders and CMP shooters over there suggested to forget the $100 tri way and just go back to the $10 lee cutter that works every time but might take 30% more time to prep a case lol.
I think the backlog of 30-06 brass made me consider the tri way since I could process them quicker than the lee but I suppose if I keep up with the brass in smaller batches, it's not a big project...
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I just started 223, the rcbs mic is a must, neck sizing with Redding, had to turn that die way down beyond the shell plate, my rounds never would have chamber other wise, the Giraud trimmer worked well even with neck sized brass, but it was all Lake City, though different years had some deviations. They will all fire safety, not match grade, but better than any boxed plinking ammo.
I'm still new to reloading but my tri way is an awesome time saver. I did notice in the directions it clearly stated that it was not for use with neck sized brass and only recommended for full length resized brass. I dont even know the benefit of neck sizing, but maybe that could be an issue?
Yes, I read that too, I didn't have an issue as my die is also full length, with neck sizing. Neck sizing only, doesn't size the shoulder. Advantage for bolt action only, no full length , then no lube, possible longer case life
xtry51
NES Member
Neck sizing is only if you're shooting brass out of a single gun and you keep it segregated after it is fired from that rifle.
On shooting short brass, I don't do 30-06, but on 5.56 and .308 I've used cases 0.040" short and seen no issues. I usually trim my brass so the average of the batch comes out to the minimum listed length. If you do that it'll last a while before you have to trim again.
On shooting short brass, I don't do 30-06, but on 5.56 and .308 I've used cases 0.040" short and seen no issues. I usually trim my brass so the average of the batch comes out to the minimum listed length. If you do that it'll last a while before you have to trim again.
Case gage useless? Hardly. If you want to check the base to shoulder the case gages are the only ones that checks the entire length envelope. If you like case mics better, fine, but have you considered what a case mic would read on a banana case or out of square head to body? You ever get one that reads weird and when you remeasure it's fine? Rotate that cartridge on a flat surface to see if it's leaning or bowed. While I'm on this mini rant have you calibrated your case mic?
This is what someone suggested on the CMP forums. Also said he thinks it's because I'm reloading on a progressive press. Claims the shell plate flexes too much on many progressive presses and I should reload on a single stage? If that's true, now I understand why so many people reload on a single stage (among other reasons of course)
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
What are you rifle reloaders using for a press?
I'm using a 1050, progressive, after mic'ing the cases, the variation is on the size the case prior to sizing , as was posted here previous by others, same rifle, same brass, has variations. I haven't isolated a specific year of a specific case and then removed all the anomalies and then did a progressive press variation test, why, best the ammo is already better than a I as a shooter. Will it chamber, will it shoot reasonable accurate, that is the reason I am using a progressive, not for perfection, because I want to shoot more accurate for less.This is what someone suggested on the CMP forums. Also said he thinks it's because I'm reloading on a progressive press. Claims the shell plate flexes too much on many progressive presses and I should reload on a single stage? If that's true, now I understand why so many people reload on a single stage (among other reasons of course)
What are you rifle reloaders using for a press?
Thank you for sharing a very good use for the gauge, but please don't infer, for the purpose of determining sizing die height adjustment and for shoulder and for chambering a round for a specific rifle, the case gauge has a limited use, when compared to Pistol gauge. I gauge all my 9mm, it is simple, if it fits, I don't pull it and will chamber in all my 9mm pistols. For rifle this is not the case. I would hope someone isn't basing their adjustments on a single sample of brass, that would be a very bad idea. As you point out it may have some deformations the gauge would point out.
After three years of poo pooing getting a Giraud trimmer I have decided that $460 for a setup may just be worth the investment. The last 2500 cases I did took weeks of multiple steps to trim, chamfer and deburr.
I will be ordering before the weekend .
I will be ordering before the weekend .
For everything except my machine gun ammo, I size on a single stage. It really does make a difference.
I took Jim's pistol reloading class but not his rifle class. Also been reading all of his articles on his website and in the GOAL newsletters. I agree it would be great to take his rifle class for sure.
I guess I was oblivious to the issue of using a progressive press with rifle calibers. Might have to consider getting a decent single stage soon once I start shooting rifle a lot more.
This is what someone suggested on the CMP forums. Also said he thinks it's because I'm reloading on a progressive press. Claims the shell plate flexes too much on many progressive presses and I should reload on a single stage? If that's true, now I understand why so many people reload on a single stage (among other reasons of course)
What are you rifle reloaders using for a press?
Way over thinking this my friend. Your reloading garand food.
Tubb mentions the ammo used in the Palma matches back in his day where loaded on progressive loaders.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NUnrYp0NH38
Set your trimmer up to trim a average of min or close to it and have at it. Don't get to hung up on reloading for the M1. Good bullet decent consistent powder charge and your going to be fine.
Setting up your die? Hmm do you have a case gauge or mic of some sort like the hornady headspace comparator?
Take 10 unfired PPU and HXP measure with what tool you have. Look at your average.
Now grab 10 of ppu
fired cases from your M1. Measure them and see what your average is.Now resize 1 case from ppu and hxp see how much your current die adjustment pushes back the shoulder.
If it pushes them back to your unfired case average your good to go. If you don't want to push your brass all the way back to unfired measurement set your die on average to push back your fired cases .005 or so. This will work fine in your rifle.
Also the max case dimensions measured from case head to shoulder datem per SAAMI is 2.0526
-.0070 . Now this only matters if your tool happens to measure from the exact same point on the shoulder. I work my brass in 500 pc lots for my match M1 I trim every 2 loads so 1st 3rd and 5th loading. I then put the 5th loaded brass in a bucket. When that bucket gets full I will decide to keep loading it , aneal it or what have you.
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Thanks Mac. Yes I realize I'm probably overthinking this and it's all because of this friggen tri way trimmer. I'm not trying to have cases that are all exactly the same length for some 1000 yard bench rest shooting. I Just wanted some sort of consistency with this $100 I just dropped on the tri way
I guess if the cases are safe to load, then I don't care about how consistent the lengths are and just need to move on.
I did just look at the die again and it wasn't screwed in an additional 1/4 turn after hitting the shell plate as outlined in the lee instructions. I screwed it in further which helped slightly. After resizing 20 cases, they ranged from 2.472" to 2.487" not perfect but they're below the max case length. Also this was all HXP brass. I don't have anymore PPU brass to resize until I shoot the PPU ammo and tumble the cases. But I'm sure once I do that, the tri way will still need adjustment for the PPU cases since it was set for the HXP cases.
I guess if the cases are safe to load, then I don't care about how consistent the lengths are and just need to move on.
I did just look at the die again and it wasn't screwed in an additional 1/4 turn after hitting the shell plate as outlined in the lee instructions. I screwed it in further which helped slightly. After resizing 20 cases, they ranged from 2.472" to 2.487" not perfect but they're below the max case length. Also this was all HXP brass. I don't have anymore PPU brass to resize until I shoot the PPU ammo and tumble the cases. But I'm sure once I do that, the tri way will still need adjustment for the PPU cases since it was set for the HXP cases.
Thanks Mac. Yes I realize I'm probably overthinking this and it's all because of this friggen tri way trimmer. I'm not trying to have cases that are all exactly the same length for some 1000 yard bench rest shooting. I Just wanted some sort of consistency with this $100 I just dropped on the tri way
I guess if the cases are safe to load, then I don't care about how consistent the lengths are and just need to move on.
I did just look at the die again and it wasn't screwed in an additional 1/4 turn after hitting the shell plate as outlined in the lee instructions. I screwed it in further which helped slightly. After resizing 20 cases, they ranged from 2.472" to 2.487" not perfect but they're below the max case length. Also this was all HXP brass. I don't have anymore PPU brass to resize until I shoot the PPU ammo and tumble the cases. But I'm sure once I do that, the tri way will still need adjustment for the PPU cases since it was set for the HXP cases.
Yes you tend to have certain expectations when you spend more money.
If I ever get a progressive I will load my M1 and AR stuff with out hesitation on it.
I keep telling myself I'm going to buy a 650 load up all the bullets I have for M1 AR and 45 then sell the loader , if I load up all the bulets/cases I have it will take me 10 years to shoot it all!
If you have some sort of gauge measure some factory ammo you will be surprised how inconsistent some of it it.
HXP year to year also. I have some 1967 HXP that feels like it is going to stick when I resize it. ?
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Andrew, I might be missing something here so please forgive the following. Sizing the brass has nothing to do with the OAL of that brass. Sizing restores the cartridge to unfired "spec" more or less. Trimming is what brings in the OAL.
I think I was just saying that the cases will stretch (OAL changes) after you resize them. But yes you're correct, the purpose of sizing is not to ensure proper OAL, only to restore it back to unfired condition/spec.
If I just stuck with my Lee cutter and lyman case prep tool, I would have never had all these questions/concerns with resizing and if I should be reloading on a SS press etc. I ought to just sell the tri way and avoid spending more money on a SS press or new dies just so this stupid trimmer will work properly
Yes I've noticed some years of the HXP are MUCH harder to resize and it feels like they might stick also. I don't see how anyone can get consistent results with varying years of HXP when it comes to resizing and trimming (using a trimmer that indexes off the shoulder anyway).
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