How are the Stack On safes?

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm saying the opposite. Standard policy forms treat guns as household contents for covered causes of loss on the policy other than theft, such as fire. I have never seen "firearms or accessories" listed in the property coverage section of any of the standard homeowners forms and glass would be covered just like any other household contents anyway. I don't see what replacement cost coverage has to do w/ firearms vs glass.

It makes a huge difference if you have a typical $2000 firearms limit, and a guns with Nightforce or US Optics scopes. If they are part of the gun you don't get to claim them separately. But, I have no claim experience in this area so I don't know how that would go down.

 

[Buck F]

It makes a huge difference if you have a typical $2000 firearms limit, and a guns with Nightforce or US Optics scopes. If they are part of the gun you don't get to claim them separately. But, I have no claim experience in this area so I don't know how that would go down.

Again, that $2k limit only applies to theft and nowhere in the policy do the words firearms accessories appear. If it's a fire loss, there's no issue.

If I'm filing a claim for theft I would put it in for each individual item that was stolen i.e. Daniel Defense model XYZ rifle, US Optics Scope model ABC, Pelican Case blah blah blah and whatever ammo and other personal property that was stolen. Ammo, cases, optics, etc. would be treated as any other household contents for theft and lots of people have optics not attached to the firearm.

I appreciate the point you're trying to make but I think it's incorrect.

<edit> I just checked and some of the forms include Firearms Related Equipment but that only applies to the Special Limit of Liability for Theft, not fire or other causes of loss. There are several versions of the ISO H03 forms in use, most of our carriers use the one that doesn't include Related Equipment (and of course that's the first one I checked, lol). That being said, if you have guns and you're worried about loss by theft, you're probably going to want to add coverage. And people should check their own individual policies as companies may put add on restrictions by endorsement (none of mine do)

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Again, that $2k limit only applies to theft and nowhere in the policy do the words firearms accessories appear. If it's a fire loss, there's no issue.

If I'm filing a claim for theft I would put it in for each individual item that was stolen i.e. Daniel Defense model XYZ rifle, US Optics Scope model ABC, Pelican Case blah blah blah and whatever ammo and other personal property that was stolen. Ammo, cases, optics, etc. would be treated as any other household contents for theft and lots of people have optics not attached to the firearm.

I appreciate the point you're trying to make but I think it's incorrect.

You are most likely correct. But I think it is important never to admit the scope was not mounted to the gun at time of theft.

 

[Buck F]

You are most likely correct. But I think it is important never to admit the scope was not mounted to the gun at time of theft.

No argument there. I edited the post by the way.

<edit> The point I have been trying to get across is that aside from theft, for which there is a $2,000 or $2,500 limit depending on which version of the national ISO homeowners form you're using (which may or may not include accessories) is that for other covered causes of loss (fire, wind, smoke, etc), firearms are treated like any other household contents subject to deductible, policy limits and whether replacement cost coverage is purchased or not. The OP was mostly about fire rating of the safes.

I did a word search on the various ISO forms. In all of them, the word firearms appeared once - under the Special Limit of Liability for theft. A firearm would be treated no differently than a couch in the event of a fire.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I did a word search on the various ISO forms. In all of them, the word firearms appeared once - under the Special Limit of Liability for theft. A firearm would be treated no differently than a couch in the event of a fire.

Well, there is a slight difference. There are no paperwork formalities or licensed furniture dealer required if the insurer wants to take the fire damaged item to extract salvage value You underscore why I was more concerned about the thickness of the steel on my safe than fire resistance.

The tricky part of a firearms claim is value. The insurer will no doubt look at national market value, and it will be an uphill fight to capture the "pre-ban" premium on EBRs and mags in MA that sets a "MA market value" that is often well in excess of what insurers will find dealers listing the product for or, in some cases, even MSRP.

 

[teamRR]

I ran into similar problems with insuring fishing reels/rods, just as expensive generally when you have sets of the big gold ones.

There were 2 issues, one precisely like guns, low limits on sporting equipment.

The other was "oh if they are ever used in a commercial manner that's a different type of insurance all together". Totally nonsensical, because I go commercial fishing in August on the ocean, a reel can't be covered stored in the house in January.

What they wanted to sell me to clearly insure them was a policy more similar to how you insure say a wedding ring. At like $2000/year, covered no matter what happens and where. Drove me nuts - all I wanted was fire and theft at home...

One insurance company even suggested (the one who insured the boat), because I had a special area of my boat insurance for higher limits on fishing gear, I just keep them in the boat year round - about the least secure place. Funny though I was able to insure boat+gear for less than half the $$ as the gear alone.

Eventually I gave up. I now keep fishing gear in 2 households, prevents more than a 50% loss at least.

 

[Buck F]

Well, there is a slight difference. There are no paperwork formalities or licensed furniture dealer required if the insurer wants to take the fire damaged item to extract salvage value You underscore why I was more concerned about the thickness of the steel on my safe than fire resistance.

The tricky part of a firearms claim is value. The insurer will no doubt look at national market value, and it will be an uphill fight to capture the "pre-ban" premium on EBRs and mags in MA that sets a "MA market value" that is often well in excess of what insurers will find dealers listing the product for or, in some cases, even MSRP.

You don't think we run into valuations disputes on furniture, clothing, etc.? I have stories, Lol. It's getting really interesting on the auto side w/ used cars seemingly appreciating in value. Have someone who bought a 2019 Explorer in November for $32K, totaled this month, and they're worried that the insurer offering them $32K on the total isn't enough.

But yes, valuation on firearms in MA is a thing just like everything else firearms related in MA is. Truth be told, I can count on the fingers of one hand (maybe two, since I joined NES) the number of clients who have discussed guns w/ me & have never had a firearms related claim since I have been there. Most of my friends/clients who own guns own one or two guns, an M&P or a Smith 686 or something because you know, Glocks are illegal in MA. Nothing I own can't be replaced fairly easily, sure there's the MA premium on the rifles and I won't bother trying to collect the value on the pre-ban mags, which I don't have an extensive amount of. I'm not worried about theft where I live, cameras, alarm systems, safes, etc. And I'm sure we'll get some operator who will say that a determined thief can get what they want... I get it. Not worried. I also split my stuff between my office and home (office has a fire rated safe no one is getting into/moving without a fight/equipment, have cameras, alarm & two blocks from police station).

We have a Perazzi shotgun insured for $15k which is the only scheduled gun we have in the office - and it's owned by a woman who also bought a remote controlled self propelled 4 wheel clay pigeon launcher... talk about a conversation w/ Underwriting re whether it was considered a "motorized vehicle" or not (I think that was in the 20K range).

 

[Rob Boudrie]

We have a Perazzi shotgun insured for $15k which is the only scheduled gun we have in the office - and it's owned by a woman who also bought a remote controlled self propelled 4 wheel clay pigeon launcher... talk about a conversation w/ Underwriting re whether it was considered a "motorized vehicle" or not (I think that was in the 20K range).

Holy

 

[Parker Schreiber]

Most of my friends/clients who own guns own one or two guns, an M&P or a Smith 686 or something because you know, Glocks are illegal in MA.

Do the companies you write for refuse to cover Glocks? While it’s illegal for merchants to sell fully assembled Glocks, they are not illegal to own in Mass.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Do the companies you write for refuse to cover Glocks? While it’s illegal for merchants to sell fully assembled Glocks, they are not illegal to own in Mass.

I think he forgot a

 

[Buck F]

Do the companies you write for refuse to cover Glocks? While it’s illegal for merchants to sell fully assembled Glocks, they are not illegal to own in Mass.

I forgot to include the sarcasm tag

 

[Buck F]

Holy

If memory serves it was around $15k for the unit, another couple/few grand for the trailer, shipping, tax came out right around $20k all in. It has those big fat low pressure tires. I’m gonna see if I can find the website, I think there may have been a tracked version too.

Back to the firearms valuation discussion: I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a MA insurer to pay $1,800 for a pre-Healy stock M&P15 or a grand for a Gen 2 Glock 22. Lol.

 

[teamRR]

Boats, certain things, the insurance is "agreed value" - within reason you think your boat is worth 100k? - no problem you pay the bill for a 100k boat, even if you paid 75k or its valued higher or lower. It states on the paperwork what that agreed value is, you can adjust it (and your rate) over time based on depreciation or investments/upgrades.

If anything in that environment the insurance companies actually strive to bump value up. Actually had to fight it out over my new boat where I just wanted to insure it for the $$ I had in it, so I'd be able to get started again for a catastrophic loss. Insurance wanted to base it on replacement cost at like 2x value and the rate.

It's quite a bit different than automobiles but makes a lot more sense IMO. Would certainly make sense for guns, insure your pre ban for $2500, pay for that much coverage.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Back to the firearms valuation discussion: I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a MA insurer to pay $1,800 for a pre-Healy stock M&P15 or a grand for a Gen 2 Glock 22. Lol.

The issue is not "what is reasonable" but "what the contract requires.

"Replacement cost" should mean cost to the person filing the claim to replace the item, not the cost for someone in another state to replace the items.

Generally, with cars, the insurance company uses local market estimates for items not available new but traded on the market (use car sales) and uses retail, rather than wholesale, prices. They do not base the value off the original price, or what someone can buy a similar used car for in another state.

 

[teamRR]

The issue is not "what is reasonable" but "what the contract requires.

"Replacement cost" should mean cost to the person filing the claim to replace the item, not the cost for someone in another state to replace the items.

Generally, with cars, the insurance company uses local market estimates for items not available new but traded on the market (use car sales) and uses retail, rather than wholesale, prices. They do not base the value off the original price, or what someone can buy a similar used car for in another state.

Yep I agree with that.

And similarly your rates will be higher or lower depending where you live.

It all comes out in the wash.

 

[Broc]

All this talk about insurance companies covering guns ... call Eastern, pay $150 and get $40K coverage + ammo and reloading components coverage. Done. Stop being skinflints.

 

[puška m70]

More like 6 if you don't want them touching each other

Yup, the 12 gun safe is more like 4-6 guns if they have pistol grips. The "gun capacity" rating seems to be using thin, non scoped hunting rifles or shotguns as a metric. This has caused a lot of unneccesary scrathing up my guns, get the biggest one you can afford.

 

[T-Unit]

I think I've decided that fire resistant safes aren't really going to do much considering if the fire is big and destructive enough it causes walls and floors to collapse the heat of the debris around the safe is going to last for days. Still going to get a safe, just not one that's fire resistant. Will take the money saved and buy the insurance.

 

[teamRR]

I think I've decided that fire resistant safes aren't really going to do much considering if the fire is big and destructive enough it causes walls and floors to collapse the heat of the debris around the safe is going to last for days. Still going to get a safe, just not one that's fire resistant. Will take the money saved and buy the insurance.

Well that's a rare fire. Most fires are a wall of a house at worst. It's kinda like saying a helmet on a motorcycle is useless, citing worst scenario crashes.

But also, keep in mind depending what you choose, a gun cabinet is like breaking into a file cabinet - even a cheap safe takes a lot more work (or skill or tools).

 

[teamRR]

Yup, the 12 gun safe is more like 4-6 guns if they have pistol grips. The "gun capacity" rating seems to be using thin, non scoped hunting rifles or shotguns as a metric. This has caused a lot of unneccesary scrathing up my guns, get the biggest one you can afford.

Here is actual use ballpark. I figure 6 rifles comfortably, ARs in particular pack nicely the way they balance standing up - I could set a 4th on that right side and the 2 of them there are actually a touch larger than typical being AR10s. There's another pistol gripped AR hidden behind that mini 30, not particularly set in there efficiently, only needed space for 5.

Pretty much all safes give you horrible estimates that way. The benefit of the smaller ones is small rocks fit better and you can move them up (or down) stairs with a 2 wheeler and 2 people reasonably. Sure I bet the next size up is doable too. Myself I'd draw the line if I couldn't move a safe that way, nice to be self sufficient.

 

[Hoover]

I figure if I need more room, I'll buy a second safe. Two smaller safes are easier to move than one and if the day ever comes I downsize I can sell one of the safes.

A 26 rifle capacity safe isn’t as big as you think and that’s as small as I’d recommend.

 

[Bright Spark]

Looking for a small safe, one that doesn't weigh more than me and is fire resistant. I had thought getting anything rated for fire resistance would mean a 400+ lb safe, but doing a search the 12 gun Stack On safe from Shalom Depot looks like it's at a weight me and another can handle moving and is also fire resistant. Build quality seems meh, but as long as it shuts, locks, and doesn't cook what's inside that's all I want.

STACK-ON Siege 12-Gun Fireproof with Electronic Lock Gun Safe, Black HDS5518-30-H1E-21 - The Home Depot

The Siege 12-Gun Electronic Lock Gun Safe is perfect for holding your firearms. It features an adjustable shelf, five 4 in. locking bolts, a carpeted interior and an electronic lock with a back-up key.

www.homedepot.com

I have this one:

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/stack-on-18-gun-beveled-edge-safe-gcm-1918-dx

I love it. Use it every day. Comes with 2 keys
Can configure it the way you want. I'll have it forever. I recommend.

 

[AHM]

Water damage is more of a concern in my mind.

Gore-Tex, FTW.

Seattle Rain Hat

Legendary, award-winning GORE-TEX waterproof protection that's fully seam-taped and tricot lined for durable weather protection.

www.outdoorresearch.com

 

[chris_1001]

Water damage is more of a concern in my mind.

Do you have your boating insurance up to date as well!