House Review of S2284 (formerly SB 2265)

[jasons]

I think they would have to add Mil Basic training to the list of approved courses.

And yet they didn't......

 

[milktree]

I'm having trouble keeping track of all the changes too, can someone confirm/edit this list of changes to gun rights?
I'm deliberately omitting anything that is about mental health or suicide prevention that doesn't apply to 2nd amendment issues.

I'm also updating this post as I learn/figure out more details.

+ LTC-B gone
- FID cards no longer "shall issue", but
+ burden of proof for LTC or FID denials is now on the Chief
+ suspension, revocations, and restrictions can be challenged in court with the burden of proof being on the Chief of Police
+ "suitability" language changed to "prohibited person" language for both FID and LTC
- FA10 gone. "universal background checks" through a web thingie which must be done at the time of the transfer (or before?)
+ 90 day grace period language removed for renewals, receipt of application is sufficient until renewal is complete
+ olympic style handguns are now exempted from the EOPS and AG's lists
+ FID no longer required for pepper spray for 18+, 15-17 can have it with an FID
+/- safety courses must distribute suicide handout provided by the state
+ people seeking mental health cannot be deemed prohibited because of doing so
+ C&R holders can buy any C&R from dealers regardless of the EOPS and AG's lists -- doesn't take effect until 1/1/2021, 6.5 years from now!
+ reporting a stolen or lost gun cannot make someone a prohibited person
+ Veterans get 180 instead of 90 days to become licenced
+/- Active duty military personnel no longer have to take a safety course (kind of irrelevant)
- off duty and retired law enforcement not subject to the AWB
+ trainers can provide guns to juniors with parental consent
+ Juniors can apply for an FID at 14 and receive it at 15 (couldn't apply before 15 before)
- penalties for improper storage increased dramatically.
- increased penalties for possession of a gun on school grounds (possible jail increased from 0-1 to 0-2 years)
+ explicit language that allows for LTC/FID applications/renewals to be submitted by mail



Edited to add the green parts

 

[pastera]

Hey Deval,

For once,
Understand and
Consider the
Knowledge that
You
On all accounts
Underestimated us gun owner!

 

[Horrible]

Thank you Mr. Patrick for your "favorable disposal." We will be disposing of you soon, thank, God.

Favorable disposal of Gov Patrick set for January. Even more favorable disposal if he stays out of government.

 

[jasons]

I'm having trouble keeping track of all the changes too, can someone confirm/edit this list of changes to gun rights?
I'm deliberately omitting anything that is about mental health or suicide prevention that doesn't apply to 2nd amendment issues.

+ LTC-B gone
- FID cards no longer "shall issue", but
+ burden of proof for LTC or FID denials is now on the Chief
+ "suitability" language changed for "prohibited person" language for both FID and LTC
- FA10 gone. "universal background checks" through a web thingie which must be done at the time of the transfer (or before?)
+ 90 day grace period language removed for renewals, receipt of application is sufficient until renewal is complete
+ olympic style handguns are now exempted from the EOPS and AG's lists
+ FID no longer required for pepper spray for 18+, 15-17 can have it with an FID
+/- safety courses must distribute suicide handout provided by the state
+ people seeking mental health cannot be deemed prohibited because of doing so
+ C&R holders can buy any C&R from dealers regardless of the EOPS and AG's lists
+ reporting a stolen or lost gun cannot make someone a prohibited person
+ Veterans get 180 instead of 90 days to become licenced
+ Veterans no longer have to take a safety course
- off duty and retired law enforcement not subject to the AWB


I assume all the "can't sell more than four a year" is unchanged, since I haven't heard anything about it. is that right?

"Veterans no longer have to take a safety course" was discussed above. I don't think it's going to change anything in practice so I would hesitate to call it a plus. (It's arguable that .mil training is not "adequate" for the purposes of MA firearms licensing.)

I would add section 51 (judicial review) to the plus column:

SECTION 51. Paragraph (f) of said section 131 of said chapter 140, as so appearing, is hereby amended by striking out the second paragraph and inserting in place thereof the following paragraph:- Any applicant or holder aggrieved by a denial, revocation, suspension or restriction placed on a license, unless a hearing has previously been held pursuant to chapter 209A, may, within either 90 days after receiving notice of the denial, revocation or suspension or within 90 days after the expiration of the time limit during which the licensing authority shall respond to the applicant or, in the case of a restriction, any time after a restriction is placed on the license pursuant to this section, file a petition to obtain judicial review in the district court having jurisdiction in the city or town in which the applicant filed the application or in which the license was issued. If after a hearing a justice of the court finds that there was no reasonable ground for denying, suspending, revoking or restricting the license and that the petitioner is not prohibited by law from possessing a license, the justice may order a license to be issued or reinstated to the petitioner or may order the licensing authority to remove certain restrictions placed on the license.

 

[milktree]

"Veterans no longer have to take a safety course" was discussed above. I don't think it's going to change anything in practice so I would hesitate to call it a plus. (It's arguable that .mil training is not "adequate" for the purposes of MA firearms licensing.)

I would add section 51 (judicial review) to the plus column:

OK, I added that in green.

+ burden of proof for LTC or FID denials is now on the Chief

but that didn't cover restrictions or revocations.

 

[Mike S]

GOAL says veterans don't need to take a safety class to apply for a license in their list of pluses. Couple of questions:

1) Does this only apply to active service personnel and Nat'l Guard or all veterans?

2) Is this good to apply for LTC-A or only FID?

Actually it applies to active duty military personnel, they have corrected the language in the statement. The change in the law does not affect veterans.

 

[jasons]

but that didn't cover restrictions or revocations.

Also denials and suspensions if you want to be comprehensive.

 

[Mike S]

Here's the latest, corrected info from GOAL It's a little easier to read on their webpage as it loses formatting posting here. http://goal.org/alert-defeat-chapter-180-part2.html

H.4376 One Step From Becoming Law.



Bill awaits Governor Patrick’s Signature.



Dear Members,



First off, we would like to thank you for all of the unprecedented hard work in communicating a strong and clear message to our legislature. Over the last 10 weeks we have overwhelmed state house phone lines, emails and mailboxes and we were heard. In a rapidly evolving legislative climate you did an amazing job staying current and on message.



Going back to the genesis of this fight, Speaker DeLeo’s H.4121, the bill we faced on May 27, 2014 was drastically different from what was passed yesterday. It literally went from being a gun control bill to being a crime control bill. Some of the many anti Second Amendment provisions that we stopped included a renewed ban on modern sporting rifles and one gun a month legislation. There are no new magazine or gun bans passed in this legislation.



We were also able to pass many good provisions including a fix of the 90-day grace period in regard to license renewals, elimination of LTC B’s, and legalization of pepper spray.



We were successful in stopping many negative and onerous articles and amendments.

The original bill would have criminalized private sales of firearms between licensed individuals.
This section was struck and private sales remain legal.
The original bill would have applied a “suitability” clause to the issuance of FID cards. This was modified so that the licensing authority now has to prove in court that the applicant is unsuitable. For the first time ever in MA, the burden of proof is upon the licensing authority.
The original bill would have made an FID applicant list a “reason” for applying. This was struck from the legislation.
The original bill would have given the licensing authority the ability to place restrictions on FID cards. This was struck from the legislation.
The original bill had very onerous language regarding confiscated/seized firearms. We were successful in getting that removed.
The original bill would have drastically increased penalties for improper firearms storage, we were successful in removing this language.
The original bill would have granted even more power to the MA Chiefs of Police and EOPSS to determine what unsuitability is. We were successful in removing this language
The original bill would have penalized licensees for not renewing early. We were able to remove this language.
The original bill would have given the MA Attorney General unprecedented power over which firearms can be purchased in MA. (EOPSS list). We were successful in removing this language.
The original bill would have given the Colonel of the State Police power to define the curriculum for firearms safety training programs and to determine suitability of trained instructors. We were successful in removing this language.
The original bill would have forced hunter’s safety courses and firearms safety courses to include a module on suicide prevention. This was amended so that the state will now provide hand out materials for the teachers.
We were able to defeat a Senate amendment which would have added one gun a month legislation.
We were able to defeat a Senate amendment which would have added a renewed AWB ban

H.4376 Accomplished many positive things for Massachusetts gun owners including:

Juniors:

Critical training language correction for juniors, this now allows trainers to provide firearms to junior shooters and hunters with parental consent
Allow juniors to apply for their FID card a year early (age 14) and receive their card at 15.

Pepper Spray:

Person over the age of 18 will no longer need an FID card to purchase pepper spray
15-17 year old can still possess – but must have an FID card

FID:

Chiefs must first petition the court to deny someone his/her FID card.
Because it is in the courts, it gives GOAL and others the ability to track what Chiefs are doing

Both licenses:

The term "prohibited person" is now being used for both licenses – instead of "suitable"
This change in the language provides a much need change in framework around whom is prohibited
The 90 day grace period - license renewal issue was fixed. Gun owners will now receive a receipt upon renewal, which makes the license valid until the new license is received.

Mental Health:

Added language so that people who voluntary seek mental health help will not be listed as a prohibited person

Olympic-style Handguns:

There will be exemptions for the sale of Olympic-style handguns in the Commonwealth
They were previously not legal to transfer by licensed dealers in the Commonwealth.

Curios and Relic Collectors:

Collectors can now purchase handguns and firearms that may not comply with the approved firearms roster

Online portal:

Created online portal for face-to-face transfers, preserving private sales

LTC:

The Class B License was eliminated; going forward there is only one License to Carry. (LTC).
Chiefs now have to put denials in writing
For the first time, gun owners can appeal their LTC restrictions in District Court - now the burden of proof is on the police chief to defend the denial or restriction in District Court and in writing

Confiscation:

We added language that if your firearms get confiscated that the licensing authority shall at that time inform the person in writing of their ability to transfer their firearms to an independent licensed individual

Lost & Stolen Firearm:

GOAL put in language so that a person who, in good faith, reports their firearm as lost or stolen – this shall not make them considered a prohibited person – period.

Military Personnel:

We extended the time period an active duty military member has to become licensed, or renew their license from 90 to 180 days.
We exempted active duty military members from having to take the mandatory gun safety training classes

Once again, we would like to thank all of you for all of the hard work. With your help we changed the tenor of the bill away from being an all out assault on lawful gun owners.

 

[milktree]

Here's the latest, corrected info from GOAL It's a little easier to read on their webpage as it loses formatting posting here. http://goal.org/alert-defeat-chapter-180-part2.html

I saw that, but it's filed up with conditionals and subjunctives, which doesn't make things clear.

"it was going to but it didn't" isn't actually helpful information.

 

[Mike-Mike]

Here's the latest, corrected info from GOAL It's a little easier to read on their webpage as it loses formatting posting here. http://goal.org/alert-defeat-chapter-180-part2.html

Thanks for your hard work Mike.

 

[1903Collector]

So a C&R actually might be worth getting again?

 

[jasons]

Here's the latest, corrected info from GOAL It's a little easier to read on their webpage as it loses formatting posting here. http://goal.org/alert-defeat-chapter-180-part2.html

You might want to clarify this part too: "The original bill would have drastically increased penalties for improper firearms storage, we were successful in removing this language."

The penalties for improper storage were increased (I would say drastically.)

SECTION 64. Section 131L of said chapter 140, as so appearing, is hereby amended by striking out subsections (b) to (d), inclusive, and inserting in place thereof the following 3 subsections:-

(b) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a firearm, rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon, by a fine of not less than $1000 nor more than $7,500 or by imprisonment for not more than 1½ years or by both such fine and imprisonment and, in the case of a large capacity weapon or machine gun, by a fine of not less than $2,000 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than 1½ years nor more than 12 years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(c) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a rifle or shotgun that is not a large capacity weapon and the weapon was stored or kept in a place where a person younger than 18 years of age who does not possess a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B may have access without committing an unforeseeable trespass, by a fine of not less than $2,500 nor more than $15,000 or by imprisonment for not less than 1½ years nor more than 12 years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

(d) A violation of this section shall be punished, in the case of a rifle or shotgun that is a large capacity weapon, firearm or machine gun that was stored or kept in a place where a person younger than 18 years of age may have access without committing an unforeseeable trespass, by a fine of not less than $10,000 nor more than $20,000 or by imprisonment for not less than 4 years nor more than 15 years or by both such fine and imprisonment.

Subsection (b) is currently: "a fine of not less than $500 nor more than $5,000 or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment, and in the case of a large capacity weapon or machine gun, by a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

Subsection (c) is currently: "a fine of not less than $1,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than one year nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

Subsection (d) is currently: "a fine of not less than $5,000 nor more than $10,000 or by imprisonment for not less than two and one-half years, nor more than ten years, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

 

[Friday]

So a C&R actually might be worth getting again?

yup.

My renewal just came this week.

Pack and Postal is only 11 mins away from home.

 

[doctorbossman]

Thanks milktree... this is helpful.
But a few questions regarding OC/peppersprary

+ FID no longer required for pepper spray for 18+, 15-17 can have it with an FID

- penalties for improper storage increased dramatically.

Is OC/pepper spray still considered ammunition? If it is then doesn't that mean leaving pepper spray in my car's glove box or unlocked on my night stand is illegal/improper storage?

 

[Whiskeyjim]

Sorry if this has been asked, but I'm curious what's supposed to happen now with the yet-to-be-defined "web portal thingy".
Will this replace FA10 or is it in addition to FA10?
Will you need to use the "portal" to run an instant background check on yourself when you complete a build, bring home a long gun you bought out of state, or make a C&R acquisition?
What information gets recorded?
What's the alternate way to conduct a legal FTF transfer in the event of power outage, or in areas with no internet service or disruption in network coverage, or between persons without access to electronic gizmos, or between those with neither the inclination to buy them nor learn how to use them?

 

[Ben Cartwright SASS]

I think but not sure that the web portal will still allow for "registrations" so if you get a C&R from another state you would use that.

Yes a C&R is worth getting if you like older guns or guns such as the Winchester Commemorative s that are on the C&R List and have to get them from a dealer or if we lose the whole web portal when it doesn't do what they want and force all sales and purchases through dealers, That possibility is why I wrote it up and pushed Jim Timilty to put it in.

 

[MaynardDad]

Thanks milktree... this is helpful.
But a few questions regarding OC/peppersprary



Is OC/pepper spray still considered ammunition? If it is then doesn't that mean leaving pepper spray in my car's glove box or unlocked on my night stand is illegal/improper storage?

I don't know whether it's still ammunition, but even if it is, that would not stop you from keeping it anywhere in your car. The requirements to keep ammo in a locked container only applies when stores in a structure. You can have ammo rolling around on the floor of your car if you wish (as long as you don't make it accessible to someone without a license).

 

[SBR]

Does anyone have a link to the final bill as it will be voted on ???

Thanks

 

[Whiskeyjim]

I'm planning on applying for my C&R soon.

 

[milktree]

Thanks milktree... this is helpful.
But a few questions regarding OC/peppersprary



Is OC/pepper spray still considered ammunition? If it is then doesn't that mean leaving pepper spray in my car's glove box or unlocked on my night stand is illegal/improper storage?

My understanding (which obviously isn't complete, or I wouldn't ask these questions) is that pepper/OC spray/mace is no longer considered ammunition.

The improper storage language is for guns.

I think. There's a snot-ton of words in that legislation, most of which are "replaces the third paragraph through 'sometimes' with the following..."

It's wicked convoluted.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry if this has been asked, but I'm curious what's supposed to happen now with the yet-to-be-defined "web portal thingy".
Will this replace FA10 or is it in addition to FA10?
Will you need to use the "portal" to run an instant background check on yourself when you complete a build, bring home a long gun you bought out of state, or make a C&R acquisition?
What information gets recorded?
What's the alternate way to conduct a legal FTF transfer in the event of power outage, or in areas with no internet service or disruption in network coverage, or between persons without access to electronic gizmos, or between those with neither the inclination to buy them nor learn how to use them?

The to-be-defined web-portal-thingie will replace the paper FA10 and eFA10 completely.

You know, for universal background checks. To make us all safer, especially the children (but actually especially the criminals)

 

[MaynardDad]

Yes a C&R is worth getting if you like older guns

Are there any Massachusetts laws that prevent you, being a 03FFL, from importing non-milsurp C&R guns from other countries yourself, either by bringing them home in the suitcase or by having them shipped directly to you?

I'm interested in getting a C&R for that purpose. It looks straightforward at the federal level.

 

[Quiet]

ehhh, not buying it.

Up to a few weeks ago there were several people here saying how we're all just wasting our time.
Rallies are pointless - legislators don't care, media doesn't care.
Phone calls are pointless - they don't listen.
Emails are pointless - they just delete them.
Public hearings are pointless - dog & pony shows.
That attitude was the MA legislators just don't give a shit and will do whatever they and Bobby want. We were going to get steamrolled just like 1998.

This may not be the glorious victory everyone wants, but we sure as shit didn't get steamrolled. The results seem to indicate to me that the rallies, emails, and phone calls absolutely were effective this time around. Seems to me that we are not running out of juice, rather, quite the opposite.

Yes. The fear mongers, haterz and general whiners here move the goalposts more than moms demanding action. No matter what gets accomplished it's not enough and is minimized. Every minor setback has JBT with their boots on our necks. They make as much sense as the moms do, and they have a much political awareness as the open carry idiots in Texas..

You are absolutey correct - Now what are you doing about it?

I'll tell you exactly what he's going to do about it....

Dude I'm not the one pushing GOAL so I'm doing nothing about it
only making a point

Absolutely fricken nothing but sit on his keyboard and take jabs at everybody who accomplished saving his fricken rights.

Favorable disposal of Gov Patrick set for January. Even more favorable disposal if he stays out of government.

Not a chance. Ambassador Patrick on deck. I'm guessing it won't be Ireland though. Where do you suppose he'd like to travel? That's the one.

 

[lagrangian]

With respect to LTC changes, section 51 of the bill reads:

SECTION 51. Paragraph (f) of said section 131 of said chapter 140, as so appearing, is hereby amended by striking out the second paragraph and inserting in place thereof the following paragraph:- Any applicant or holder aggrieved by a denial, revocation, suspension or restriction placed on a license, unless a hearing has previously been held pursuant to chapter 209A, may, within either 90 days after receiving notice of the denial, revocation or suspension or within 90 days after the expiration of the time limit during which the licensing authority shall respond to the applicant or, in the case of a restriction, any time after a restriction is placed on the license pursuant to this section, file a petition to obtain judicial review in the district court having jurisdiction in the city or town in which the applicant filed the application or in which the license was issued. If after a hearing a justice of the court finds that there was no reasonable ground for denying, suspending, revoking or restricting the license and that the petitioner is not prohibited by law from possessing a license, the justice may order a license to be issued or reinstated to the petitioner or may order the licensing authority to remove certain restrictions placed on the license.

Then going to the end of the bill we see in section 117 that section 51 goes into effect on Jan 1, 2015:

SECTION 117. Sections 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 26, 28, 31, 32, 37, 39, 40, 41, 43, 44, 45, 46, 49, 51, 52, 54, 57, 58, 59, 60, 64, 65, 67, 73, 74, 76, 77, 79, 80, 84, 88, 91, 92, 94, 100, 101, and 102 shall take effect on January 1, 2015

So it looks to not-a-lawyer me that the changes go into effect next year, not in 2021.

 

[rchap36]

Yes. The fear mongers, haterz and general whiners here move the goalposts more than moms demanding action. No matter what gets accomplished it's not enough and is minimized. Every minor setback has JBT with their boots on our necks. They make as much sense as the moms do, and they have a much political awareness as the open carry idiots in Texas..


I'll tell you exactly what he's going to do about it....

Absolutely fricken nothing but sit on his keyboard and take jabs at everybody who accomplished saving his fricken rights.




Not a chance. Ambassador Patrick on deck. I'm guessing it won't be Ireland though. Where do you suppose he'd like to travel? That's the one.

First you should read the the whole thing 2nd I never asked you to do anything also if you are so happy with GOAL go work for them

 

[yanici]

Not a chance. Ambassador Patrick on deck. I'm guessing it won't be Ireland though. Where do you suppose he'd like to travel? That's the one.

How about ambassador to Libya or one of those Ebola infested countries.

 

[milktree]

Are there any Massachusetts laws that prevent you, being a 03FFL, from importing non-milsurp C&R guns from other countries yourself, either by bringing them home in the suitcase or by having them shipped directly to you?

I'm interested in getting a C&R for that purpose. It looks straightforward at the federal level.

There aren't any Massachusetts laws preventing that, but I suspect there are a ton more Federal laws and ATF regulations that make it *way* harder than your note suggests.

 

[Coyote33]

... Here is a good place to call in to, and get some air play to this crisis:
Both of these shows are pretty open to calls, and to discuss gun topics. Bring up the whole irony thing about giving more powers of discretion/suitability (aka favoritism/bigotry/bullying), and the hypocrisy of giving them AWB access, while taking away our rights:

3 PM to 6 PM
Jordan Levy
Call: Studio Line (508) 755-0058
Email: [email protected]
or [email protected]

They are going to be discussing the gun bill this afternoon. Make SURE to get in a bunch of mentions of northeastshooters.com and comm2a.org when you are saying how horrible it is they are passing more terrible infringements on our CIVIL RIGHTS!!!!!!

Also mention Brad Wyatt and Susannah Lee, who are LIBERTY candidates!!!!


LISTEN LIVE ONLINE HERE:
http://www.iheart.com/live/News-Tal...html&pname=1262&campid=play_bar&autoplay=true

 

[milktree]

What's the alternate way to conduct a legal FTF transfer in the event of power outage, or in areas with no internet service or disruption in network coverage, or between persons without access to electronic gizmos, or between those with neither the inclination to buy them nor learn how to use them?

Don't be silly. You should know by now that rights are only for rich people.

 

[jasons]

Yes. The fear mongers, haterz and general whiners here move the goalposts more than moms demanding action. No matter what gets accomplished it's not enough and is minimized. Every minor setback has JBT with their boots on our necks. They make as much sense as the moms do, and they have a much political awareness as the open carry idiots in Texas..

First you should read the the whole thing 2nd I never asked you to do anything also if you are so happy with GOAL go work for them

Both of you (and others) need to stay on topic. Discuss the bill or go away.