I HATE CASE TRIMMING!!

[PatMcD]

I am still missing how this is the fault of the trimmer. The Tri-Way indexes off of the shoulder. If your brass is coming out different OAL, then you have sizing issues.

 

[DW357]

I am still missing how this is the fault of the trimmer. The Tri-Way indexes off of the shoulder. If your brass is coming out different OAL, then you have sizing issues.

No you're right, it's not the fault of the trimmer. I realize that now that I've been enlightened by more experienced rifle reloaders here and on the CMP forum. I should probably edit some of my previous posts - I was just getting frustrated. But anyway, it seems like the flexing on my Hornady LNL is part of the problem.

I'm going to order a single stage press soon for rifle loads - especially once I shoot the rest of my ~1,200 rounds of factory 30-06 ammo and need to reload all the brass.

 

[jasons]

I load match rifle ammo on a L-n-L. At least a couple thousand rounds a season. So confused by this thread.

 

[DW357]

I load match rifle ammo on a L-n-L. At least a couple thousand rounds a season. So confused by this thread.

Well I kinda hijacked the last few pages of this thread with different questions/concerns than the OP back in March. But to summarize, I'm getting inconsistent trim lengths (with 30-06 fired from my Garand) with the Giraud tri way trimmer. The conclusion/answer is that me/my press isn't consistently/properly resizing the cases which results in inconsistent trim lengths with the Giraud (which measures from the case shoulder). Many have suggested to resize on a more sturdy single stage press that won't flex like a progressive press which might help. But it could be other things like the type of lube used, how much, how consistent my motion is with the ram of the press etc.

 

[jasons]

Well I kinda hijacked the last few pages of this thread with different questions/concerns than the OP back in March. But to summarize, I'm getting inconsistent trim lengths (with 30-06 fired from my Garand) with the Giraud tri way trimmer. The conclusion/answer is that me/my press isn't consistently/properly resizing the cases which results in inconsistent trim length with the Giraud (which measures from the case shoulder). Many have suggested to resize on a more sturdy single stage press that won't flex like a progressive press?

Any inconsistency you see from sizing on the L-n-L should still be within specs. Maybe not benchrest perfect but close enough.

My guess is that either your technique is off, you're not lubing enough, or you're just getting anal over minor inconsistencies that don't actually matter unless you're shooting benchrest.

 

[mac1911]

If I just stuck with my Lee cutter and lyman case prep tool, I would have never had all these questions/concerns with resizing and if I should be reloading on a SS press etc. I ought to just sell the tri way and avoid spending more money on a SS press or new dies just so this stupid trimmer will work properly

Yes I've noticed some years of the HXP are MUCH harder to resize and it feels like they might stick also. I don't see how anyone can get consistent results with varying years of HXP when it comes to resizing and trimming (using a trimmer that indexes off the shoulder anyway).

Andrew I shot my best over all score with mixed head stamp HXP resized to 0 on my RCBS case gauge loaded with a mix of 150 and 155 grain bullets. 467/500
My second highest score goes to mix head stamp factory HXP.....I had a luicky off hand that day and just happen to be really on on my rapids 449/500
My average with my M1 last year was 437/500 this year.....I suck no matter what ammo I use.

 

[DW357]

Any inconsistency you see from sizing on the L-n-L should still be within specs. Maybe not benchrest perfect but close enough.

My guess is that either your technique is off, you're not lubing enough, or you're just getting anal over minor inconsistencies that don't actually matter unless you're shooting benchrest.

Certainly could be my technique or not enough lube.

I think everyone is misunderstanding my question/concern. I'm not looking for benchrest accuracy. I just wanted to see some sort of consistency with trimming cases on the Giraud. It's annoying that I spent $100 on it and I'm not getting good results. But the consensus seems to be just move on and stop caring about cases that aren't being trimmed and some cases that are being trimmed below min case length by the Giraud. Safety was my biggest concern so I didn't want to make unsafe ammo to shoot from my Garand.

At this point I'm just going to move on and if cases vary from 2.470 to 2.490" then so be it.

 

[xtry51]

Lanolin lube for the cases. Best single thing I've switched that has made a huge difference in how easy it is to resize and how even the cases come out dimensionally. I make my own, but you can buy it as well from Dillon. A spray bottle lasts a LONG time.

Throw a big pile in a cardboard box like 500 or so and add 2 mist squirts from the bottle and shake them up for about 30sec, 2 more squirts and shake again. Let stand for 10-15min for alcohol to evaporate.

 

[jasons]

At this point I'm just going to move on and if cases vary from 2.470 to 2.490" then so be it.

Good plan. The spec is 2.494 -.020 so you're pretty close. I wouldn't think twice about shooting them even if a few are technically 4 thou shorter than spec. That's not going to cause any problems.

 

[DW357]

Good plan. The spec is 2.494 -.020 so you're pretty close. I wouldn't think twice about shooting them even if a few are technically 4 thou shorter than spec. That's not going to cause any problems.

Cool. I did have one that was 2.500" but I set that one aside to trim with the lee cutter.

 

[DW357]

Lanolin lube for the cases. Best single thing I've switched that has made a huge difference in how easy it is to resize and how even the cases come out dimensionally. I make my own, but you can buy it as well from Dillon. A spray bottle lasts a LONG time.

Throw a big pile in a cardboard box like 500 or so and add 2 mist squirts from the bottle and shake them up for about 30sec, 2 more squirts and shake again. Let stand for 10-15min for alcohol to evaporate.

I bought lanolin oil and 99% alochol on Amazon over the winter and just haven't mixed it up yet. But now that I've recently switched over to reloading rifle, I'll have to mix some up this week. Seems like 1:12 is a good ratio to start.

I'll also try the cardboard box method, thanks!

 

[xtry51]

A little of that lube goes a long way. Don't get the idea you need to see them dripping wet while you're spraying the cases.

 

[DW357]

A little of that lube goes a long way. Don't get the idea you need to see them dripping wet while you're spraying the cases.

Will do, thanks.

 

[mac1911]

Will do, thanks.

yes and to much the stuff gets everywhere has a bit of a funk smell to it also.
As for your trimming woes. You cant get a consistent trim if your shoulder setback/angle is not consistent..... I set up my trimmer to cut one case to min trim to length I dont bother to check the other cases.

 

[DW357]

yes and to much the stuff gets everywhere has a bit of a funk smell to it also.
As for your trimming woes. You cant get a consistent trim if your shoulder setback/angle is not consistent..... I set up my trimmer to cut one case to min trim to length I dont bother to check the other cases.

Yeah the lanolin does have a weird smell for sure.

Last night I tried using generous amounts of RCBS lube and even ran the cases through the sizer twice to see if that made a difference. I had 4 or 5 cases that were +/- 0.001 2.482 but the rest were all over the map, 2.468 all the way to 2.492". But I'm going to stop sweating it and mix up some lanolin/alcohol then I figured I'd order up a lee classic cast single stage - found one for $111 shipped. I should have had a single stage a while ago. It will be worth the cost especially when I eventually start reloading other rifle calibers down the road. Buy once cry once lol.

 

[jasons]

Yeah the lanolin does have a weird smell for sure.

Last night I tried using generous amounts of RCBS lube and even ran the cases through the sizer twice to see if that made a difference. I had 4 or 5 cases that were +/- 0.001 2.482 but the rest were all over the map, 2.468 all the way to 2.492". But I'm going to stop sweating it and mix up some lanolin/alcohol then I figured I'd order up a lee classic cast single stage - found one for $111 shipped. I should have had a single stage a while ago. It will be worth the cost especially when I eventually start reloading other rifle calibers down the road. Buy once cry once lol.

Sounds like you're measuring the full length of the case. That's going to be all over the place regardless of what type of press you size on. What is the measurement from the base to the datum line on the shoulder? It should be 2.0526 -.007 once you have the sizing die adjusted properly.

 

[MGnoob]

I can't believe this thread is still alive.I also use lanolin and alcohol that I get on amazon.
I've now mastered case trimming. Here's a cut and past post from another thread on another forum

Paste
I have the Giraud annealer and like it..
For trimming I use the Dillion trimmer on my 1050 with the M die and love it. Mines equip with the W&P autodrive. I clean the reloading room up while my brass is being trimmed.Even go the bathroom or get a drink without watching it..I just started doing this instead of holding the foot pedal and safety button. I just put a coffee can with some boolits for weight on the pedal and button and use the power switch for on/off. It usually runs for over an hour between malfunction.i've accepted this could ruin a few pieces of brass or bend a decaping pin. I trim my .223 brass to 1.750.. and It holds it within 1.750-1.747.. I don't remember why I trim a little shorter than spec..makes me wonder why.
Now if I could just get casting and sizing automated.

Edit
I remember now..I trim them just short to ensure all pieces are trimmed the same lenght.this really helps consistency of the flares with the M die.i only use range pickup that others may have already trimmed under spec.
I'm surprised how much the cases grow from firing, then roll sizing with my case pro 100.
Now that I have several thousand cases and use a brass catcher I should probably not trim them so short unless it is a fresh lot of range pickup.

 

[MGnoob]

Yeah the lanolin does have a weird smell for sure.

Last night I tried using generous amounts of RCBS lube and even ran the cases through the sizer twice to see if that made a difference. I had 4 or 5 cases that were +/- 0.001 2.482 but the rest were all over the map, 2.468 all the way to 2.492". But I'm going to stop sweating it and mix up some lanolin/alcohol then I figured I'd order up a lee classic cast single stage - found one for $111 shipped. I should have had a single stage a while ago. It will be worth the cost especially when I eventually start reloading other rifle calibers down the road. Buy once cry once lol.

Do you think your experiencing "springback" of the shoulder? I had a lot more variation before I started annealing .
It would also depend if you keep your brass in lots or just constantly mixing stuff in.

Just throwing this idea out there. ..

 

[DW357]

Sounds like you're measuring the full length of the case. That's going to be all over the place regardless of what type of press you size on. What is the measurement from the base to the datum line on the shoulder? It should be 2.0526 -.007 once you have the sizing die adjusted properly.

Well yeah I was measuring the full length to make sure they're not too long for my Garand. But it's all over the place because most of the cases aren't sizing consistently which throws off the trimmer indexing off the shoulder.

I haven't measured from the base to the datum line on the shoulder...

I've adjusted the die to feel it cam over - not really sure what else to try?

And just to reiterate, I'm not trying to make ammo for 1,000 yard shooting, just inside of 120 yards with my Garand - which is far from a benchrest target rifle. I'm just trying to get consistent trims with the Giraud and make sure I don't blow up myself or the Garand, that's all.

 

[DW357]

Do you think your experiencing "springback" of the shoulder? I had a lot more variation before I started annealing .
It would also depend if you keep your brass in lots or just constantly mixing stuff in.

Just throwing this idea out there. ..

Yeah I do think it's springback, especially with the thicker HXP brass. PPU and other commercial 30-06 brass seems to size very easily and consistently which results in consistent trims on the Giraud.

Yes I keep track of the brass and note how many times it's been fired etc

 

[jasons]

I haven't measured from the base to the datum line on the shoulder...

You need to know that measurement.

I've adjusted the die to feel it cam over - not really sure what else to try?

That's your issue. For bottleneck cartridges you need to be more deliberate when you set up your sizing die. You need some way of measuring cartridge headspace, whether you use something like this, or a Mo's gauge or whatever. Back the die off, size a case, measure, adjust the die a little, repeat until the gauge reads between 2.0456" to 2.0526" (for .30-06.)

Once you have that measurement set and cases are consistently being sized within spec, THEN move on to trimming.

 

[DW357]

You need to know that measurement.



That's your issue. For bottleneck cartridges you need to be more deliberate when you set up your sizing die. You need some way of measuring cartridge headspace, whether you use something like this, or a Mo's gauge or whatever. Back the die off, size a case, measure, adjust the die a little, repeat until the gauge reads between 2.0456" to 2.0526" (for .30-06.)

Once you have that measurement set and cases are consistently being sized within spec, THEN move on to trimming.

Gotcha, makes sense. Well that is probably the most helpful tip I've got yet in this thread. Thanks!

I actually have that Hornady comparator kit but haven't used it yet. Mac1911 recommended that I get that for measuring how much I'm setting the shoulder back etc.

Anyway, I already sized the rest of the once fired cases last night - albeit incorrectly. But I just used that comparator and measured a dozen cases or so. Many were in that range you listed above. But some were at 2.040". I don't have anymore once fired cases but I have some 2x fired cases that need to be sized. Is it better to do this measurement with once fired cases or doesn't matter?

And how far am I backing out the die? Until it doesn't cam over? Forgive my ignorance, as I'm realizing I have a lot to learn with rifle reloading.

 

[jasons]

I actually have that Hornady comparator kit but haven't used it yet. Mac1911 recommended that I get that for measuring how much I'm setting the shoulder back etc.

Anyway, I already sized the rest of the once fired cases last night - albeit incorrectly. But I just used that comparator and measured a dozen cases or so. Many were in that range you listed above. But some were at 2.040". I don't have anymore once fired cases but I have some 2x fired cases that need to be sized. Is it better to do this measurement with once fired cases or doesn't matter?

Ideally you want to check the first few of each batch. (By batch I mean a collection of cases with the same headstamp that have all been fired the same number of times. I color-code mine so I have a blue batch, a red batch, a green batch, etc., and I keep track of how many times each has been fired. I don't move onto the next batch until I've gone through a complete batch, at which point I'll clean, size, and put the whole batch back into the rotation at once.)

You may need to do some minor adjustments over the lifetime of the brass as it work hardens. Also if you get a new lot you may have to tweak the die a bit. Different headstamps, and sometimes different lots with the same headstamp, will often size a bit different. I check the first few, make any adjustments I need, then spot check one every 50 or so.

If I plan on shooting the brass in the same rifle it came out of I'll measure a fired case and subtract about 2 or 3 thou, if it's brass that might end up in any rifle I'll aim for the high end of SAAMI.

Even on a progressive you shouldn't see much more than a couple thou variance between cases from the same lot with the same number of firings. If you're seeing more than that something is "off."


Why does it matter? If you size them too big you'll have problems extracting, if you size them too small you're more likely to have case head separations. If you size them just right they'll function perfectly and you'll get long brass life and the potential for good accuracy.

And how far am I backing out the die? Until it doesn't cam over? Forgive my ignorance, as I'm realizing I have a lot to learn with rifle reloading.

Back it out until it's not touching the shoulder, then bring it in a little at a time until you're bumping the shoulder back just the right amount. (See above for a definition of "just the right amount.")

One little trick: Back the die out a lot (like 10 turns,) put a case in the shell holder, run the ram up so the case is inside the body of the die and the press handle is all the way down, screw the die in until you feel it snug itself up to the case then back off a quarter turn, then start the "measure, adjust, measure" thing. Don't forget to lock the die with the lock ring every time. (Yes it's a PITA but it's worth it.)

 

[EddieCoyle]

The Hornady comparator is good for a relative measurement, but don't trust it for an absolute measurement. In other words, don't use it like you're using it.

 

[DW357]

Ideally you want to check the first few of each batch. (By batch I mean a collection of cases with the same headstamp that have all been fired the same number of times. I color-code mine so I have a blue batch, a red batch, a green batch, etc., and I keep track of how many times each has been fired. I don't move onto the next batch until I've gone through a complete batch, at which point I'll clean, size, and put the whole batch back into the rotation at once.)

You may need to do some minor adjustments over the lifetime of the brass as it work hardens. Also if you get a new lot you may have to tweak the die a bit. Different headstamps, and sometimes different lots with the same headstamp, will often size a bit different. I check the first few, make any adjustments I need, then spot check one every 50 or so.

If I plan on shooting the brass in the same rifle it came out of I'll measure a fired case and subtract about 2 or 3 thou, if it's brass that might end up in any rifle I'll aim for the high end of SAAMI.

Even on a progressive you shouldn't see much more than a couple thou variance between cases from the same lot with the same number of firings. If you're seeing more than that something is "off."


Why does it matter? If you size them too big you'll have problems extracting, if you size them too small you're more likely to have case head separations. If you size them just right they'll function perfectly and you'll get long brass life and the potential for good accuracy.



Back it out until it's not touching the shoulder, then bring it in a little at a time until you're bumping the shoulder back just the right amount. (See above for a definition of "just the right amount.")

One little trick: Back the die out a lot (like 10 turns,) put a case in the shell holder, run the ram up so the case is inside the body of the die and the press handle is all the way down, screw the die in until you feel it snug itself up to the case then back off a quarter turn, then start the "measure, adjust, measure" thing. Don't forget to lock the die with the lock ring every time. (Yes it's a PITA but it's worth it.)

Wow, sounds like this is going to be a lot more involved than I thought - but not surprised as bottleneck cartridges is a different animal than straight wall pistol cartridges.

Since I'm using HXP brass from the 1960s - 1980s, I won't get any sort of consistent sizing results unless I sort all of the brass by year - even then I think there are significant variations in the brass. But I have been keeping tracking of the brass by how many times it's been fired. Like I mentioned before, the PPU cases have been very consistent - they were trimmed within +/- 0.003" using the Giraud trimmer. So it's really the HXP that is the problem.

But I'll use your tips and mac1911's tips on measuring fired cases and comparing them to unfired cases to get some sort of baseline on how much I'm actually pushing the shoulder back.

FWIW, I've reloaded and shot ~100 of my 30-06 reloads using HXP and PPU brass with a 168 gr BTHP with Varget/H4895/IMR4064, and they all shot very well at 100 yards - much better than HXP ammo. I also didn't have any issues with extraction or feeding. But I'm sure the brass is being overworked and maybe I got lucky with those cases. I'm probably risking some feeding/extracting issues without knowing if I'm properly sizing the cases.

Well I got some stuff to try when I get home today. Thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

The Hornady comparator is good for a relative measurement, but don't trust it for an absolute measurement. In other words, don't use it like you're using it.

Yeah it seems like it's very easy to get varying results with the comparator tool. The instructions say to rotate the case to make sure it's even/flat on the caliper blade but even then you can get varying results.

 

[jasons]

Since I'm using HXP brass from the 1960s - 1980s, I won't get any sort of consistent sizing results unless I sort all of the brass by year - even then I think there are significant variations in the brass.

As long as you're within that .007" window (or even pretty close to it) I wouldn't get too worked up. Brass life might not be as good as it could be but it's just HXP. You just don't want to go over to the point where you're jamming the cartridge into the chamber or under to the point that you're getting case head separations after two firings.

Yeah it seems like it's very easy to get varying results with the comparator tool. The instructions say to rotate the case to make sure it's even/flat on the caliper blade but even then you can get varying results.

The Mo's gauge or the RCBS equivalent is a lot easier to use and more consistent but the hornady tool is still a lot better than guessing.

It's really not as complicated as it may sound, even I figured it out.

 

[DW357]

Okay so I took some measurements last night. I made sure to spin/rotate the cases in the comparator tool to ensure that they were even/flat on the caliper blades etc.

The 10 1978 HXP unfired rounds averaged 2.041"

Then I measured 10 unfired PPU rounds which averaged 2.040"

Then 10 fired 1978 cases averaged 2.042"

So I want to bump the shoulder back to 0.003"-0.006"?? That would mean for the HXP cases, they need to be bumped to 2.039"-2.036"?
Does that sound right for 30-06? I measured a few of the cases I already sized and trimmed and they seemed to range from 2.039-2.042"

You mentioned in an earlier post that I should adjust the die until the cases are 2.0456" to 2.0526"? My results are way off of that it seems.

 

[EddieCoyle]

You mentioned in an earlier post that I should adjust the die until the cases are 2.0456" to 2.0526"? My results are way off of that it seems.

This is what I meant when I said you are doing it wrong.

You are trying to make an absolute measurement with the Hornady headspace comparator which is an uncalibrated device. You know the edge of the little hole in the insert that contacts the case shoulder when you make a measurement? Unless that edge is perfectly square, and exactly .375" in diameter, you won't be able to rely on it for an absolute measurement for .30-06. (The hole would have to be 0.400" for an absolute measurement on .308, or 0.420" for .300 Win Mag).

You use the Hornady gage for a relative measurement. Sort your fired cases by headstamp, measure a sample of cases fired from your rifle, and write down the measurement. It doesn't matter what it is, because it won't match the real headspace length anyway with the Hornady gage. It doesn't matter.

Once you have your reading, adjust your sizing die to push the shoulder back 0.003" to 0.006". Run a sample of cases through the die and measure them. You'd ideally want them all with a headspace length 0.003" shorter than the fired cases, but you're likely going to see some variation in springback, so 0.006" is going to give you better reliability in a semi-auto.

 

[jasons]

Okay so I took some measurements last night. I made sure to spin/rotate the cases in the comparator tool to ensure that they were even/flat on the caliper blades etc.

The 10 1978 HXP unfired rounds averaged 2.041"

Then I measured 10 unfired PPU rounds which averaged 2.040"

Then 10 fired 1978 cases averaged 2.042"

So I want to bump the shoulder back to 0.003"-0.006"?? That would mean for the HXP cases, they need to be bumped to 2.039"-2.036"?
Does that sound right for 30-06? I measured a few of the cases I already sized and trimmed and they seemed to range from 2.039-2.042"

You mentioned in an earlier post that I should adjust the die until the cases are 2.0456" to 2.0526"? My results are way off of that it seems.

2.0456" to 2.0526" is SAAMI spec. If you're going to use that ammo in any random .30-06 chamber that's the number you're looking for.

On the other hand if you're going to keep shooting the same brass out of the same rifle you can bump the shoulders back a few thou.


The measurements you posted seem really short to me but you may happen to have a gun that has a short chamber. Stranger things have happened. (Or like Jim said maybe your gauge isn't quite perfect. I've found them to be pretty close but maybe I've been lucky.)

 

[DW357]

This is what I meant when I said you are doing it wrong.
You are trying to make an absolute measurement with the Hornady headspace comparator which is an uncalibrated device. You know the edge of the little hole in the insert that contacts the case shoulder when you make a measurement? Unless that edge is perfectly square, and exactly .375" in diameter, you won't be able to rely on it for an absolute measurement for .30-06. (The hole would have to be 0.400" for an absolute measurement on .308, or 0.420" for .300 Win Mag).

You use the Hornady gage for a relative measurement. Sort your fired cases by headstamp, measure a sample of cases fired from your rifle, and write down the measurement. It doesn't matter what it is, because it won't match the real headspace length anyway with the Hornady gage. It doesn't matter.

Once you have your reading, adjust your sizing die to push the shoulder back 0.003" to 0.006". Run a sample of cases through the die and measure them. You'd ideally want them all with a headspace length 0.003" shorter than the fired cases, but you're likely going to see some variation in springback, so 0.006" is going to give you better reliability in a semi-auto.

Gotcha. That must be why they call it a "Comparator" tool not an exact tool...

The measurements I posted were from sorted brass (1978 headstamp) but I'll make sure that I'm using the same headstamp brass when I adjust the sizing die and measure the cases.

Thanks for the great advice Jim