Heller Affirmed! (Discuss Supreme Court Decision here)

I've only read about 2/3 of the way through the majority opinion so far and one thing (of many) that jumped out was that the 2nd ammendment was designed to prevent a situation where the rulers could ban guns from all but a select few, or their appointed militia/thugs. Scalia uses Charles II, and James II as an example. I would hope that including this in the decision bolsters the case against local police chiefs having licensing discretion, as they're no more an elected official than James II.


“After the Heller ruling, as before, approximately 80 Americans will continue to die from guns every day. Our weak or non-existent gun laws contribute to the thousands of senseless gun deaths and injuries in this country that occur each year. We must continue to fight for sensible gun laws to help protect our families and our communities.”

I know that applying logic to the Brady Campaign is a bad idea, but if 80 Americans die both before and after the ruling, aren't they admitting that the DC ban didn't make a difference?
 
WBZradio reports gun maker stocks on the rise. If the market likes the ruling, it must be good for America!!
 
ok, sorry to change subject slightly, but i just saw on cnn about the ruling by the supreme court. They then showed Obama's view on guns, and it said he wanted to ban assault weapons. Does this include ar15? Reason I ask is because if he bans them, I want to get one this year. And if he does ban them, what happens to the ones people own? Do they get to keep them.

Pretty presumptuous of you to assume that that POS will be elected. That is the only way that he can try to "ban assault weapons."
 
Anyone else reading the brief, some hilarious lines:

Faced with this clear historical usage, JUSTICE STEVENS resorts to the bizarre argument that because the word “to” is not included before“bear” (whereas it is included before “petition” in the First Amendment), the unitary meaning of “to keep and bear” is established.

Bizarre, hahaha
 
Does it bother anyone that but for one more liberal judge, the constitution could have been re-written today by 5 liberal judges?



I am still celebrating!! but...

+1 Celebrating, but... Make no mistake. This was an important battle to win, but the war to protect our country and each individual's freedom is far from over. I'll take a moment to savor this victory, then hunker down in the trenches, pass the ammunition, and continue the fight.
 
This is not as good as it first seems...

“The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity.”

“Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation.”

“Thus, we do not read the Second Amendment to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for any sort of confrontation, just as we do not read the First Amendment to protect the right of citizens to speak for any purpose.”

These quotes are from Scalia's opinion. This does not bode well for a permanent relief from an AWB or any number of other f'd up and ridiculous restrictions.
 
ok, sorry to change subject slightly, but i just saw on cnn about the ruling by the supreme court. They then showed Obama's view on guns, and it said he wanted to ban assault weapons. Does this include ar15? Reason I ask is because if he bans them, I want to get one this year. And if he does ban them, what happens to the ones people own? Do they get to keep them.

How can anyone speculate about a ban that doesn't exist and doesn't even have a seed yet for a president that hasn't been (and might not be) elected yet? That's reaching a bit much.

IMO if you want to buy one you should plan on doing it anyways, regardless of who the standing president is going to be. It's distinctly possible that given a worst case scenario McCain could be just as much of a threat WRT an AWB re-attempt, although frankly the odds of an AWB renewal in the next 4 years or so are pretty slim, but I wouldn't count it out entirely.

Another thing is ammo and everything else only gets more expensive. So if you buy it later it will probably cost more. I'll eat my shoe if the prices don't go up (or at least pretend to chew on it) for 10 seconds, but given
our shit currency and other economic factors, that all leads to your dollar buying less down the road. If you can't afford the gun buy ammo or reloading components for it.... those areas seem to be getting hit the hardest every year.

-Mike
 
the SCOTUS has said that the DC gun ban is Un-Constitutional....

Well the US Constitution applies to EVERYONE in EVERY state IN THE US of A.

Maybe the quick answer is that now the "DC gun ban is Un-Constitutional" in "EVERY state IN THE US of A."

Of course the DC gun ban didn't apply anywhere but in DC.

In a slightly more expansive sense, the SC says the right to keep arms by individuals is protected from laws passed by Congress (not state legislature).

We will only know after some yet unknown case, whether that right also protects us from laws by state legislatures -- probably via some application of the 14th Amendment.
 
As an emboldened ideological extremist, I ham happy today. The 5-4 split is a warning, and a reminder that freedom always hangs on a slender thread. But a big hurdle has been crossed.

The issue of incorporation remains unresolved, as do others, only because they were not required to be addressed in this ruling. The conditions for incorporation are good, though, and the matter will surely appear before lower courts all over the country as specific local and state restrictions are challenged.

Yes, it's been a good day. I think I'll go fishing.
 
As far as Mass goes I would think this won't necessarily help in getting a Class A with no restrictions but if you get denied from getting a LTC completely this would give you grounds to challenge it. They said you should be able to have a handgun in your home if you are not a felon or mentally unstable, so an argument could be made that the law should be changed for an FID to allow you to purchase any handgun for use in the home. Then the discretionary decision of the chiefs would only apply to being allowed to concealed carry not ownership. A far cry from NH and Vermont but a lot better than now.
 
It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.

The Supreme Court needs to do some research on what it is exactly that has always won wars - and still wins wars. That is infantry on the ground. There hasn't been any army yet that was able to win a war exclusively with tanks and planes. Our very own army and Marines are finding out in Iraq and Afghanistan that all the high tech weaponry and satellites, tanks, and planes - still won't keep your ass from getting shot by or blown up by a truly determined adversary.

The American Revolutionary war was won by........ men with firearms.

The American Civil War was won by ...... men with firearms.

WW1 was won by................ massive numbers of men with firearms.


WW2 was won by.......... massive numbers of men with firearms.

Korea was fought to a stalemate by........ men with firearms.

Vietnam was fought by......... men with firearms.


Both of the Iraq wars were largely won by overwhelming firepower and high tech weaponry - the ultimate outcome of those battles were (in my opinion) not largely determined by men with rifles. There is one problem with using that as an all encompassing example ....... Iraq was largely a desert war.
Like the British, Americans and Germans fighting in North Africa during WW2 - the outcome of those battles were more determined by planes, tanks and artillery than men with rifles.

Desert warfare is not typical of most modern or ancient warfare and should not be used as the determining factor as to whether individual men with rifles will have an outcome on a battle.

Most of the US is forests or varied country - not deserts. Unless you are going to fight a war in the plains or the western deserts - individuals with firearms would still be the determining factor in any war that would be fought in the eastern portion of the country and the most western portions of the country.

So the argument that individuals or militia cannot stand up to a "modern" army is BULLSHIT. But it keeps coming up. It is largely the anti's I think who like to argue this point because they want to use this as a reason to do an end run around anybody who might argue that firearms still have value as a militia weapon - by discrediting the very idea of a militia as valid military force in modern warfare.

Again I repeat - the idea that a militia is not still valid in modern warfare is BULLSHIT and should be pounded down just as hard as the arguments that individuals should not own firearms for their own self protection.
 
Calsdad - WWII was actually ended through the dropping of the atomic bomb which on its own saved thousands of American lives. IMHO sadly, with today's rules-of-engagement, young men and women are still needlessly sent to their death as "ground forces" when, with today's technology, not a single life has to be lost.
 
Score one run for the home team!

It definitely isn't "Game Over"

Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

(07-290.pdf page 54)

I expect the commies to extend the laws to make as many people as possible as "Felons" or "Mentally Ill", or otherwise ineligible.

I also expect the grabbers to extend the "sensitive places" to include as much real estate as they can.

And those are just two plays that come to mind.
 
As you can see, this ruling is not to be the panacea we would like it to be;

Washington Mayor Adrian Fenty said he was disappointed in the ruling, but he will give the district's police department 21 days to implement a process for registering handguns. It still will be illegal to carry handguns outside the home, and all pistols must be registered with police.
(http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/06/26/scotus.guns/index.html)

The fight continues...
 
If you asked the MA courts to interpret the MA Constitution on that point, I think you'd be pretty dissapointed. They would just say the "common" defense wasn't an individual right, but collective. But with the new ruling you can challenge MA law based on the US Constitution which rules over all states.

Yeah, if the 2nd is held to be incorporated against the states by the 14th Amendment, then that MA interpretation could fall. Right now, that remains up in the air. The next 2nd A. cases will almost certainly take on that issue, and yes, it will probably be applied against the states. Still, that issue is one of the three key ones that remains in the air.
 
I expect the commies to extend the laws to make as many people as possible as "Felons" or "Mentally Ill", or otherwise ineligible.

I also expect the grabbers to extend the "sensitive places" to include as much real estate as they can.

And those are just two plays that come to mind.

This isn't news, they've been trying to do that stuff right along. Hell, even
the NRA was involved in it, to some degree (see NICS improvement act). I
don't think this decision really changes those avenues of attack for the
antis.


-Mike
 
Calsdad - WWII was actually ended through the dropping of the atomic bomb which on its own saved thousands of American lives. IMHO sadly, with today's rules-of-engagement, young men and women are still needlessly sent to their death as "ground forces" when, with today's technology, not a single life has to be lost.

That is technically true but the European axis powers were already defeated by then. Don't forget there were no long range missiles then, the bombers flew out of the Island of Tinian, which had to be taken from the Japanese by the Marines with rifles. So the bomb really just prevented the invasion of Japan, the rifle was more important to the war as a whole.
 
How can I still be surprised by the NYTimes

In this case, not necessarily the NYTimes, but their posted
"comments" section for the Heller report floored me.

Annoying that registration is probably required, but a sampling...

-- The Court sided with irresponsible gun owners. Expect to see more workplace and school shootings.

-- Guns have no place in a civil society except in the hands of a professional military. One day, too, that will become obsolete. What a sad decision.

-- As far as I am concerned this is the beginning of the end for our Constitution, no, maybe that was when the Supremes ruled that George W. Bush was president!!

-- How do we determine who is "honest" before giving them a handgun?

-- Well done, Supreme Court. The definition of a "well regulated militia" now includes street gangs

-- If we want a strict originalist interpretation of the Second Amendment right to "bear arms" then, yes, every American should be permitted to carry a breech-loading musket.
[n.b. poster doesn't know a muzzle from a breech]

---

Just, wow.
 
All I know is that I feel a hell of a lot better than I would have if it went the other way. A battle won, we're still fighting the war though.
 
Calsdad - WWII was actually ended through the dropping of the atomic bomb which on its own saved thousands of American lives. IMHO sadly, with today's rules-of-engagement, young men and women are still needlessly sent to their death as "ground forces" when, with today's technology, not a single life has to be lost.


We are going off topic here but....

The war portion of the against JAPAN was forced to an end by the dropping of two atomic bombs on Japan. Even after the first one - they were still not ready to give up. After the 2nd one was dropped - there were elements of the Japanese govt. and military who wanted to fight on. The Emperor stepped in and said enough.

The estimate of American lives saved by the atomic bombs was more than thousands - it was up to a million.

What do you think they would have fought with if the atomic bombs would not have been enough? Sticks, stones, pitchforks, and rifles.

By arguing against the validity of the militia in modern warfare you are digging your own grave. The antis will use this as an end run around the 2nd amendment in some form or fashion. The fact of the matter is that infantry still wins wars. And infantry can be fought to a standstill by militia or militia like forces - the war in Lebanon last summer showed this - the Hezbollah militia basically fought the Israeli's to a standstill and forced them to back down.

The argument that continually gets brought up the "if only there was enough political willpower we would have won". Well - there wasn't was there? War is an extension of politics by another means. As such all you have to do to win is to fight the enemy to the point where they don't feel like fighting any more. If say for instance an uprising was to happen here in the US - and for sake of argument some states were to secede - and then defend themselves with what amounted to a militia. Do you really think that dropping atomic bombs on them would be a politically viable solution across the rest of the country? Dropping atomic bombs on seceding states to kill off their militia would in all likelihood only engender more states to want to secede from a government that would have now proven itself void of all human decency.

The personal firearm - and the militia - still have a vital role. If you argue otherwise I think you simply don't understand the dynamics of war thru the ages and guerilla war in the modern era. I would suggest you go read
www.d-n-i.net and study up on 4th generation warfare.
 
In this case, not necessarily the NYTimes, but their posted
"comments" section for the Heller report floored me.

Annoying that registration is probably required, but a sampling...

-- The Court sided with irresponsible gun owners. Expect to see more workplace and school shootings.

-- Guns have no place in a civil society except in the hands of a professional military. One day, too, that will become obsolete. What a sad decision.

-- As far as I am concerned this is the beginning of the end for our Constitution, no, maybe that was when the Supremes ruled that George W. Bush was president!!

-- How do we determine who is "honest" before giving them a handgun?

-- Well done, Supreme Court. The definition of a "well regulated militia" now includes street gangs

-- If we want a strict originalist interpretation of the Second Amendment right to "bear arms" then, yes, every American should be permitted to carry a breech-loading musket.
[n.b. poster doesn't know a muzzle from a breech]

---

Just, wow.


Just down right sad...

of course i have the urge to [banana] infront of those morons and tell them to SUCK IT!!!! [rofl]
 
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