Gun Free Zone: Gun Club

[MAC2187]

I would agree with the fact, that this is a private organization, that can can impose whatever restrictions they want, on there grounds. That being said, the class could have stood up and asked for there money back, not wanting to support a club which imposes these polices on lawfully, licensed gun owners. The divide between hunters and those who carry firearms for self defense really needs to stop. My two cents.

 

[xstickfightx]

I happen to agree with Ma**h***, after all, it's a GUN CLUB, and the reasoning that the instructor used is that if anything happened there would be a gun fight????
I mean if we as gun owners look upon each other with such suspicion then what do you think the anti's will do, embrace us? Bullshit. I carry whenever I'm awake, if someone takes my gun from me it will be off my lifeless body. I would have just sat there and took the course. And I'm not talking about demonstration purposes. Joke em if they can't take a F@%k.

Just to clarify, the instructor did not say that there would be a gun fight because people were CCW in the class. He stated that because of the nature of the course, including dry fire and firearms handling, he did not want the off chance that someone would pull out their CC piece to show somebody and have an accident. This accident would be news on the west coast in minutes.

Again, nobody was patted down and forced to hand over their firearms. People were asked if carrying, they could please unload and lock up.

I think a more gracious way to put it without outing anybody would be to ask that next class no firearms or ammo be brought in. The first class included no handling of firearms. Just boring, but necessary lecture.

 

[kevin9]

I would agree with the fact, that this is a private organization, that can can impose whatever restrictions they want, on there grounds. That being said, the class could have stood up and asked for there money back, not wanting to support a club which imposes these polices on lawfully, licensed gun owners.

People need to RTFM and quit perpetuating this rumor!

I apologize MAC2187 if this comes across harshly to you but you're at least the 6th or 7th person who's posted this allegation without any substantiation. Crap like this makes us look like over-the-top paranoid idiots who are too busy with (un)righteous indignation to actually get the facts and apply some freakin' common sense.

The divide between hunters and those who carry firearms for self defense really needs to stop. My two cents.

Agreed, but this ain't that.

 

[Raoul Duke]

So "my friend" goes to a Hunter Safety Course today at a gun club while he was carrying. He didn't think anything of it considering he was going to a gun club after all. To his surprise, the instructor asks a class of 50 if anyone has any firearms on them and if they did they had to surrender them and put them in a locked closet in the club. The course guide later handed out a booklet in class that stated "DO NOT bring any firearms or ammunition to classes."
The instructor's reasoning for not wanting a room full of armed people was that if an incident were to occur he wouldn't want a shootout and it would more than likely reach the west coast news in seconds. This instructor said things weren't like they used to be when a kid could have a gun in his room. How can someone promoting the sport of shooting blatantly take away someone's firearm like that? I felt the same way when I was stripped of my ammo and had my gun zip tied at a gun show. If the head of these organizations don't trust a room full of legally armed citizens to make the right choices, how should we expect the pols to trust all of us? If it's not about trust and mere rights to you, these organizers are still taking away our 2A rights and how do we expect not to be "tread on" by liberal pols?
Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way but please try to talk me out of why it is okay for someone who promotes firearms to take them away. Should "my friend" write a letter to Wayne MacCallum and mention this, or should he bring this up to his instructor. It appears the organization approves disarming citizens from top to bottom. How would you react to this dilemma?

(I'm sure some of you would say "Hell, I'd walk out/leave." If you live in MA you've been pressed to run through a shitload of little loops and mazes to obtain your gun license so just leaving isn't an option.)

There is a time-honored adage about such situations, that is: "No one ever got in trouble by keeping their mouth shut."

Now, the fact of the matter is that probably isn't exactly true. But the sentiment is still most valid.

 

[MAC2187]

People need to RTFM and quit perpetuating this rumor!

I apologize MAC2187 if this comes across harshly to you but you're at least the 6th or 7th person who's posted this allegation without any substantiation. Crap like this makes us look like over-the-top paranoid idiots who are too busy with (un)righteous indignation to actually get the facts and apply some freakin' common sense.

Agreed, but this ain't that.

The original poster did not state it was a requirement of the course, not to bring a firearm and if it was sated in a thread here I must of missed it. Since this it is a requirement of the course, not to bring a firearm, the issue is closed. My point is if you disagree with a policy in general ,vote with your feet and wallet. No apology needed.

 

[7.62x39]

That was the case at the GOAL/NRA RSO course I took last summer.
NO live ammo in the classroom. The course required a lot of firearm handling and I think the rule makes perfect sense.

I didn't take this course from GOAL, but I don't recall ANY gun handling as part of that course. Maybe I slept thru that part of it?

I took it at Mansfield and Jon Green was the instructor. We went through several scenarios both in the classroom and on the range that required gun handling. Including how to clear all types of firearms. On the second day, Jon had us each bring in some firearms (especially uncommon ones) so that we could practice clearing firearms unfamiliar to us. I brought in a FAL, a Krink and my M1919. He got a real kick out of that.

 

[EddieCoyle]

I know in the NRA basic pistol class it's spelled out in the rules of the course "No firearms or live ammunition allowed in the class" this is mainly just to make sure live ammo doesn't get mixed in with the dummy ammo when practicing.

Half true.

The NRA course mandates that there is no live ammunition in the class. I bring plenty of guns when I teach.

 

[Ma$$hole]

Overall I've cooled off since yesterday. I appreciate all of those who had input in the matter. I wouldn't keep my mouth shut about the whole thing because if I'm not wrong there is a lil something about free speech in that constitution (but what do I know). Xstickfightx made a valid point that firearms were not handled in the first class and we could have been advised not to bring ammo next class. I especially want to thank those who took advanced courses and put their input in. It seems they all had the relatively same response to the issue. I'll officially step off of my soap box now.

 

[n1zfg]

He probably should have stopped at clearing the ammo from the room.

Don't consider it something sinister, especially when taking a course that assumes no prior firearm experience, to be asked to leave the ammo at the door.

Put together an area where you have a crowd of people, all handling firearms, and you have a recipe for someone getting something pointed at them. Because of this, During the course of these (and other) classes, the sanction for violating the "safe direction" rule gets relaxed by necessity. When this is done, other conditions are "doubled up" to restore the initial level of safety. Getting all ammo out of the area where the instructor and students are working is part of that "doubling up".

I have been swept by a friend with a loaded uzi pistol. He is intelligent and otherwise safe. He did receive the "don't go pointing guns at your friends" briefing immediately after the incident, and I would go shooting with him again. My point here is this: No matter who you are with, if you don't know for a fact that he knows his shit AND has the attitude to be constantly vigilant, would you mill around him while he handles a potentially loaded gun? Instructors walk around strangers, holding firearms all the time.

 

[M1911]

I can't speak about the Hunter Safety courses. But as an NRA instructor, I can tell you that the NRA requires that no live ammunition be in the classroom. If the NRA instructor does not follow the NRA guidelines, chances are his insurance would not cover any incident that occurred.

If I am not mistaken any time you take a class at GOAL you are asked to unload and secure your firearm.

When I took a class at GOAL, the rule was no ammunition in the classroom.

If you can't safely unload your firearm you shouldn't be caryying it in the first place.

IMHO, a holstered gun is a safe gun. Taking the gun out of the holster and unloading it, and later loading it and reholstering is far riskier than just leaving the damn thing in the holster to begin with.

Go to google and enter "instructor shoots self".... there are many examples where an AD in the classroom can happen and do happen.

Which is exactly why the NRA has the "no ammo in classroom" rule.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

If the NRA instructor does not follow the NRA guidelines, chances are his insurance would not cover any incident that occurred.

Interesting - people make assertions like this all the time, but I've never been able to find a clause in a policy that covers negligence, but excludes specific types like violating an NRA class guideline. Plaintiff's counsel would certainly love to be able to present violation of NRA policy in their argument, but this is like saying "If you talk on a cellphone while driving in NY where it is illegal, the insurance company may not cover you for liability if you get into an accident."

Can you cite some specific facts, case law, or policy clauses to back up your assertion?

 

[M1911]

Interesting - people make assertions like this all the time, but I've never been able to find a clause in a policy that covers negligence, but excludes specific types like violating an NRA class guideline. Plaintiff's counsel would certainly love to be able to present violation of NRA policy in their argument, but this is like saying "If you talk on a cellphone while driving in NY where it is illegal, the insurance company may not cover you for liability if you get into an accident."

Can you cite some specific facts, case law, or policy clauses to back up your assertion?

Nope, I can't.

I will say that a certain MA firearms attorney and NRA instructor strongly recommended to me that we require NRA instructors at our club to follow the NRA outline and rules to the letter.

 

[wahsben]

The official course description says exactly that:
andSeems to me the OP's friend who took the course did not read ahead.

Thank you. Since this was stated he should have been prepared for this. I know that when I take a course at GOAL that disarming and no ammo is standard practice.
My only concern with all gun free zones is that they can become a very deadly place if someone decides not to follow the rules or has bad intentions to begin with.

 

[Bassturd]

Thank you. Since this was stated he should have been prepared for this. I know that when I take a course at GOAL that disarming and no ammo is standard practice.
My only concern with all gun free zones is that they can become a very deadly place if someone decides not to follow the rules or has bad intentions to begin with.

Gun clubs are the farthest thing from "gun free zones". Only someone with a death wish would come into a gun club shooting. Even with a disarmed classroom, there are plenty of other folks around.

 

[wahsben]

Gun clubs are the farthest thing from "gun free zones". Only someone with a death wish would come into a gun club shooting. Even with a disarmed classroom, there are plenty of other folks around.

The area you are taking the course in has effectively become a gun and ammo free zone and if someone taking the course did not disarm and opened fire by the time people got to their guns and loaded them if they were able to there would be alot of wounded and killed in that short period of time.

 

[cekim]

The area you are taking the course in has effectively become a gun and ammo free zone and if someone taking the course did not disarm and opened fire by the time people got to their guns and loaded them if they were able to there would be alot of wounded and killed in that short period of time.

As already stated, compared to the odds of someone mistakenly "dry firing" a loaded weapon in a training class where you do all sorts of things you don't normally do outside a range or firefight, the odds of your scenario are astronomically lower considering that you'd first have to decide to go postal in a gun club...

Seems like about the only people up for that task are pretty anti-gun, so we can rule them out...

 

[droppin Shells]

I too was at this class, I am not entirely too familiar with that particular gun club or it's rules or the NRAs for that matter on said classes. However, I too had to be disarmed and my firearm was placed in a locked closet away from me. I had no opinion on the matter either way...except that the instructor emphasized quite passionately that though our firearms can be used as weapons we shouldn't refer to them as such...we should refer to them as firearms for the sake of the "sport", (hunting), and to be honest at that point I thought to myself, well...okay so take my mazagine, make me unload but I could easily keep my "firearm" on my person in my holster. Especially since there was no interactive gun demo during that particular class. Either way really... it is what it is, I want my hunting license and if that is what needs to be done...so be it.

 

[terraformer]

Gun clubs are the farthest thing from "gun free zones". Only someone with a death wish would come into a gun club shooting.

Amazingly enough I have heard of SoCal clubs getting raided and even people getting mugged walking out of MV in Malden. Although the latter may have been a while ago.

 

[wahsben]

As already stated, compared to the odds of someone mistakenly "dry firing" a loaded weapon in a training class where you do all sorts of things you don't normally do outside a range or firefight, the odds of your scenario are astronomically lower considering that you'd first have to decide to go postal in a gun club...

Seems like about the only people up for that task are pretty anti-gun, so we can rule them out...

There actually has been an incident where a person opened fire in a police station so nothing is beyond someone with criminal intent.

There is always a chance of an accident even if you take all the precautions neccesary but by always checking the gun each and everytime before doing dryfire it becomes highly unlikely. As the rule goes: Always treat a gun as if it is loaded. In fact in the training at GOAL they still check and also have others check to make sure the chamber is clear on their guns even though they have collected everyones guns & ammo.
Also if a person is carrying concealed they should know that you never draw the weapon except in a life threatening situation, so unless they are going to be doing drills with their own guns or drawing drills where they might draw their gun by mistake it will remain holstered and therefore I don't think the chance of an accident is any greater.
If as in some classes their will be grappling, wrestling or other physical contact than the guns should be removed.

I wish we could rule the anti's out it would make life so much easier if we did not have to deal with their hysteria. (wink)

 

[MasterShinken]

Half true.

The NRA course mandates that there is no live ammunition in the class. I bring plenty of guns when I teach.

Woops, should have said no student firearms. but yeah, basic pistol class wouldn't make much sense without a few in the class

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I will say that a certain MA firearms attorney and NRA instructor strongly recommended to me that we require NRA instructors at our club to follow the NRA outline and rules to the letter.

Very good advice for several reasons. My point is that insurance companies cannot simply add whatever reason it feels to deny a claim, and I doubt there are many policies with a "claim denied if you don't follow the NRA guidelines". One could argue it is negligent - but if insurance companies could deny claims for negligence, the auto insurers would be able to deny a large percentage of claims.

 

[vellnueve]

Overall I've cooled off since yesterday. I appreciate all of those who had input in the matter. I wouldn't keep my mouth shut about the whole thing because if I'm not wrong there is a lil something about free speech in that constitution (but what do I know). Xstickfightx made a valid point that firearms were not handled in the first class and we could have been advised not to bring ammo next class. I especially want to thank those who took advanced courses and put their input in. It seems they all had the relatively same response to the issue. I'll officially step off of my soap box now.

The Constitution has nothing to do with it. You're making a voluntary association with a private organization. Their turf, their rules.

 

[GSG]

Amazingly enough I have heard of SoCal clubs getting raided and even people getting mugged walking out of MV in Malden. Although the latter may have been a while ago.

Yup, Matix and Platt, the two guys who shot it out with the FBI in Miami in 1986 did this quite a bit.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html

A perception that many have held the intervening years is that the eight FBI agents' marksmanship was gravely lacking. Not so, argues Dr. Anderson, and presents a persuasive brief that a number of FBI hits were good ones; they just happened to run up against two highly trained (military police, 101st Airborne and Rangers), well-practiced (approximately 750-1,500 rounds per week which they had purchased or robbed from several unfortunate civilians plinking in the Everglades), and extremely focussed individuals in Platt and Matix. The FBI fired a verified 70 rounds (possibly as many as 77 or 78) and delivered 18 wounds to the bad guys, firing at extremely hostile targets obscured by gunsmoke, considerable amounts of dust and debris from the crashing, careening cars, and the deep shadows of the trees beneath which their vehicle came to rest.

When I'm at the range, I'm armed, just like when I'm anywhere else.

 

[jdseven1]

That is a rule from Mass Wildlife not the rule of the Gun Club. I also think it is a good idea. The next time you go to a gun show see what they do when you have a weapon. The clubs and the instructors give these classes free.
The last thing a gun club needs is a problem with someone with a loaded weapon. Than will be the end of the Clubs hosting Hunter Safety courses.

 

[mikem317]

This is the equivalent of me telling you... Oh you don't like the MA gun laws and application process? Here's a stick.. use it to defend yourself and your family. I obviously don't have a choice in the matter. If I could go somewhere else that let me hang on to my firearm I would. Things just don't happen that way.

No it's different.

The club is private. The state is not.

 

[mikem317]

Gun clubs are the farthest thing from "gun free zones". Only someone with a death wish would come into a gun club shooting. Even with a disarmed classroom, there are plenty of other folks around.

And not to go completely off topic, but this is why private gun ranges and clubs are some of the safest places to be.

Psychopaths who are hellbent on killing people usually shoot up schools. And we all know why.

 

[Jose]

It plain sucks to be told at a gun club of all places that you are not allowed to keep your gun on your person, loaded and in your holster or underwear or where ever you choose to keep it.

Yes it does.

That is precisely why I stopped being the match director for Mid Range Prone and CMP EIC matches at one of the clubs I belong, why I refuse to help them in any way, shape, or form, and why I will no longer be a member as of April 1st.

I asked politely why I and others who are licensed to carry guns are considered safe doing so until we cross the gate and I wish I had recorded the phone conversations and kept the e-mails from club officers. Frankly, they are a bunch of hypocritical a**h***s.

Miami Rifle & Pistol Club, in Batavia, Ohio can eat a big, stinky, steamy turd as far as I am concerned. If they got shut down tomorrow, I will lose not one second of sleep.

The LAST place in the world that should have a sign with a gun in a red/slash circle is a gun club, for f*ks sake.

 

[houdini]

I teach a nra rso course that is the policy.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I took it at Mansfield and Jon Green was the instructor. We went through several scenarios both in the classroom and on the range that required gun handling. Including how to clear all types of firearms. On the second day, Jon had us each bring in some firearms (especially uncommon ones) so that we could practice clearing firearms unfamiliar to us. I brought in a FAL, a Krink and my M1919. He got a real kick out of that.

I took it elsewhere. Perhaps we did clear some firearms, if so I don't recall (it was >1 year ago). I've done enough clearing firearms for a lifetime . . . just try Thunderbolts in a S&W 422/622 and you'll be well-experienced in clearing Type 1-3s!

 

[Snapshot]

I once went to MRA to do their little "fun shoot" thing they have every year. I approached the line to shoot the steel. The guy said "Prepare to fire". I unholstered my firearm and placed it at low ready.

He paused for a moment and asked "Is that weapon loaded?"
I say "Yes" and think "Well that was a dumb question".

He gets this really annoyed tone about him like I'm some sort of idiot. Then when I'm done he stops the whole event to tell everybody that no holstered guns are allowed to be loaded.

You gotta be kidding me right?!?! Yeah... I just got my LTC so I can carry around an empty weapon.

Between that and their mind blowingly ridiculous rule that states "no gun can have more then one round in it at a time while on the firing line", I basically told them to piss off.