Harvard, MA Appleseed Shoot 4/18-19, 2009

[Rockrivr1]

I have a question. At the Appleseed a few weeks ago I noticed that a number of people were shooting scoped rifles. Not that it's a bad thing, but isn't becoming a rifleman predecated on being able to shoot using iron/open sights? Basically in the tradition that seems to be the cornerstone of what the Appleseed movement is all about. I'm just wondering. I missed the Rifleman mark by 13 points using my AR. My schedule has cleared for this upcoming weekend and I'm going to join for both days. I'm going to shoot my AR again, but am thinking of bring my scoped AR this time. Still up in the air about that.

Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this.

 

[Chris]

My understanding is that the Appleseed is to teach people to shoot, not define what they have to own to do it.

That said, any rack grade rifle with military grade ammo should be able to meet the 4MOA requirement to earn your Rifleman.

But, that does not address the eyesight of the shooter. If the shooter has aging eyes and the optics allow him to better see the sights/target, that will be just fine.

In the end, you can put the highest quality whiz-bang gizmo on the top of your rifle. If you can't control your body in its support and operation, it won't make any difference.

If YOU need the optics to see, use them. If you don't, they are not going to improve anything. In fact, it could be a detriment as any amplified optics (anything over a 1X magnification) will magnify your apparent motion as well. I find most shooters with high power scopes tend to fight the natural motion of their body far more than those that shoot with iron sights. Given the time limits, this will cause you trouble.

Get your position right, follow the fundamentals, and get into a good rhythm and things will come together.

 

[dwarven1]

That said, any rack grade rifle with military grade ammo should be able to meet the 4MOA requirement to earn your Rifleman.

But, that does not address the eyesight of the shooter. If the shooter has aging eyes and the optics allow him to better see the sights/target, that will be just fine.

You nailed it, Chris. I was doing terrible on the 400 yard stage, due primarily to the fact that I simply COULD NOT SEE the targets. Nickle handed me an LTR with a scope on it, and bam - my groups shrunk immediately. It made all the difference.

If you're having troubles seeing the targets, then by all means, use a scope. If you can see it but just can't shrink your group sizes, then keep practicing with your iron sights. For 13 points, I'd keep going with the iron sights, though.

Although... Rockrivr1, didn't you shoot Rifleman? Or did I get someone's name wrong?

 

[dixidawg]

+1 I tried to do it with iron sights, but absolutely could NOT see what I needed to with my bifocals. I ended up putting a 4x Nikon scope on and I could finally see what I needed to (including those crosshairs bouncing all over the target as Chris said). Once I learned and forced myself to use the 6 steps, it all began to come together. The scope lets you see what you are supposed to hit. Riflemen skills let you actually hit it. (216 on Sunday morning)

 

[dwarven1]

Although... Rockrivr1, didn't you shoot Rifleman? Or did I get someone's name wrong?

Riflemen skills let you actually hit it. (216 on Sunday morning)

Ah... I did get the names confused. YOU'RE my 216, not RockRivr! (I swear that when I start checking in folks at the next AS, I'm going to ask each shooter for his or her NES handle so I don't confuse who is who again!!)

 

[Rockrivr1]

Although... Rockrivr1, didn't you shoot Rifleman? Or did I get someone's name wrong?

I was close, but didn't quite make it. Shot back to back 197s. I have nothing against using a scope or anyone that needs to use one. I was just wondering. I think I may be confusing Highpower with Appleseed a little. I'm going to stay with the iron sights and see if I can pick up the extra 13 points. With a little practice I think I can do it.

If I fail miserably, the Trijicon is coming out.

 

[dwarven1]

If you're consistently in the 190s with iron sights, it's likely not your eyesight. I'd say stick with the iron sights - you'll get that 13 points.

 

[jar]

I hate shooting standing with a scope. The magnified wobble messes with my head. I can see fine with irons (thanks to the wonders of contact lenses), so that's what I'm sticking with.

 

[MasterShinken]

I have a red dot set up on my AR (without magnification) do you think this would give me issues (due to size of dot) and should invest in backup irons?

 

[dwarven1]

Depends on how big the dot is. If it's 4 MOA or larger, it'll definitely give you problems.

 

[Nickle]

If that Red Dot is larger than 4 MOA, turn it down some, the dot will probably get a little smaller.

If you're going to buy a Red Dot for shooting at an Appleseed, try to get one around 2 MOA, not 4 MOA.

And, about scopes and Appleseed, by all means, they're welcome. The smart guys use 2-7 or 2-8 variables, cranked down to the lowest power. That being said, I've got one LTR that wore a 4X scope (until it fogged), and that rifle made more Riflemen than you could believe. It currently wears a 2-7 Leupold. My personal LTR wears a V8 Weaver, that's a 2-8 power, and it's always set on 2.

 

[MasterShinken]

Ok, cool. Thanks for the info

 

[Ninsho]

Is there an estimate on the number of loaner 10/22 LTR's available? I have a family of 4 I'm getting signed up, and I'm not sure they're ready to go out and buy 4 rifles for this event, they might swing a few. I can loan them my rifle IF my girlfriend backs out.

 

[dwarven1]

You'd have to ask Crak... I'll be in NY at the Throop shoot, along with my two LTRs.

 

[crak]

My two are already spoken for. As much as I'd like to, I'm not in a spot to buy any more either at the moment.

 

[Reptile]

I just signed up. In the mean time I plan on doing some dry firing to work on the 6 steps.

Do not forget that one of the things you need to bring is some sort of shooting mat. Thanks to Nickle who let me borrow an extra.

 

[Ninsho]

I can't really afford to buy any more either... I guess I'll try and keep my eye out for a cheap used one.

 

[eisenhow]

Just signed up! I couldn't talk either my wife or step-son into joining me [sad2]. I guess I'm the only one in my family that wants to save this country .

 

[JonJ]

A carpet remnant works as a mat. Cheap or free.

 

[Garys]

A carpet remnant works as a mat. Cheap or free.

What dimensions do you suggest?

 

[Twigg]

What dimensions do you suggest?

A little wider than and almost as long as your body.

You want it wide and long enough to fit under both elbows and knees when you're shooting from the prone position.

 

[RichM]

NOOB ALERT!!!

Is it possible for 2 to share the same rifle?

I know that we're going to need to know our own zero to reset between shooters... but are the rounds staggered so that it can be done? I have my T/C classic .22 that I'll be using, with my Garand as a backup. I'm hoping not to use the Garand for the whole thing as I don't have enough ammo for it ($$$).

I'd like to take my 17-year-old son (who wants to serve in Air Force ROTC and beyond).

If sharing doesn't work, does anyone have an LTR that I can borrow? I'm in Springfield, and I'd like to borrow in advance if possible...

 

[dwarven1]

Is it possible for 2 to share the same rifle?

No.

You'll be shooting far too much to miss half the day's instruction. Sorry, but we're just not set up that way.

I'm hoping not to use the Garand for the whole thing as I don't have enough ammo for it ($$$).

www.odcmp.com. Order NOW and you might have it by the shoot. Or try and link up with qmmo.com. He doesn't ship, so you'll have to catch him in person.

If sharing doesn't work, does anyone have an LTR that I can borrow? I'm in Springfield, and I'd like to borrow in advance if possible...

If you want to come to the Throop, NY shoot, I do... but my LTRs are going out there with me. Plenty of room on the line so far out in Throop...

I MAY have an LTR for sale within a month or so. I'm thinking of picking up a used 10/22 and turning it into an LTR and then selling it.

BTW... make sure that you have LOTS of mags for that TC - you want to be able to load up at least 40 rounds.

 

[Garys]

A little wider than and almost as long as your body.

You want it wide and long enough to fit under both elbows and knees when you're shooting from the prone position.

Thanks!

 

[calsdad]

Just signed up today. Now I have to figure out what to bring. The M1A kicked the hell out of me last year - and my AR is not finished yet.

 

[Nickle]

Folks, I'll be at the Hartford, CT Appleseed that weekend, and I'll have 6 10/22's, plus 2 other loaners with me. 1 of them might be spoken for already, but the rest are available for use there.

So, if a loaner being available is an issue, simply change locations.

 

[crak]

Woah, 38 signed up already.

If you haven't signed up yet, do so soon.

 

[RichM]

In, plus 1 (my 17 year-old son). I've found a very generous soul who is allowing us to borrow his brand-new LTR 10/22. (Thanks, friend!).

 

[JonJ]

I just signed my wife up. She'll have her own LTR and I'm expecting to IIT that day so my LTR should be available as a loaner if someone is in need.

 

[Stratocaster1422]

Sorry if I missed this info somewhere, but what hours does each day run? I'm just trying to plan out that weekend and would like to know what time the events typically start and end.