Gun range ordered to shutdown (+some stupid sheeple bonus quotes too)

[pipmaster1971]

I copied this post from the "Gun Ranges and Clubs" forum because it just typifies what we, as gun owners, have to put up with.

A gun club, open for 85 years, gets the shaft because new home owners couldn't be bothered to do their homework before they purchased their homes.

And the stupid comment of the month award has to go to Mr. Lee with this gem.

Sang Hee Lee, who has lived on South Meadow Pond Road for three years, says that just hearing the guns is cause for concern.

"It sounds so loud. I don't want my kids growing up hearing that," Lee said. "It's hard to explain to my kids, that people are shooting for fun."

Thanks to tele_mark for finding the original article.

http://www.telegram.com/article/20070616/NEWS/706160350/1116

Gun range sets off fiery debate between towns
By Brian Lepire
Sentinel & Enterprise
Article Launched:

When the town of Lancaster's Zoning Board of Appeals decided in June that shooting at the Clinton Rifle Range broke Lancaster zoning laws, Clinton Fish and Game received a cease-and-desist order.

Since then, officials in both towns have been embroiled in an on-going battle about whether shooting at the nearly century-old site, a portion of which lies in Lancaster, should continue.

"The property was bought by Clinton 85 years ago for the explicit purpose of being a rifle range," said Bill Connolly Jr., a spokesman and member of Clinton Fish and Game. "In those 85 years, there has never been any injury or accident on the site or in the surrounding area."

But neighbors who live near the South Meadow Road site say that while nothing has happened, there's always the possibility of danger.

"I'm not happy with it (the rifle range). Not happy at all," said Jeannette Legere, who lives on Beach Point Road in Lancaster. "I don't know a lot about guns or weapons, how far they can shoot. I'm worried that there's a chance one could come this way, though."

Sang Hee Lee, who has lived on South Meadow Pond Road for three years, says that just hearing the guns is cause for concern.

"It sounds so loud. I don't want my kids growing up hearing that," Lee said. "It's hard to explain to my kids, that people are shooting for fun."

Connelly has said that while the noise is an issue club members are willing to work on, there is little chance a bullet could hit a person in their house.

"The closest house is probably 1,500 yards away," Connolly said, explaining that the hills and woods surrounding the site make it nearly impossible to hit the house. "There's just no way."

Building sound barriers around the range would reduce the noise levels, Connolly said, but because of the court case, it's not now an option.

"Instead of building these noise barriers, we've had to spend the money on lawyers and fees," Connolly said.

The rifle range, which had previously been open Monday through Saturday from 8 a.m. to dusk, has been closed to its 165 members since the Clinton Fish and Game club received the cease-and-desist order, but advocates for the range are trying to have that changed.

Lancaster Building Commissioner Richard Pauley, who is in charge of enforcing the cease-and-desist order, said he was informed on Nov. 1 that he and the Zoning Board of Appeals were being sued by Clinton Fish and Game for their right to shoot at the property.

"The bylaw is in pretty good standing," Pauley said about the rules governing the Lancaster portion of the property.

Clinton selectmen voted to abide by the lawsuit on Nov. 14, after Clinton Police Chief Mark Laverdure said Pauley informed him the order applied to police training as well.

"I sent the letter over to the Town Hall, and it basically said we have to protect the interest of the town," Laverdure said.

Laverdure was stunned to hear Lancaster's order affected his department.

"I was surprised they dragged us into it," Laverdure said. "They were in an argument with the Fish and Game, and I don't know how we got involved."

Laverdure argues that if the Clinton police were not allowed to train at the local site as they have done for the past 40 years, it would cost Clinton more money.

"We use that site for training and certification," Laverdure explained. "If we have to go out of town to get certified we'd have to pay for overtime costs."

The Clinton police force initially continued training at the site after the cease-and-desist order was issued, believing the order didn't apply to law enforcement. When neighbors complained to Lancaster police, Pauley called Laverdure about the order.

Connolly feels that neighbors pushed for the cease-and-desist order from Lancaster only after they exhausted all their options in Clinton.

"Some neighbors have spoken out about it before, bringing it to Town Meeting ... We won overwhelmingly," Connolly said. "Now they're utilizing land zoning laws in Lancaster. I was surprised Lancaster officials took a position on this."

Connolly said that most of Lancaster's police force are Fish and Game members, something that Lancaster Police Chief Kevin Lamb couldn't confirm. Lamb said he hopes for a quick settlement.

"I hope we get a decision soon. The Clinton police are off just trying to do their job," Lamb said. "The court systems can be slow, but hopefully we'll see some action taking place."

Pauley's attention turned to the site's neighbors, who are worried someone might get hit by a stray bullet.

"Nobody is going to win in this case. I just hope none of the neighbors get hurt," Pauley said.

Now excuse me while I

 

[nanerclip]

not surprising coming from this state.

"It sounds so loud. I don't want my kids growing up hearing that," Lee said. "It's hard to explain to my kids, that people are shooting for fun."

are you kidding me?!

 

[MFP4073]

85 years of enjoyment at a club ruined by a "new neighbor" who decides he doesn't like the noise really frosts my balls and I'm not even a member there.

Should have done his homework before he purchased. What a jerk off. You mean to tell me when he went to the open house on Sunday that he didn't hear shooting??

Hopefully they have their order lifted and shooting can commence as it has for many many years.

IMO- if ya dont like it... sell the house and move away from the club.

 

[z0mbi]

This stuff is going on all over the country. Back when I was more into motorsports, it seemed like every other day some 60 year old race track was being closed down because some new jackass moved in right up next to it and then started complaining about the noise 6 months later. People like this really chap my ass. DO YOUR RESEARCH.

 

[Fooped]

85 years of enjoyment at a club ruined by a "new neighbor" who decides he doesn't like the noise really frosts my balls and I'm not even a member there.

Should have done his homework before he purchased. What a jerk off. You mean to tell me when he went to the open house on Sunday that he didn't hear shooting??

Hopefully they have their order lifted and shooting can commence as it has for many many years.

IMO- if ya dont like it... sell the house and move away from the club.

Or grow a pair, buy a gun and join the fun!

 

[MFP4073]

Or grow a pair, buy a gun and join the fun!

+10,000 An even better idea Fooped!

 

[GlockBy]

Luckily there is a law on the books that prevents this type of things from happening in NH.

 

[hikerlt]

Actually that law in NH does NOT seem to work - look at what has happened to the Lone Pines club that was shut down in Hollis by new homeowners who moved in and were "surprised" to hear gunfire coming from a shooting range....

I assume the new homeowners must be Mass immigrants importing their "way of life" into NH and destroying what we have here....

it's a never ending battle to protect the constitutional rights...

 

[Pilgrim]

Seems that passing a zoning law which denies you rights to your own property that you've always had would be violation of :

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


The govt has in effect seized their property in that they cannot use it in the manner to which it has been.

on another note:

The Clinton police force initially continued training at the site after the cease-and-desist order was issued, believing the order didn't apply to law enforcement.

It appears many LEO types feel not much applies to them when it comes to firearms.

 

[N.E. CHARTERS]

Stupid People

I think that all of those people should be given their money back for the house that they bought. The builder who built the houses knew about the gun range. (Oh he didnt know?) well then the town Building Inspector who issued the permits must have surely known.
So. He is the one that should give the homeowners back their purchace price.


Cannon Law?

 

[Len-2A Training]

As I stated in the original thread and previously:

- We have a similar law in MA that "protects" existing gun clubs.

- That law is useless!

- Towns do "what they want" . . . they issue illegal cease & desist orders, pass by-laws that violate other laws (usually being real cagey so they pass the AG's cursory review - see example below).

- The courts will usually back up the towns, regardless of Constitutional or state law conflicts.

- Most clubs aren't rich enough to fight back effectively.

- Very few attorneys are knowledgeable of municipal by-law process, Constitutional Law, and firearms laws (and ballistics).

- Real Estate Agents regularly LIE to prospective buyers, usually telling them that the club will be closed down within x months, etc. Buyers actually believe this line and thus are upset at the club when it continues to exist. When they learn how town gov't works, they use that to get by-laws passed that cripples/shuts down clubs. This is really a very effective tool that they use.

I've been part of the process (on gun club BOD and town gov't) for many years and have seen this in action many times.

Non-gun example: A town passed a few by-laws that essentially prohibit siting of cell towers in the town, in direct violation of Federal Law. These passed the AG's review easily. Key is that if you aren't looking at a Zoning Map at the same time you are reviewing the by-laws, you have no idea that it is impossible to meet the by-law requirements . . . thus effectively preventing cell towers from being sited in the town. Those that wrote the by-laws were ordered to write them that way by the selectmen and my info came from the source!

 

[LoginName]

It doesn't help matters when parasites like the VPC worsen the situation and even offer tips and suggestions to get ranges shut down...

Spokesmen for the gun industry and the "shooting sports" publicly describe shooting ranges as places where skilled marksmen engage in disciplined and wholesome sport shooting. But when they talk privately among themselves, they discuss a less savory reality: lead poisoning and other types of environmental pollution such as excessive noise, dangerous novice shooters who barely know what they are doing, the "Rambo factor" (shooters intent on destroying targets and other objects by blasting away at high speed with powerful guns), suicides, unintentional deaths and injuries—even murders.

Zoning violations and the high levels of noise inherent in shooting range operations cause the majority of complaints about them, according to the NRA's general counsel.119 Many shooting ranges have been involved in "costly litigation" and some have closed because neighbors objected to noise, especially during early morning or late hours.120

"Noise continues to be a major concern on our project and unless your project is built in a vacuum it will be on yours," Michigan state officials Bruce Gustafson and James Dabb told a shooting range symposium. "Persons living in proximity to the proposed site invariably are concerned with the potential disturbances to their ‘quiet' neighborhood."

Lawsuits are one avenue that the general public has traditionally been forced to use to keep shooting ranges under control. The courts have often held shooting ranges to high standards, according to Anne Kimball, an attorney for the gun industry. She stated:

Because of the nature of the activity and the use of firearms at shooting ranges, courts have generally looked at shooting ranges somewhat differently than they have looked at bowling alleys, driving ranges, and other recreational facilities....

A number of courts have held shooters and operators of shooting ranges to a higher degree of care than the owners and operators of other establishments....Some courts have held firearms users to the highest degree of care.147

Lawsuits and other legal remedies against shooting ranges have usually been pursued by neighbors, neighborhood associations, or local governments, particularly zoning boards, environmental action groups, and regulatory agencies. There are a number of theories on which lawsuits against shooting ranges might be based. For example, if range activity has caused actual injury or death, various forms of tort action might be pursued to seek monetary compensation. If the shooting range is operating or proposes to operate in an area not zoned for such activity, zoning violations can form the basis of a lawsuit or regulatory proceeding. Poor control of hazardous materials is a basis for litigation under environmental laws.

But absent torts, zoning violations, or environmental violations, neighbors, associations, and local governments have traditionally relied on "nuisance" theories and noise control laws to abate shooting-range activity.

Nuisance lawsuits are based on the general premise, according to the NRA's general counsel, that "no person is absolutely free to perform acts that others find offensive or that interfere with others' rights to safety and the quiet enjoyment of their own property."148 These lawsuits usually seek an injunction, either closing the range or forcing it to change its operations so as to lessen its obnoxious effects (e.g., stopping night shooting). State or local laws and regulations also often set noise limits, so that government officials can take regulatory or legal action against ranges that violate such limits.

Local Activism

There are several actions Americans can undertake at the local level to combat the serious hazards, especially to children, that shooting ranges and ammunition reloading pose. These include:

* All children who have any direct or indirect exposure to a shooting range or to reloading should immediately have their blood lead levels tested. There is no truly "safe" level of exposure to lead. Any child who has recently shot at a range, or otherwise been present at a shooting range, needs to be tested. Likewise, any child who has participated in, or had any exposure to, ammunition reloading should be tested. Furthermore, any child with indirect exposure through a parent, sibling, etc. who frequents shooting ranges or engages in reloading should be tested.

* No children should be allowed at shooting ranges, nor should they participate in or be exposed to ammunition reloading, since there is no "safe" level of lead exposure for children. Minimum age standards of 18 should be imposed at all shooting ranges and no parent should allow children access to ammunition reloading equipment.

* Conduct local "audits" of shooting ranges to check lead levels at ranges and ensure compliance with all applicable laws and regulations, including zoning, noise, environmental, as well as health and safety. One of the most effective things local activists can do is to form coalitions with health and environmental groups to challenge shooting-range compliance with all applicable laws and regulations and test ranges for lead. Applicable standards include not only zoning and noise ordinances, but state, local, and federal health and environmental-protection laws and regulations. (One of the best sources of information about this potential is material published by the NRA and the NSSF relating to shooting ranges.) In many cases, citizens will find that they can themselves bring lawsuits directly against shooting ranges that are arguably not in compliance with environmental laws. In others, they can urge government officials to take appropriate action.

Ad nauseum... (71 pages worth of rubbish)


http://www.vpc.org/studies/leadcont.htm

 

[rwl1955]

To bad. I used to live in Lancaster. This shows what happens when the uneducated Liberals move into your town. They immediately try to take over and change things to suit themselves. She worries about the noise from gunfire? In the evening I could hear the M60`s night firing at FT. Devens. Is she going to tell the Army to stop firing their weapons because it`s scaring her?
IDIOT!

 

[Gabe]

Or grow a pair, buy a gun and join the fun!

A fabulous point of view. I can't imagine how cool it would be to live so close to my local club that I can hear the shots ringing out! I would use the lower price on the property - because it's obviously damaged goods, being so close to pure evil - to shoot a lot more.

 

[Jay G]

Y'know, there's land in the neighborhood that would make a sweet range...

A fabulous point of view. I can't imagine how cool it would be to live so close to my local club that I can hear the shots ringing out! I would use the lower price on the property - because it's obviously damaged goods, being so close to pure evil - to shoot a lot more.

 

[rscalzo]

Actually that law in NH does NOT seem to work - look at what has happened to the Lone Pines

That isn't totally accurate. Lone Pine failed to get some permits way back when they were formed. They didn't have the protection of the law because they were forced to secure the proper permits under current guidelines. Seems like someone dropped the ball way back when it wasn't an issue and no one ever thought new construction would be a problem.

From what I've heard, Lone Pine may be able to operate a reduced operation in the future. I've seen other local clubs being put in the same situation. Stop by Pelham and look at the new homes that were built right outside of their entrance. That seems to be a problem waiting to happen. It might already be a problem.

 

[Dick]

Something doesn't seem to add up here - neighbors are complaining about the noise, and the club is saying there aren't any houses within 1,500 yards. Fifteen hundred yards is about a mile, and I'm having trouble believing that gunshots can be annoying at that distance, or even heard under most conditions. On the other hand, I'm having trouble believing that there's any place in Lancaster that's that far away from the nearest house.

I'm in the next town east and I'm thinking I need to take a drive over sometime and see for myself.

 

[z0mbi]

Maybe there aren't any houses 1,500yds downrange, but the people complaining about noise are to the sides/front and live closer?

 

[Dick]

Maybe there aren't any houses 1,500yds downrange, but the people complaining about noise are to the sides/front and live closer?

Yeah, that may be what's going on - it was hard to tell from the way the article was written. I think I'll go take a look anyway.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Real Estate Agents regularly LIE to prospective buyers, usually telling them that the club will be closed down within x months, etc. Buyers actually believe this line and thus are upset at the club when it continues to exist. When they learn how town gov't works, they use that to get by-laws passed that cripples/shuts down clubs. This is really a very effective tool that they use.

Or, in one case I know of the judge said "I do not see proof the club was in continuous operation for each of the years listed since it's inception, therefore, the noise grandfathering is not applicable. Finding for the plaintinff, next case please." The club folded lacking the tens of $K to appeal the ruling.

There are out of state developers that will come in do a 40B for you if a club actually gets shut down. This will also help the liberals since they will get the economic diversity lacking in some of these afluent towns.

Clubs should send listing real estate agencies a letter stating the club will remain in operation, has no plans to shut down, and that they should be sure to mention this to buyers who may consider it relevant to thier purchase decision - and send it certified so that they know they cannot lie and later claim ignorance or honest belief they were telling the truth. It's like water in the basement - once the listing agent know about it, they are required to disclose it - but if the seller keeps the listing agent ignorant, they can conveniently avoid the subject.

 

[LoginName]

Maybe there aren't any houses 1,500yds downrange, but the people complaining about noise are to the sides/front and live closer?

Click on the aerial image...

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.ad...5+Lancaster+Rd.&city=berlin&state=ma&zipcode=

There're maybe 15-20 homes tops that are anywhere near the club.

There's also a railroad line running right smack alongside a number of homes (I have no idea if it's an active line or not).

I wonder if they're howling about the noise from that too?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I wonder if they're howling about the noise from that too?

No, since it is well known that (a) the town has very limited jurisdiction over the operation of established rail lines and (b) railroads can afford attorneys. You're not going to shut down a railroad by threatening to make them spend a few tens of $K defending a legal action, so why bother thrying.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The people moving in aren't "ignorant" at all, they are shrewd and know how to use the system to get what they want!

House values: I bought my house privately but it is 1/4 mile max from the outdoor range (behind and to the side) of a local gun club that was very active in the 1970s when I moved here. Proximity did NOT affect my property values then or since then in any way (positive or negative). I didn't own guns back then and never stopped in there until I did own guns.

Local real estate agents know about the clubs (and BR&P did the certified letter routine for the new development surrounding the club). The agents still lie to potential buyers. We had a written request (I was told) from the developer or one of his agents to NOT shoot on Sundays during the times they held "open house" on their properties. Why do you think they might have made such a request??

When the agent lies to the potential buyers they are subject to lawsuits and loss of real estate license, however they always do it such that nobody else hears them so they can lie again and deny they ever said it. He said, she said doesn't fly very far in court or at a licensing board hearing.

Yes, the crybabies do indeed get LE and mil use of facilities "impacted". All night shooting was shut down here due to complaints. Even when told it was a police qualification, the sheep bleated and the selectmen shut down the night qualifications for >10 years.

 

[M1911]

We had a written request (I was told) from the developer or one of his agents to NOT shoot on Sundays during the times they held "open house" on their properties.

We have had similar requests from neighbors of our gun club. We politely turn them down.

 

[dwarven1]

Riverside in Hudson doesn't start shooting until 9 AM so we don't wake the sheep...

 

[Len-2A Training]

We have had similar requests from neighbors of our gun club. We politely turn them down.

We don't allow shooting 'til Noon on Sundays and Holidays due to this . . . at either club I belong to. BR&P doesn't allow any shooting until 10AM on Saturday, so now the CMP matches run 'til 3PM on a regular basis when they used to be done by 1:30PM (when we opened the ranges at 9AM).

Personally, I think Sharon F&G and Massapoag Sportsmen's Club has it "right" on this . . . Sundays start is 10AM! The guys are done shooting skeet/trap by 1PM at the latest and have the rest of the day to do whatever.

 

[rscalzo]

We are looking at the same problem. I 200 acre farm is up for sale next to our club. We expect when it sells that it will become a housing development. Nothing we can do until we learn what the future holds. We will make it known that the club has and will remain in operation since 1931. Fortunately, our neighbors and the town is great.

SIG is going through something similar here in NH. They want to expand the outdoor range operation until 11pm during the week. The residents nearby are fighting the issue. Unlike many other ranges, SIG hasn't been there that long and most of the neighbors have lived there long before SIG came in. What I find surprising is that SIG is crying poverty and is resisting putting up sound barriers.

 

[N.E. CHARTERS]

Ring the Christmas decibels

A cockatoo can easily screech at 104 decibels

annoying loudspeaker vans everywhere in Tokyo blaring out the local politicians name at 200 decibels. ...


The noise from a train horn (over 110 dBA at 100 feet)


My Charterboat dual horns required by the US Coast Guard at 6 inchs over my head 117db

Jet-skis emit 85 to 105 decibels


jet engine - 120 dB

small arms ...... 150 decibels

St. John's, a Catholic church When the bells began ringing, in three-minute bursts -- three times on weekdays, once on Saturdays and before each of five Sunday Masses, starting at 7:30 a.m. -- neighbors complained.
The county discovered that the bells registered at an average of 75 decibels


AC/DC's "Back in Black" 70 Decibels


Cool Link!

http://www.itrcweb.org/Documents/SMART-2.pdf

 

[drgrant]

There're maybe 15-20 homes tops that are anywhere near the club.

There's also a railroad line running right smack alongside a number of homes (I have no idea if it's an active line or not).

I wonder if they're howling about the noise from that too?

I hope the railroad decides to run trains in layover mode over
there.....

Would be nice to park a bunch of these in their backyard....

Even in "idle" mode you can hear an F40 from like the better part
of a mile away in open air.

-Mike

 

[pipmaster1971]

I'm a member of a pistol club with an indoor range. Their policy kind of makes sense. Shooting between 7:00am and 11m (if memory serves). BUT .22LR only after 8:00pm.