GOAL and the Outdoor Message - What the hell?

[ChargingCharlie]

My point is that a properly run member organization in the year 2011 should be readily understood by anyone anywhere. Clear financial reports should be public. Related party transactions in particular should be transparent and clearly explained. If the organization dictates a policy of hiding the ball from all but those who attend board meetings, then it is best that members be limited to those who plan to attend meetings.

I don't plan to attend meetings.

Financial reports for 501 (c)(3) organizations are public. All you need to do is go ask for them.

Bob P did exactly that and did not receive an answer to the issue he raised. I do believe it took the pitchford and torch approach to get ANY response from GOAL's BOD.

How many organizations do you know of that immediately give you answers to questions brought up at a BOD meeting? The normal procedure is to bring up your concerns at a BOD meeting and then they are those concerns are addressed at the next BOD meeting. Doesn't anyone have any patience anymore?

 

[mark056]

My point is that a properly run member organization in the year 2011 should be readily understood by anyone anywhere. Clear financial reports should be public. Related party transactions in particular should be transparent and clearly explained. If the organization dictates a policy of hiding the ball from all but those who attend board meetings, then it is best that members be limited to those who plan to attend meetings. I don't plan to attend meetings.

Then your vision of what GOAL should be with regard to how it presents things needs to be articulated and you need, if you are a member (I assume you are a member as much as I hate to use that word assume) to make your feelings known throughout the organization and consider trying to become an officer of that organization. On the face of it, the solution seems pretty simple to me. Merely complaining about how things should be will never effect change, unfortunately.

If you have passion about this, then do something.

 

[EC1]

If Aug. 11th is the next GOAL BOD meeting, where will it be?

 

[ChargingCharlie]

Then bring the news letter in house, sell ad space, make it available at a 'news stand price' for non members and use the revenue for GOAL and not a private company.

I'm sure GOAL has a few spare printing presses in the back closet That comment was more for fun than to be a dick, but how do you expect them to bring it in-house?

 

[economist]

Then your vision of what GOAL should be with regard to how it presents things needs to be articulated and you need, if you are a member (I assume you are a member as much as I hate to use that word assume) to make your feelings known throughout the organization and consider trying to become an officer of that organization. On the face of it, the solution seems pretty simple to me. Merely complaining about how things should be will never effect change, unfortunately.

If you have passion about this, then do something.

I just did.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

If Aug. 11th is the next GOAL BOD meeting, where will it be?

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...-Meeting-Schedule.-GOAL-Members-please-attend!

 

[mark056]

I just did.

You contacted GOAL ?

 

[Bob P]

I'm sure GOAL has a few spare printing presses in the back closet That comment was more for fun than to be a dick, but how do you expect them to bring it in-house?

From their website, I don't believe that the Outdoor Message is printing it either - so that's being outsourced anyway. Cut out the middle man. They're already writing the articles, have someone do the layout & ad sales. At least do a CBA on the issue to find out if it can be done cheaper and as a revenue source for GOAL. If it can't, it can't but at least the due diligence will have been done.

 

[Bob P]

How many organizations do you know of that immediately give you answers to questions brought up at a BOD meeting? The normal procedure is to bring up your concerns at a BOD meeting and then they are those concerns are addressed at the next BOD meeting. Doesn't anyone have any patience anymore?

I am very patient - until I've been ignored repeatedly. Then I get less so.

 

[M1911]

Could we all put down the pitchforks now and wait for the BOD reply?

 

[economist]

You contacted GOAL ?

I'm not playing this game where we pretend that the only way GOAL can hear us is if we call them or show up in person or write a damned letter. We all know they are aware of NES and what gets posted here. They can either operate above-board with clarity or they can get their money from someone other than me.

For the "read the 990 form" bunch, here is the latest I can find. Anyone taking the time to look at it can see that not every question gets answered in this standard form. Just for example, who gets $12,000 per year for "consulting" and what do they do?

 

[ChargingCharlie]

I am very patient - until I've been ignored repeatedly. Then I get less so.

I would hardly say that emailing them 5 times over the period of 6 weeks is being patient. BODs normally will not comment on anything currently being discussed/looked into by the BOD until they have answers. It's a pretty common practice with all different types of organizations and is usually done to prevent misinformation and rumors from spreading.

 

[ChargingCharlie]

I'm not playing this game where we pretend that the only way GOAL can hear us is if we call them or show up in person or write a damned letter. We all know they are aware of NES and what gets posted here. They can either operate above-board with clarity or they can get their money from someone other than me.

For the "read the 990 form" bunch, here is the latest I can find. Anyone taking the time to look at it can see that not every question gets answered in this standard form. Just for example, who gets $12,000 per year for "consulting" and what do they do?

If you are really that concerned about their financials then go to their office and ask for them. They are required by law to get them for you. I have to admit that I find it funny as hell that you're being so outspoken about how upset you are with GOAL, but you won't even contact them directly to voice your concerns.

 

[M1911]

If you are really that concerned about their financials then go to their office and ask for them. They are required by law to get them for you. I have to admit that I find it funny as hell that you're being so outspoken about how upset you are with GOAL, but you won't even contact them directly to voice your concerns.

Because it is far easier and more fun to throw stones on the internet than to get up from the keyboard...

 

[Bob P]

I would hardly say that emailing them 5 times over the period of 6 weeks is being patient. BODs normally will not comment on anything currently being discussed/looked into by the BOD until they have answers. It's a pretty common practice with all different types of organizations and is usually done to prevent misinformation and rumors from spreading.

Glad you're such an expert. I would have been happy with a 'we've formed a committee to look into it and report out on it at the next meeting.'

I didn't get that. What I did get was 'we'll get you an answer next week' and when next week came and I asked I got 'I don't have an answer yet' so when I asked when I could expect an answer I got an email from an atty telling me that I'll get an answer when 'we're ready to give you an answer'.

That tried my patience a bit. I've got the email chain but I don't think posting it here is necessary nor the right thing to do. See, I DO actually have some discretion and I don't want to damage GOAL. I DO want this issue addressed though and every indication I have received to date suggested it was being brushed under the carpet.

If you think I moved too quickly, I apologize. Be mad at me, I really don't care. My intent has always been to have this matter looked at. If there's nothing there, good. If there is, let's clean it up. If the OM still has a role to play, great, but let's look at it, talk about it and make some decisions based on something better than 'we've always done this.'

 

[Mike-Mike]

You guys realize that the people we hear from on NES. Mike S , Jon etc. They Posts about cookouts, training and call your legislator type alerts. They are not in a position to speak about how there boss spends money and why. I would bet that GOAL will release a statement before the weekend.

 

[hock2025]

Obviously I don’t post much but this thread caught my attention for some reason. I don’t know any of the parties involved and have no bias against them. Goal is necessary and does good work.

I am finding it easier to break it down into two issues.

1. Is the outdoor messenger a useful/effective use of goal funds?
2. Is someone benefitting financially from the publication of TOM and is that appropriate?

With regard to 1, I haven’t read TOM but certainly will the next time I get it. I do like the preaching to the choir argument someone mentioned previously. If it is going to goal members and affiliated clubs only, maybe the money is better spent somewhere else. If there is other info that is good to have passed along, maybe a simple flyer would suffice at a lesser cost.

With regard to 2, if you poke around in the corporate filings you have a nonprofit corporation (Goal) with officers that are also officers/directors of The Outdoor Messenger Collaborative which is a for profit corporation. We don’t know much about the Collaborative but its listed business is “newspaper,” some of its officers are also officers with goal, it shares an address with goal, and the daughter (presumed based on someones post above) of one of the officers is an officer herself. Asking questions about this relationship is fair game. Asking questions is not an indictment of goal.

I wonder if the goal board of directors have ever even gotten into the level of detail of how TOM is published, although they should now. They may have bills/reports presented to them that include the cost of the thing without ever thinking to question how it gets done or the entities involved. I would think the details of how it gets published would fall to the officers and others that are employed by goal.

That is my 2 cents.

 

[TWtommers]

In less than 24 hours there's almost 300 posts and people whipped up into a frenzy over something that is PERCEIVED to be some sort of impropriety. I hate to be a voice of sanity at the risk of dampening the joy of internet rioting but before I get all worked up over this I have a few more questions:

1. Is $96,000 a year a lot to run/print/mail a newsletter? I have no idea. I've never done one so I don't know.
2. If the answer to 1. is yes, does GOAL regularly run a bid for the business through multiple vendors? Is there some valid reason for choosing the vendor we have?

If $96,000 a year isn't a lot, then who cares? We're probably getting a good deal. If it is a lot but we bid it out and for some reason the vendor chosen is the best (and that can be validated in some concrete way) then that's alright too.

The only thing in any of this that upsets me a little, based on the reported facts, is that Bob P questioned this at a BOD meeting in June and no one told him when to expect an answer despite his repeated emails. I don't expect lightning answers for something I don't imagine is a simple answer but I do expect to be told when I can expect an adequate response. For this reason I understand Bob bringing this up here.

Questioning why GOAL runs a newsletter at all is an ENTIRELY different issue. I don't know the answer and I'd venture a guess that no one who has posted in this thread does. If I were interested enough to commit more of my spare time I'd head to the meeting ask if there was any data to support the benefits of the expenditure. My lack of time to do that does not warrant my bitching about it here.

 

[economist]

If you are really that concerned about their financials then go to their office and ask for them. They are required by law to get them for you. I have to admit that I find it funny as hell that you're being so outspoken about how upset you are with GOAL, but you won't even contact them directly to voice your concerns.

Because it is far easier and more phone to throw stones on the internet than to get up from the keyboard...

 

[BBQ.Uncle]

...The request for information was given to several BOD members to create a report. Our next meeting is August 11. Until the report is presented and approved it will not be released. BOD meetings are quarterly with special meetings called as needed and I attend several committee meetings depending on need. Feel free to call the office and find out when the next one is. As a member you are welcome...

Chris, first, prayers said for your Mom. I hope all is okay.

Thanks for responding on this. I'd like to express my concerns directly to the board, but I'm not sure if I can make it to the next meeting. Can you please tell me where I can find contact info for the B.O.D. members?

 

[Coyote33]

Speaking of the GOAL Board of Directors and billboards, I was just asking what ever came of their meeting over here. They were supposed to vote on approving a billboard. Maybe we all need to go to the next meeting and let them know what we think:

RKBA! billboard?

 

[Ink]

When I joined, I read about the newspaper i would be receiving. Thought it was cool and wondered about the cost. After reading my first issue, i figured all of the ads and pages from gun clubs were in exchange for extra donations to publish the paper.

If they, indeed are taking $8 a year from my dues, i could care less. GOAL is writing bills, informing, showing up at the state house, etc and i am quite happy with what they do. BUT I would be MUCH happier to see them do more, send me an email, dump the newspaper and put that money towards other fun stuff that drives the anti crowd batty!!
But, this is not the end of the world.
wait... was that a 12 ga racking.....

 

[Len-2A Training]

Chris,

Thanks for your response . . . it does add light to the situation raised here.

Sorry to hear about your Mother and hope all is well. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your Family!

I don't think they are unreasonable question either. But I do believe that goal would send out 6-8 (if not more) direct mailings a year that are now avoided because they can include the information in the paper. So the demise of the paper could actually cost more than to carry it. I think its a good discussion, but I think the "It would save $90k" Argument is not well founded.

I went thru the 990 form posted above. The $90+K number includes all printing costs from what I can see.

GOAL membership cards, stationary, envelopes, forms, law booklets, papers on various laws (put out at gun shows and also given to instructors to use as template handouts), etc. seem to be included in that number. A lot of this stuff is farmed out to printing companies and not done in-house (labor and proper printing equipment issues).

Since TOM is printed by another company, any ads they sell would naturally go in that company's coffers and NOT to GOAL. Selling advertising is very labor intensive, layout of a newspaper is a royal PITA and very time-consuming. Writing an article in Microsoft Word does not a newspaper make!!

Running a newspaper is a very tenuous operation financially and as I stated before led to the demise of an excellent computer society. NO WAY IN HELL I ever want GOAL to "bring it in house" as if it starts losing money, GOAL could be dragged under and die.

As Mark put it so well, some of us "old timers" do actually look at TOM to see what other clubs doing, what/where gun shows are being held, what matches are being held where/when, what courses are available where/when, etc. When I was looking to join a different club, reading some club notes/minutes in TOM contributed to some decision-making. I live on a computer, but hate reading large articles or books on-line . . . I much rather have print-copies. Other people would pick other options and that is fine.

Financial reports for 501 (c)(3) organizations are public. All you need to do is go ask for them.

How many organizations do you know of that immediately give you answers to questions brought up at a BOD meeting? The normal procedure is to bring up your concerns at a BOD meeting and then they are those concerns are addressed at the next BOD meeting. Doesn't anyone have any patience anymore?

This is the "instantaneous generation" with smartphones people expect a response within minutes. I'm sure that the financials involved will take some considerable time to gather up and calculate out.

 

[Coyote33]

In less than 24 hours there's almost 300 posts and people whipped up into a frenzy over something that is PERCEIVED to be some sort of impropriety. I hate to be a voice of sanity at the risk of dampening the joy of internet rioting but ....

... but why can't we get this worked up when it comes to a gun law hearing at the State House? Or to stand on a corner in support or opposition of someone like Martha Coakley or Jim McGovern?




Another thought: The Outdoor Message is a conduit for club newsletters. Guess what? Our club just voted to use the newspaper/newsletter of the Mass Sportsmen's Council to do the newsletter. I'm not sure whether or not it got approved in the end. There seems to be some, or lots of, overlap between GOAL and MSC. Our club is leaning away from GOAL and towards MSC for a lot of things.

 

[economist]

Since TOM is printed by another company, any ads they sell would naturally go in that company's coffers and NOT to GOAL. Selling advertising is very labor intensive, layout of a newspaper is a royal PITA and very time-consuming. Writing an article in Microsoft Word does not a newspaper make!!

Running a newspaper is a very tenuous operation financially and as I stated before led to the demise of an excellent computer society. NO WAY IN HELL I ever want GOAL to "bring it in house" as if it starts losing money, GOAL could be dragged under and die.

Help me out here. Let's say somebody ran a newspaper business and at some point costs exceeded revenue. At the same time they took in about $500K per year in fees and donations. Would they (a) keep losing money on the paper at a rate that bankrupted the entire organization, or (b) simply stop the paper business? It's not like someone is forcing GOAL to offer this newspaper, right?

The issue here, in any event, is not whether a bunch of old guys like newspapers.

 

[MassMark]

This is the "instantaneous generation" with smartphones people expect a response within minutes. I'm sure that the financials involved will take some considerable time to gather up and calculate out.

Sometimes, one can refer to the "instantaneous generation" as "progress". In that, comes evolution. While I understand that some of you old-timers, (which I am rapidly becoming), want to have a handy tactile publication to read - many are content with electronic media. Some even prefer it. Some also can decipher the financial particulars fairly easily and some just want clarity - transparency.

This entire thread could have been avoided had GOAL chosen to simply communicate with the OP that the matter to which he inquired was under review. They didn't. In the process, a door was opened to a box with more questions - especially regarding potential conflicts of interest. The "attend a board meeting" reply is rapidly becoming cliche. GOAL has an open-forum to address issues raised beyond the concerns of the OP and chooses not to. The standard bearing and deflecting do little to quell the concerns raised here. Accountability can happen electronically as well....

 

[yanici]

I'd opt out of receiving the OM if GOAL got to keep the 8 bucks but since they won't, there isn't much sense in doing it.

 

[Martlet]

Chris,

Thanks for your response . . . it does add light to the situation raised here.

Sorry to hear about your Mother and hope all is well. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your Family!




I went thru the 990 form posted above. The $90+K number includes all printing costs from what I can see.

GOAL membership cards, stationary, envelopes, forms, law booklets, papers on various laws (put out at gun shows and also given to instructors to use as template handouts), etc. seem to be included in that number. A lot of this stuff is farmed out to printing companies and not done in-house (labor and proper printing equipment issues).

Since TOM is printed by another company, any ads they sell would naturally go in that company's coffers and NOT to GOAL. Selling advertising is very labor intensive, layout of a newspaper is a royal PITA and very time-consuming. Writing an article in Microsoft Word does not a newspaper make!!

Running a newspaper is a very tenuous operation financially and as I stated before led to the demise of an excellent computer society. NO WAY IN HELL I ever want GOAL to "bring it in house" as if it starts losing money, GOAL could be dragged under and die.

As Mark put it so well, some of us "old timers" do actually look at TOM to see what other clubs doing, what/where gun shows are being held, what matches are being held where/when, what courses are available where/when, etc. When I was looking to join a different club, reading some club notes/minutes in TOM contributed to some decision-making. I live on a computer, but hate reading large articles or books on-line . . . I much rather have print-copies. Other people would pick other options and that is fine.




This is the "instantaneous generation" with smartphones people expect a response within minutes. I'm sure that the financials involved will take some considerable time to gather up and calculate out.

If all that is true, then let them sell subscriptions.

 

[Garys]

Sometimes, one can refer to the "instantaneous generation" as "progress". In that, comes evolution. While I understand that some of you old-timers, (which I am rapidly becoming), want to have a handy tactile publication to read - many are content with electronic media. Some even prefer it. Some also can decipher the financial particulars fairly easily and some just want clarity - transparency.

This entire thread could have been avoided had GOAL chosen to simply communicate with the OP that the matter to which he inquired was under review. They didn't. In the process, a door was opened to a box with more questions - especially regarding potential conflicts of interest. The "attend a board meeting" reply is rapidly becoming cliche. GOAL has an open-forum to address issues raised beyond the concerns of the OP and chooses not to. The standard bearing and deflecting do little to quell the concerns raised here. Accountability can happen electronically as well....

Nice summation of the issue. I'm not quite as old as LenS is, but I'm slowly weaning myself from dead tree publications. It's not easy, but it's certainly where the future lies. Transparency would help this issue immensely, as would a transition to a web based newsletter for GOAL.

 

[economist]

In the spirit of transparency, let's try this again.

Who gets the $12,000 per year consulting fee and what do they do?