House Review of S2284 (formerly SB 2265)

[NFD9]

If I wasn't on vacation I would dig out the case where the SJC defined what dangerous weapons are and proceeded to say that just about anything was dangerous if used that way and that a jury could determine this, but things intended to do harm are per se dangerous. Maybe someone else can dig it up, but it's the one that defined shod foot as dangerous IIRC.

That's the answer you seek. It's not defined in law. That would make the state bound by what the law said and not flexible to make it up as they go.

Yes, I get your point that the PO could still charge you with the catch all of "carrying a DW".
But now that it is not classified as ammo, it would be no different then carrying a can of bee spray...statutorily. And unlike a shod foot, blackjack or knife (which could kill very easily) A spray from pepper spray would be a hard sell to a jury that it was meant to (or could) be as lethal. IMHO


P.S Have a nice vacation

 

[jefftk]

Yes, I get your point that the PO could still charge you with the catch all of "carrying a DW".
But now that it is not classified as ammo, it would be no different then carrying a can of bee spray...statutorily. And unlike a shod foot, blackjack or knife (which could kill very easily) A spray from pepper spray would be a hard sell to a jury that it was meant to (or could) be as lethal. IMHO


P.S Have a nice vacation

Just because its not lethal doesn't mean it couldn't be "dangerous". And I don't doubt that the can of bee spray could be considered a "dangerous weapon" by the court as well if it was used to spray a person.

 

[NFD9]

I don't know that there is a specific definition in the MGLs, but I know of one guy who got charged with "assault and battery with a dangerous weapon" because he was wearing a ring on his finger.

I can understand (not that I agree with) that charge, but I couldn't believe someone getting a DW (possession/carrying) charge for just wearing a ring, unless they were (or believed to be) the aggressor and not the defender in an A&B case.

 

[exo]

I can understand (not that I agree with) that charge, but I couldn't believe someone getting a DW (possession/carrying) charge for just wearing a ring, unless they were (or believed to be) the aggressor and not the defender in an A&B case.

It's MA. They'll charge you with all sorts of things and hope that something sticks.

 

[NFD9]

Just because its not lethal doesn't mean it couldn't be "dangerous". And I don't doubt that the can of bee spray could be considered a "dangerous weapon" by the court as well if it was used to spray a person.

Yes...I get it, no random spraying people with bee spray!
But, I think your confusing my question with using (pepper spray) and just possession. Do you think someone would be charged with carrying a DW for just walking across a campus with a can of bee spray in their purse, I don't!
And, I don't feel the charge would stick if it was used in self defense to stop a rape or mugging either, IMHO.

 

[jasons]

I can understand (not that I agree with) that charge, but I couldn't believe someone getting a DW (possession/carrying) charge for just wearing a ring, unless they were (or believed to be) the aggressor and not the defender in an A&B case.

Just a friendly disagreement.

 

[jasons]

Yes...I get it, no random spraying people with bee spray! But, I think your confusing my question with using (pepper spray) and just possession. Do you think someone would be charged with carrying a DW for just walking across a campus with a can of bee spray in their purse, I don't! And, I don't feel the charge would stick if it was used in self defense to stop a rape or mugging either, IMHO.

How would anyone know if someone had paper spray (or anything else for that matter) in her purse if she was just walking around campus? Sort of falls under "concealed means concealed" mantra.

 

[NFD9]

How would anyone know if someone had paper spray (or anything else for that matter) in her purse if she was just walking around campus? Sort of falls under "concealed means concealed" mantra.

So true, so very true!

Just trying to figure out if it was to get spotted, since pepper spray is not ammo, and (IF) it is not specifically defined as a dangerous weapon, then (IMHO) it is no different then waliking across campus with shoes on your feet or a can of bee spray in your bag. I have had conversations with current LEO's on this (one even contacted a UMASS Lieutenant PO on my behalf) and they all said it would come down to a possesion of ammo on campus charge. With it not being ammo now...
If someone can prove me wrong, please do...I have a vested interest.
TIA

 

[rlee]

The pepper spray stuff is in section 20, which takes effect on January 1, 2015.

The bill itself lists the dates. Some sections take effect immediately, others go out as far as 2021.

Section 22, which deals with pepper spray, is not mentioned in the "takes effect" sections. Does that mean that it takes effect immediately(emergency preamble) or after 90 days?

If there's no date specified it takes effect immediately due to the emergency preamble.

Yes, the bill removes pepper spray from the definition of ammunition. (Section 20.)
Section 22 adds a whole bunch of stuff regulating pepper spay itself:

The Joint Rule 11E Addendum sets out the (corrected?) effective dates of the sections.
Sections 20 and 22 are omitted, meaning that the pepper spray changes take effect immediately.

 

[JCV]

The Joint Rule 11E Addendum sets out the (corrected?) effective dates of the sections.
Sections 20 and 22 are omitted, meaning that the pepper spray changes take effect immediately.

soooooo as of today or tomorrow non licensed people can buy/carry/posess pepper spray in MA?

 

[rlee]

Possession yes.
But I doubt that ammo sellers will start selling to non-FID holders without learning all the rules.
It's also not clear how they could ensure that a buyer meets all of the requirements.
Especially out-of-state buyers.

 

[rlee]

Here's the full text of the law, including corrections.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/SessionLaws/Acts/2014/Chapter284

 

[Quiet]

The Joint Rule 11E Addendum sets out the (corrected?) effective dates of the sections.
Sections 20 and 22 are omitted, meaning that the pepper spray changes take effect immediately.

Thank you for posting this, I have been looking for an answer for a couple of days. The origianl dates for pepper spray sections were inconsistent so I feared that unlicensed possession was legalized immediately as "defensive spray" but it was still defined as ammo for a few months.

Possession yes.
But I doubt that ammo sellers will start selling to non-FID holders without learning all the rules.
It's also not clear how they could ensure that a buyer meets all of the requirements.
Especially out-of-state buyers.

Yes, I have already talked with one dealer about this, asked if he was stocking up to sell it and he just said "After his lawyers have a good look at it, there's too much to risk".

Why should a dealer be concerned about the purchaser (other than MassPrudence)? Was there something in the law about them needing to verify anything other than over 18 or FID if under? I thought the restrictions/penalties were all about possession.

- - - Updated - - -

soooooo as of today or tomorrow non licensed people can buy/carry/posess pepper spray in MA?

Good question. I would have assumed when the governator finished signing his name, but there could be special Commiewealth rules about what "immediately" means.

 

[jdgill]

Possession yes.
But I doubt that ammo sellers will start selling to non-FID holders without learning all the rules.
It's also not clear how they could ensure that a buyer meets all of the requirements.
Especially out-of-state buyers.

Email from Carl at FSGUNS today says: "As of today, you don't need a license or permit to buy pepper spray; 18+"

If Carl advertised that in his email, I'd take it to the bank

 

[rlee]

...

Why should a dealer be concerned about the purchaser (other than MassPrudence)? Was there something in the law about them needing to verify anything other than over 18 or FID if under? I thought the restrictions/penalties were all about possession.

I was thinking that all those requirements were for the seller, but I think you're right. They're for possession and all the dealer has to check is age. I still have to read it again to make sure there's no gotcha's buried in there.

 

[Coyote33]

The statute only refers to the affidavit's presence. It doesn't indicate how to handle not signing it and for what reason. We need to see how FRB handles the exact language and how this will work exactly. It's a TBD for right now but a person who doesn't sign it because they reported something stolen in the last 5 years is likely not to be denied, especially with the free pass provision elsewhere. It's something we will be happy to litigate.

Gun Laws

It might be time to call them and tell them to update their "immediate revisions"!

soooooo as of today or tomorrow non licensed people can buy/carry/posess pepper spray in MA?

Possession yes.
But I doubt that ammo sellers will start selling to non-FID holders without learning all the rules.
It's also not clear how they could ensure that a buyer meets all of the requirements.
Especially out-of-state buyers.

Email from Carl at FSGUNS today says: "As of today, you don't need a license or permit to buy pepper spray; 18+"

If Carl advertised that in his email, I'd take it to the bank

Well, now all those wives, girlfriends, daughters, and the rest who have been carrying all along won't have to worry about breaking the law any more.

 

[rlee]

...
Well, now all those wives, girlfriends, daughters, and the rest who have been carrying all along won't have to worry about breaking the law any more.

I told my daughter that it was now legal to carry the OC, but that she shouldn't admit that she'd done it before.
Her response was that she wouldn't admit that she always has it when she comes into Mass.

 

[mikelawtown]

Now have to figure out which one to buy since I have never looked into any kind of spray

 

[Coyote33]

Sabre seems pretty good.

 

[Knuckle Dragger]

You laugh, but thats exactly the kind of gun the BPD has been seizing lately.
https://twitter.com/bostonpolice/status/495241664563535873/photo/1

They got another one:

http://bpdnews.com/news/2014/8/12/o...est-one-and-recover-illegal-gun-in-dorchester

And they got yet another antique off the streets. This looks like the same gun as above, but it's not.

Is this why we need one gun a month? Massachusetts gun owners are buying antiques and diverting them to the black market?

Can anyone identify this gun and tell us what it's worth?

 

[426wedge]

I think it is a Iver Johnson. Don't know the value, if any.

 

[browncoat]

I think it is a Iver Johnson. Don't know the value, if any.

Iver Johnson? I think you mean high capacity assault pistol.

 

[jefftk]

Can anyone identify this gun and tell us what it's worth?

Not sure the make, could be iver johnson like someone said.

I've seen similar looking top-breaks in gun stores occasionally, usually for pretty cheap - maybe somewhere around $200 IIRC.

 

[GlockJock]

Now have to figure out which one to buy since I have never looked into any kind of spray

This stuff is absolutely nasty, and is in my (also my daughters', and my wife's) pockets always....

 

[vietboy1st]

So where can i read all the new regulation of the new bill that devil signed into law? Thank you

 

[Len-2A Training]

So where can i read all the new regulation of the new bill that devil signed into law? Thank you

Right from the horse's posterior!

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/SessionLaws/Acts/2014/Chapter284

 

[426wedge]

Iver Johnson? I think you mean high capacity assault pistol.

Yeah, it's big for sure. Did not mean for that to happen...

 

[Jbarila]

So are LEO's exempt from the lists also or just the AWB?

 

[Mike-Mike]

So are LEO's exempt from the lists also or just the AWB?

Looks like just the AWB per the new law.

 

[Coyote33]

At our club meeting tonight, some of the recent legislation was spoken on.

One somewhat vocal member:
"Anybody hear what came of the Sunday hunting bill?"

Someone else"
"Yeah, it failed."


"WHAT?" "How could that be?"



I kid you not.