Gun Free Zone: Gun Club

[madmarc0]

I happen to agree with Ma**h***, after all, it's a GUN CLUB, and the reasoning that the instructor used is that if anything happened there would be a gun fight????
I mean if we as gun owners look upon each other with such suspicion then what do you think the anti's will do, embrace us? Bullshit. I carry whenever I'm awake, if someone takes my gun from me it will be off my lifeless body. I would have just sat there and took the course. And I'm not talking about demonstration purposes. Joke em if they can't take a F@%k.

 

[Ma$$hole]

Damn, you all will laugh but my blood is still boiling over this and I just had a thought here trying to sleep so in comes the blackberry.

It's a perfect Mass/ Anti ideology. "You can practice your 2A rights, just don't do it here. Do it how I tell you to aned shut up. You're not suitable to carry a gun here so I'll be taking that from you." God I'm pissed. I have tons of experience and just like in this state I don't need someone telling me that I'm not qualified to carry what I want when I want it because I can handle/ shoot a firearm better than 90% of those who are deemed "qualified." Piss off. Some "higher-up" will hear about this.

 

[GSG]

I wouldn't raise my hand.

Ditto.

 

[terraformer]

In my opinion you need to take the plank out of your eye before you try pulling splinters form others. I completely understand the safety aspect. I refuse to give up the club name. Overall, this was one of the black eyes I've seen on the inside of an organization like this. It appears this is on a national level considering it's the NRA's rules. Every system has it's flaws and hypocracies. I just happened to find one today.

You should look into the other range rules the NRA proffers like 5 round limits. I can't imagine what law that rule justifies....

 

[Rob Boudrie]

No ammo in class is because guns are handled in the class and it avoids any chance of an accidental mix-up. It's also required by the NRA guidelines for it's courses, and part of being an instructor for an organization is to agree to follow it's rules.

The last Glock armorer's recertification I took was about 2 years ago at the Boston police academy. The audience was well over 90% police. Guess what? The first order of business was for everyone in class to take a short walk to their armory to lock up their carry gun for the duration of the course. Yup, even the police and the instructor (who is also active duty with a NY state PD department) were disarmed for the class.

I also don't have a problem with "cold range" rules at shooting competitions, provided they apply without exception to everyone including match staff. What I have a problem with is gun shows that declare their staff who are not paid to be there as security declare themselves as "additional security" and exempt from the rules they impose on everyone else, as this is all too much like the manner in which the gun banners tend to work.

What I also have a problem with (and personally managed to get changed at one gun club) is rules like "never carry a loaded gun in the clubhouse". First, it's hypocritical to have such a rule when the same board members that passed such a rule will complain if their chief restricts their LTC so they don't carry in public. Second, it's a safety hazard. An unintentional discharge is much more likely if you have people loading/unloading in places like cars, by the door to the club, etc.

 

[rcinma]

I don't see the problem with this. My club has had a "No loaded Guns in the clubhouse" rule for as long as I can remember - and that is for members.

It is a simple act of unloading my gun and putting the mag in my pocket before I walk inside - the same thing I do going into any gun store that has similar rules.

For a public safety class, why should the club risk an accident and an insurance nightmare from a room full of people who are obviously beginners or they wouldn't be taking the class in the first place.

If you don't like it try to find a class that will let you carry in their club (don't hold your breath).

 

[madmarc0]

Fudds. They pose as "resposisible" gun owners just trying to take care of those of us stupid enough to own machineguns. I can't tell you how many times I have been asked at a gun club why I would ever need such a gun.
I usually go tell them to go to the clubhouse and have another cigarette or another cup of coffee.
YOU YOUNGER GUYS NEED TO GET MORE INVOLVED in the daily running of the gun clubs you belong to, like run for a spot on the board of directors and when these dirty old bastards vote to ban certian types of guns fight them for all it's worth.

Yeah, I'm gonna put my picket sign away now...

 

[lord1234]

The gun club I am doing my Hunter Ed course at(a well respected club with a great range that I hope to be a member of at some point), also asked that noone carry to the Hunter Ed course. Please don't forget, that the Hunter ed course is *NOT* a certifying course for handguns. You can not get an LTC by taking the class.

 

[kevin9]

It sound l

So "my friend" goes to a Hunter Safety Course today at a gun club while he was carrying. He didn't think anything of it considering he was going to a gun club after all. To his surprise, the instructor asks a class of 50 if anyone has any firearms on them and if they did they had to surrender them and put them in a locked closet in the club. The course guide later handed out a booklet in class that stated "DO NOT bring any firearms or ammunition to classes."

It sounds like this was an instructor's rule versus a club rule. And as several have pointed out it seems to make a great deal of sense from a safety standpoint.

The instructor's reasoning for not wanting a room full of armed people was that if an incident were to occur he wouldn't want a shootout and it would more than likely reach the west coast news in seconds. This instructor said things weren't like they used to be when a kid could have a gun in his room.

On the other hand the reason given by the instructor is a bunch of hooey: He sounds like a Fudd. It appears he was doing the right thing for the wrong reason (or at least as he stated so). It would have been much better to have explained the valid safety reasons for removing loaded guns from the training environment rather than make up some crappy PC reasons about gun fight and publicity.

 

[Hikes]

I think the no guns/no ammo makes a lot of sense and doesnt bother me at all. When I tool my course my instructor asked anyone if they had any guns or ammo, then showed us that he was not carrying, and mentioned that there was not a single live round in the room.

This, i'm sure, raised the comfort level for many of the first time gun handlers. Also, since these classes are so packed, there is no "safe" direction so the whole time I had guns being aimed at me from across the room (I was their "down range" direction and they were mine).

In this situation it is perfectly understandable not only for saety, but for the comfort of all. After all, is it is NRA BASIC course...the vasr majority of those who take it are unlicensed.

An advanced course is a whole other thing.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I don't see the problem with this. My club has had a "No loaded Guns in the clubhouse" rule for as long as I can remember - and that is for members.

It is a simple act of unloading my gun and putting the mag in my pocket before I walk inside - the same thing I do going into any gun store that has similar rules.

For a public safety class, why should the club risk an accident and an insurance nightmare from a room full of people who are obviously beginners or they wouldn't be taking the class in the first place.

Relative to the "no carry in clubhouse" rule (and not to the "no guns in class" rule, and the class is an environment when guns will be handled)

1. Do you think unholstering and unloading a gun before entering or leaving it in the holster is safer when you have dozens of people coming to a meeting?

2. Does you club board believe members should be able to get their LTC-As without restriction?

3. If so, does you club believe people should be able to carry in public? If so, why does your club consider it safe to carry at the mall but not in the clubhouse?

My home club has a simple rule "Guns may be unholstered or uncased only on the firing line".

 

[Big_Red]

If I am not mistaken any time you take a class at GOAL you are asked to unload and secure your firearm.

 

[madmarc0]

I think either I'm missing the point here or it wasn't explained well. This was not a "show me your gun" course, it was a freakin hunter safety course!
I'm all for having no ammo around when folks are playing with their guns and such, but why disarm licensed folks who are just gathering to see a video or listen to some guy tell you not to lean your gun on a tree.

It plain sucks to be told at a gun club of all places that you are not allowed to keep your gun on your person, loaded and in your holster or underwear or where ever you choose to keep it.

 

[jasonj84]

Again, the no guns or ammunition rule is a mandate by the NRA for their classes. Also, if something were to happen because the instructor ignored that rule, he would be subject to at least, a civil lawsuit. That is why the instructors have to carry their own liability insurance. He was just following the rules and covering his ass. That being said, concealed is concealed.

 

[7.62x39]

If I am not mistaken any time you take a class at GOAL you are asked to unload and secure your firearm.

That was the case at the GOAL/NRA RSO course I took last summer.
NO live ammo in the classroom. The course required a lot of firearm handling and I think the rule makes perfect sense.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

That was the case at the GOAL/NRA RSO course I took last summer.

There is a huge difference between unloading for a course and unloading simply because you enter their building.

 

[45collector]

I can see why you're pissed on this Ma**h***. It seems silly that a class that's promoting your 2A rights should disarm you.

But I'd have to agree with others that:

1) It's a private operation. They have the right to ask you to disarm if you're on their property.

2)If it is mostly inexperienced shooters attending, I'd probably be more comfortable if I knew no one around me had live ammo on them while handguns were being passed around for dry firing and such. (please don't comment on it here to hijack this thread, but check out one of my last posts in the "random thoughts" thread where I explain how I was almost hit by an ND by an inexperienced shooter the other day at the range.)

 

[Bassturd]

2)If it is mostly inexperienced shooters attending, I'd probably be more comfortable if I knew no one around me had live ammo on them while handguns were being passed around for dry firing and such. (please don't comment on it here to hijack this thread, but check out one of my last posts in the "random thoughts" thread where I explain how I was almost hit by an ND by an inexperienced shooter the other day at the range.)

This really has nothing to do with experience. It has everything to do with fallibility and liability.

I recently took an NRA Instructors course. There were 20ish people in the room. They all had varying degrees of firearms experience, but all of them had enough experience to be in the room and working on instructor certifications.

Every person in the room disarmed for the class. They disarmed because it is a rule in NRA classes, but that only tells some of the story. They disarm because during the classes we were handling multiple firearms and calibers of ammunition, and anyone can make a mistake in a moment. They disarm out of respect for the people that they are in the class with. Nobody goes to a firearms safety course of any kind and wants to come home with more holes than they left with. They disarm out of respect for the person teaching the class, who could and most likely would be held liable if an accident were to occur because there was live ammunition in the classroom.

There are a ton of reasons. People talk about the first rule of cleaning a firearm being having no ammunition present, but somehow it's unacceptable when a big group of people are going to be handling, loading and unloading dummy rounds into firearms that they are trying to learn about, and there is a safety policy of no live ammunition?

There is no reason to be upset with a policy like this. It is sound policy.

 

[rcinma]

Relative to the "no carry in clubhouse" rule (and not to the "no guns in class" rule, and the class is an environment when guns will be handled)

1. Do you think unholstering and unloading a gun before entering or leaving it in the holster is safer when you have dozens of people coming to a meeting?

2. Does you club board believe members should be able to get their LTC-As without restriction?

3. If so, does you club believe people should be able to carry in public? If so, why does your club consider it safe to carry at the mall but not in the clubhouse?

My home club has a simple rule "Guns may be unholstered or uncased only on the firing line".

If you can't safely unload your firearm you shouldn't be caryying it in the first place.

 

[kevin9]

I figure the club is a private entity and they can make and enforce whatever rules they want.

Which club was this? I'd like to make sure I never do anything that might benefit them.

I don't see any problems with private organisations allowing or not allowing guns wherever they want.

I wouldn't look at it as they are infringing on your rights, they are exercising their right to say what can and cannot be done on THEIR property.

That said, I agree in thinking it is foolish. "No loaded weapons in the club house" is common, from what I my understand. Putting the side arms in a safe is overkill IMHO.

Were was it shown that this was a club rule, versus a class or instructor rule?

 

[scouter-rick]

Go to google and enter "instructor shoots self".... there are many examples where an AD in the classroom can happen and do happen.

One example.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE3QAeYRk-A

 

[45collector]

Go to google and enter "instructor shoots self".... there are many examples where an AD in the classroom can happen and do happen.

One example.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE3QAeYRk-A

I think that one was an ND, not an AD.

 

[cekim]

I think that one was an ND, not an AD.

+1 for ND

You could almost make out the ghostly outline of Darwin himself standing next to the Grim Reaper on that one...

 

[kevin9]

The gun club I am doing my Hunter Ed course at(a well respected club with a great range that I hope to be a member of at some point), also asked that noone carry to the Hunter Ed course. Please don't forget, that the Hunter ed course is *NOT* a certifying course for handguns. You can not get an LTC by taking the class.

A bit OT, but it's my understanding that a Hunter Education course is by law sufficient to get an LTC. I've heard that there is some confusion in this regard with a few CLEOs (surprise, surprise surprise) and others but the MA Dept. of Fish and Wildlife site is pretty clear on it in multiple places, and I know family members who have been told the same when they inquired.

 

[wahsben]

This really has nothing to do with experience. It has everything to do with fallibility and liability.

I recently took an NRA Instructors course. There were 20ish people in the room. They all had varying degrees of firearms experience, but all of them had enough experience to be in the room and working on instructor certifications.

Every person in the room disarmed for the class. They disarmed because it is a rule in NRA classes, but that only tells some of the story. They disarm because during the classes we were handling multiple firearms and calibers of ammunition, and anyone can make a mistake in a moment. They disarm out of respect for the people that they are in the class with. Nobody goes to a firearms safety course of any kind and wants to come home with more holes than they left with. They disarm out of respect for the person teaching the class, who could and most likely would be held liable if an accident were to occur because there was live ammunition in the classroom.

There are a ton of reasons. People talk about the first rule of cleaning a firearm being having no ammunition present, but somehow it's unacceptable when a big group of people are going to be handling, loading and unloading dummy rounds into firearms that they are trying to learn about, and there is a safety policy of no live ammunition?

There is no reason to be upset with a policy like this. It is sound policy.

I consider it disrespectful to disarm people that have commited no crime. This says I don't trust you being armed.
This was a hunter safety course. I don't know how much gun handling is involved but I don't believe there would be much or any with handguns.
If it is a course that requires alot of gun handling and especially if it requires handling of your own firearm than it should be stated in the course outline that guns must be unloaded and shown to be clear with no live ammo present upon attending the class.
When you disarm there is also the possibility that someone else could obtain your firearm who should not have them. Liability can go both ways.

 

[kevin9]

I consider it disrespectful to disarm people that have commited no crime. This says I don't trust you being armed.
This was a hunter safety course. I don't know how much gun handling is involved but I don't believe there would be much or any with handguns.
If it is a course that requires alot of gun handling and especially if it requires handling of your own firearm than it should be stated in the course outline that guns must be unloaded and shown to be clear with no live ammo present upon attending the class.

The official course description says exactly that:

Course instruction includes: safe handling and storage of hunting arms and ammunition,

and

What to Leave at Home: Please do NOT bring any firearms or ammunition to classes. Only Program firearms and equipment may be used.

Seems to me the OP's friend who took the course did not read ahead.

 

[Supermoto]

I don't need someone telling me that I'm not qualified to carry what I want when I want it because I can handle/ shoot a firearm better than 90% of those who are deemed "qualified." Piss off. Some "higher-up" will hear about this.

I'm sure if you let the instructor know just how much better you are than the rest, he would have let you keep your gun.... I mean, someone one with your gifts and talents, certainly should not have to follow the guns.

Safety rules are there for the .1%, 99.99% of people know not to take a gun out during a firearms class, there is always the one jackass that does, usually because he doesn't think the rules apply to him.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Second, it's a safety hazard. An unintentional discharge is much more likely if you have people loading/unloading in places like cars, by the door to the club, etc.

Fully agree! None of my guns will go off while they are safely in their holsters. It's when you handle a gun that statistically there is a "chance" of a ND. So the less "handling" the better (for safety purposes) except on a range.

The gun club I am doing my Hunter Ed course at(a well respected club with a great range that I hope to be a member of at some point), also asked that noone carry to the Hunter Ed course. Please don't forget, that the Hunter ed course is *NOT* a certifying course for handguns. You can not get an LTC by taking the class.

Not so. According to the NOTE in Chief Ron Glidden's book

Completion of a Massachusetts Basic Hunter Safety course by first time LTC or FID Card applicants meets the statutory requirement for such an applicant to complete a basic firearms safety course.

That was the case at the GOAL/NRA RSO course I took last summer.
NO live ammo in the classroom. The course required a lot of firearm handling and I think the rule makes perfect sense.

I didn't take this course from GOAL, but I don't recall ANY gun handling as part of that course. Maybe I slept thru that part of it?

If you can't safely unload your firearm you shouldn't be caryying it in the first place.

Yes, but that is where the accidents/negligence happens. I recall a few NDs as people were clearing their guns to enter the gun shows in the past. Safer in the holster (as long as it stays there)!!

All that said, I am NOT in favor of disarming students unless:

- gun handling is part of the course,
- the students are all newbies,

This whole thread sounds to me like it is a "course rule" and NOT a club rule! I know that NRA has this as a "wholesale rule" for every one of their courses, whether it makes sense (for safety) or not, but NRA IMNSHO is a FUDD organization anyway (and I'm a Life Member)! MA DFW probably has the same rule for their Hunter Safety course.

 

[vellnueve]

FWIW, the NRA classroom at the NRA HQ range in Fairfax, VA has the same posted rule. I don't really have a problem with it.

 

[RKG]

There is a lot of firearms handling at those classes; the instructor requires that there be no ammunition present or accessible during the classes for the safety of all present. The instructors generally lead by example, as well.

During the class sessions, there is generally a lot of dry firing, and showing of all of the firearms present. Additionally, since those attending the class are inexperienced, they may not always follow the basic safety rules. By ensuring that there is no ammo in the classroom, safety is more assured.

Once the class sessions have ended, those who brought ammo may retrieve it.

I agree.