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GOAL and the Outdoor Message - What the hell?
- Thread starter Bob P
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![[hmmm]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/009.gif "Hmm [hmmm]")
One group I belong to recently went to .PDF format and emails the newsletter. They may still print and mail for the members who prefer it, but I believe that number was under 5%.
The .PDF makes for a much nicer format, better layout and pictures, and saves a ton. Toss in advertising and GOAL likely could hire a part-time person to head the project and still make money.
Yeah, that's 100% fact.
He spends thousands on his extensive fannypack collection. It's an addiction.
They could hire a few part time people for $90,000 a year.
One possibility is that The Outdoor Message Cooperative does nothing but collect fees and ad revenue, some of which are used to pay a bulk mailer / printer to do the actual production. But I hate to speculate. GOAL should clarify these things.
![[angry]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/008.gif "Angry [angry]")
Boghog1
NES Member
I'm not reading all this BS, I like Derek and could care less if he made 100k a year off of NES memberships, the entertainment and knowledge I get from this site is worth five times what I pay a year
Agreed, I was there too. Mike/GOAL was purposefully ignored wrt Ch. 180, it was a bag-job by the gov't leadership. I was at the gun hearings prior to Ch. 180 and testified as did Mike.
There is so much mis-information in this thread that it is ridiculous.
Let's start at the top. I got involved with GOAL somewhere around 1976-7. Council of Sportsmen (or something like that) headed by Victor Anop was against everything that GOAL stood for. There was a major battle between the two groups . . . I suspect that it went back before Mike was even hired by GOAL.
One day I was talking with Mike (this was PRE-1998) and mentioned that I thought training was a good idea and Mike ripped me a new a**h*** that there should NEVER be mandatory training to own guns. So any thoughts that Mike supported a training requirement is pure BS.
Mike is Sicilian and he is passionate about the 2nd A . . . and he oftentimes would let that Sicilian temper explode and create enemies. I intentionally "cranked him" one day and he exploded at me which caused me to laugh uncontrollably that I had "got him" . . . resulting in both of us having a good laugh. There are many to this day that hate/don't understand Mike and thus have bad feelings for GOAL. That's life and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
A side story that may point out WHY GOAL setup a separate corporation to publish their newsletter . . .
I was a group leader for the late Boston Computer Society, which had 20K members at one time. BCS published 3 monthly publications (one was DOS/Windows, one was MAC and I can't recall the third one) all under a single corporation (BCS was a non-profit). BCS was hemorrhaging money (IIRC it was in the vicinity of $300+K/year loss) due to the costs of the publications and decided to close down the corporation rather than go into bankruptcy. If it weren't for the publications, the org would have continued to exist (the rest of operations were solvent).
Based on my experience with BCS, I would say that GOAL was very smart in setting up THREE corporations . . . The GOAL Foundation (non-profit) owns the building and runs all the training (Jon Green's operation) is one corp.; GOAL the lobbying org is NOT a non-profit and does what it does, including paying The GOAL Foundation RENT for the use of the building; and The Outdoor Message which has been run by Michele for many years as a different FOR PROFIT corporation. If any of you actually read the mast-heads in The Outdoor Message (before you burned it for kindling) you would KNOW this . . . it's never been a secret to those of us who actually read the publication and/or attend the GOAL Annual Meetings.
Bottom line is that if the publication of TOM ever gets into financial trouble, GOAL itself is insulated from any liability. That's a good thing.
Some won't read TOM, just like some won't read the NRA pubs either. BUT many rely on it for info and if they ceased to exist, many would drop their membership. Hardcopy pubs "fog the mirror" for many people, even if they don't read them.
Having been a member of a 100% GOAL club that used TOM for their meeting notices/minutes . . . said club later dropped the 100% GOAL requirement, etc. And I'm currently a member of another club that is NOT 100% GOAL and uses TOM for their meeting notices/minutes, I KNOW how the charges to the clubs work. If the club is 100% GOAL, there is NO CHARGE to publish in TOM!!! If the club is NOT 100% GOAL, then the club must submit a membership list with addresses to cross check GOAL members from non-GOAL members . . . only a single copy is sent to each club member (no charge to club for GOAL members, ~$8/year for each person NOT a GOAL member). TOM gets paid ads, but does NOT charge clubs/instructors for listings (events/classes) in the back of each TOM.
Paper, ink, printing costs, mailing costs probably eat up a good portion of that ~$8/year charge. I don't think that Mike and Michele are getting rich on this deal, but they probably do make a bit of money off the ads.
TOM was created back around the founding of GOAL and it was the ONLY way to get the word out on what's happening. Technology has changed and I do believe that an e-copy alternative should be offered to those that want it and that is a good question for the GOAL BOD to deal with.
Wrong. Weld resigned in 1997. Cellucci signed it.
http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/SessionLaws/Acts/1998/Chapter180
CHAPTER 180 AN ACT RELATIVE TO GUN CONTROL IN THE COMMONWEALTH. (see Senate, No. 1985, amended) Approved by the Acting Governor, July 23, 1998
Is it a distortion to say that your union dues as a former MA police officer supported the lobby that gave us the 1998 gun law? I'm well aware that there's no love lost for Yacino among that community. He butted heads with them on Beacon Hill for years.
Lots of info is shared at the Annual Meeting, but little is printed. GOAL KNOWS that the Brady Bunch gets their printed matter and wants to limit what they can get and use against us, thus details are often given strictly verbally at these meetings. Too bad almost nobody is interested enough to spend an hour going to the meeting . . . and many would rather spend hours getting their panties twisted in a bunch over someone allegedly making money.
That's nice Len. So what you're saying is a guy who is on the BOD or affiliated in some way with the BOD of a non-profit is also on the board of a FOR profit that the non-profit pays a substantial amount of money to yearly in what appears to be a no-bid deal.
Thanks for clarifying that for us.
Thanks for clarifying that for us.
Some of us find merit in reading what other clubs in our area are doing, how they run their club, what they have to offer, etc.
I don't read all of TOM, but some of it. There is more to it than strictly what GOAL is doing as an org.
I also won't disagree with those that call for transparency in what costs are and where the money goes.
I don't read all of TOM, but some of it. There is more to it than strictly what GOAL is doing as an org.
I also won't disagree with those that call for transparency in what costs are and where the money goes.
+1. JW's numbers are all based off that skinflint shared server garbage, that nobody with a brain in IT uses. Bandwidth costs have come down, but it's still pretty expensive. A few years ago I managed a mail server for only 100 users and to do it right it cost more than what he's quoting.
That skinflint stuff for the $100/mo unlimited bandwidth or whatever it is, is basically the fung wah bus of hosting. When the bus catches on fire and/or drives into a ditch because the driver is s**tfaced, don't complain to the owners... because nobody is gonna answer the phone.
![[laugh]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/012.gif "Laugh [laugh]")
-Mike
richc
NES Member
- Yacino has a right to produce a gun related newspaper, and make a profit.
- GOAL's BOD has a right to spend the dues in a manner that they think is best for the org and membership
We can agree or disagree on the value of the Outdoor Message to GOAL.
Here's the rub as I see it. GOAL is a nonprofit run by a board of directors spending what appears to be a very large percentage of the organization's resources on the Outdoor Message. Yacino was a member of the BOD for many, many years and he and family members appear to have a significant financial interest in producing the Outdoor Message.
The BOD is responsible for adherence to legal standards and ethical norms. Board members have a legal responsibility to assure the prudent management of an organization's resources.
Yacino and family are on the one hand profiting from the Outdoor Message, and on the other hand he is on the board of the organization that appears to provide most of his revenue. This is a HUGE conflict of interest.
Agree or disagree about the value of the Outdoor Message. Agree or disagree about whether GOAL's BOD should fund this resource or not.
My problem is with a board member and his family profiting from these choices and decisions. That, IMHO, is damn wrong.
Best,
Rich
- GOAL's BOD has a right to spend the dues in a manner that they think is best for the org and membership
We can agree or disagree on the value of the Outdoor Message to GOAL.
Here's the rub as I see it. GOAL is a nonprofit run by a board of directors spending what appears to be a very large percentage of the organization's resources on the Outdoor Message. Yacino was a member of the BOD for many, many years and he and family members appear to have a significant financial interest in producing the Outdoor Message.
The BOD is responsible for adherence to legal standards and ethical norms. Board members have a legal responsibility to assure the prudent management of an organization's resources.
Yacino and family are on the one hand profiting from the Outdoor Message, and on the other hand he is on the board of the organization that appears to provide most of his revenue. This is a HUGE conflict of interest.
Agree or disagree about the value of the Outdoor Message. Agree or disagree about whether GOAL's BOD should fund this resource or not.
My problem is with a board member and his family profiting from these choices and decisions. That, IMHO, is damn wrong.
Best,
Rich
I'm not claiming that The GOAL Foundation was formed when GOAL was formed. I do think it happened later but your response jogs my memory about the merger. I was merely pointing out that there are three corps involved and each one is thus insulated from the other for either tax reasons or protection that if one fails it doesn't bring down all operations.
I jumped into the gun scene after the 1976 election so I have no first-hand knowledge prior to that. I know that post that election GOAL and Vic did not get along and Vic tried sabotaging whatever GOAL was trying to do . . . not sure if this started before or after Mike Yacino came on that scene.
I get it, you hate Mike and I like him as a person and respect what he did for gun owners. His personality sometimes got in the way and he did make many enemies. I saw some of this first-hand and I also had a hand in patching one of those relationships.
Are there valid questions about the relationship between TOM and GOAL, YES!
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Yell at me if you want for this idea.
Why doesn't GOAL suspend paying $90k to the Outdoor Message for 1 year and instead put it toward the 2A billboard idea mentioned in another thread? Just for 1 year. How much billboard time (along the pike) could that buy?
Why doesn't GOAL suspend paying $90k to the Outdoor Message for 1 year and instead put it toward the 2A billboard idea mentioned in another thread? Just for 1 year. How much billboard time (along the pike) could that buy?
dwarven1
Lonely Mountain Arms
I've been a GOAL member for many years - I always knew that TOM wasn't owned by GOAL. Speaking for myself, I read The Outdoor Message every month. I like that I can see what other clubs are doing, and when, for example, various shoots are held. Strangely enough, that info isn't always on NES. (I tend to like looking for pin shoots, for example - or seeing what Independent in Foxboro has for it's shoots that are open to the public every couple of weeks)
Some clubs use their page in TOM as their newsletter - saves them the postage, printing and TIME to put something together themselves.
Not everyone has email and a computer to get the GOAL Friday news. Print media still has a purpose. Hardcopy still makes good giveaways to those who don't belong yet - ever see the stack of Outdoor Messages that they bring to gun shows, etc? Many instructors get a stack to give out to their students, the ones who are just getting their first FIDs or LTCs.
There's a notice every month in every TOM about telling their club if they're a GOAL member so that the club isn't paying for that member's TOM.
It would be nice to see about perhaps getting it on Nooks or Kindles - for those that don't want the paper. But not if it would cost GOAL even more money.
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Rich,
You are wrong on several points.
- GOAL is NOT a non-profit! IRS does NOT allow non-profits to be lobbying orgs unless the "Big O" specifically approves of them! (fact but sarcasm included)
- Yacino was NOT a member of the GOAL BOD! Mike Yacino was NOT President of GOAL. Mike Yacino was "Executive Director" (title that Jim holds today) . . . that means that he was HIRED HELP by the BOD!! Recently Mike is listed as Counsel to the BOD under Officers (I don't recall seeing that prior to the past year or so) but he's not an elected BOD member . . . I don't think that he has ever been elected to the GOAL BOD.
- Yes there is a relationship between the Yacinos (plural) and GOAL. I don't think that Michele has ever served on the GOAL BOD either. So the GOAL BOD "hires" the Yacinos to publish TOM. It's an employer-employee relationship. I'm not going to attest that it is proper or not, but just setting the record straight as to what the relationship is.
I should call in to work tomorrow and just watch this thread all day. Very informative/intriguing. When I first started getting the OM, I tried to read through it fully, but my interest slowly waned and now, I do a once over before it goes into recycling.
Would love to see my money going to ONLY to GOAL.
Would love to see my money going to ONLY to GOAL.
W
wolf223
richc
NES Member
Hi Len,
Thanks for the corrections. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if all the info you offer is correct, or not, however. I did do some research to see what I could find out.
I do understand there's a number of organizations that make up GOAL, including GOAL, Inc. and the GOAL Foundation. I guess I knew that, but I was able to find separate financial filings made to the IRS for both of them. That was helpful.
You mention that GOAL is not a nonprofit. I came to the conclusion that is was a nonprofit by surfing the web and finding an IRS Form 990 filed by Gun Owners Action League Inc, and listing "MICHAEL YACINO CEO" as the signing officer of this form.
This IRS form also says the following:
"State the name, physical address, and telephone number ofthe person who possesses the books and records of the organization:
Michael Yacino 37 Pierce Road Northboro,MA 01532 (508) 393-5333"
So maybe everything I said is not correct, but perhaps you can see why I am confused by all this. It would appear that Yacino is in a position of significant authority and responsibility with regards to the Gun Owners Action League, Inc. Does this make sense?
Also, thank you for mentioning that Yacino is listed as "of counsel to the board of directors". Do you know if this is a volunteer position, or is it a paid position? I ask because the IRS form 990 shows an expense of $12,000 for consultants, and I wondered if there was any connection.
Finally, GOAL obviously pays rent for the office space they use. That's only fair. A while back I was chatting with someone at the range who said Yacino owns the building GOAL is in. Is this yet another source of income for Yacino from the GOAL organizations?
Len, here's the thing. Before tonight I had not given all this much thought. I pay my dues and appreciate what GOAL does. I followed some of the bread crumbs floating in this thread and learned some things that are of concern.
If the guy who is listed on these IRS forms as CEO of nonprofits also benefits financially from these organizations, at a minimum these relationships need to be explored and made public to the members who support the organization. That is only fair...
Len, I'd happily address any and all concerns you have with accuracy. Personally I'd just like to know the truth about it all.
Is that something we can agree on... the truth?
Best,
Rich
Thanks for the corrections. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if all the info you offer is correct, or not, however. I did do some research to see what I could find out.
I do understand there's a number of organizations that make up GOAL, including GOAL, Inc. and the GOAL Foundation. I guess I knew that, but I was able to find separate financial filings made to the IRS for both of them. That was helpful.
You mention that GOAL is not a nonprofit. I came to the conclusion that is was a nonprofit by surfing the web and finding an IRS Form 990 filed by Gun Owners Action League Inc, and listing "MICHAEL YACINO CEO" as the signing officer of this form.
This IRS form also says the following:
"State the name, physical address, and telephone number ofthe person who possesses the books and records of the organization:
Michael Yacino 37 Pierce Road Northboro,MA 01532 (508) 393-5333"
So maybe everything I said is not correct, but perhaps you can see why I am confused by all this. It would appear that Yacino is in a position of significant authority and responsibility with regards to the Gun Owners Action League, Inc. Does this make sense?
Also, thank you for mentioning that Yacino is listed as "of counsel to the board of directors". Do you know if this is a volunteer position, or is it a paid position? I ask because the IRS form 990 shows an expense of $12,000 for consultants, and I wondered if there was any connection.
Finally, GOAL obviously pays rent for the office space they use. That's only fair. A while back I was chatting with someone at the range who said Yacino owns the building GOAL is in. Is this yet another source of income for Yacino from the GOAL organizations?
Len, here's the thing. Before tonight I had not given all this much thought. I pay my dues and appreciate what GOAL does. I followed some of the bread crumbs floating in this thread and learned some things that are of concern.
If the guy who is listed on these IRS forms as CEO of nonprofits also benefits financially from these organizations, at a minimum these relationships need to be explored and made public to the members who support the organization. That is only fair...
Len, I'd happily address any and all concerns you have with accuracy. Personally I'd just like to know the truth about it all.
Is that something we can agree on... the truth?
Best,
Rich
Simple facts.
Many GOAL members are totally unaware that 1/3 of their dues are going to promote a publication that really doesn't do anything for us.
There is no way to opt out.
The money is better spent on other means. $90000 could buy a nice Porsche.![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
There is a conflict of interest going on.
Many GOAL members are totally unaware that 1/3 of their dues are going to promote a publication that really doesn't do anything for us.
There is no way to opt out.
The money is better spent on other means. $90000 could buy a nice Porsche.
There is a conflict of interest going on.
Palladin
NES Member
Rich,
Yes, we can agree that the truth should be sought out by those interested.
How old is the 990 form. If it was back from when Mike was Exec Dir, then he was the CEO back then. If it is current, I don't understand why he'd be listed as CEO??
I've been told that "The GOAL Foundation" owns the building. I was told this by a long time staff person who I trust and I was told that info more than one time over the years.
Per IRS Regs there is a very important difference between a Non-Profit and a "Not for profit" org. The former can not be a lobbying group while the latter can be. Fraternal orgs, chambers of commerce, unions, and gun orgs are typically in the "not for profit" category [501 C 6 or 501 C 7]. Donations to a Non-Profit [501 C 3] are typically tax-deductible while donations to these other groups are NOT tax-deductible as a charitable contribution (but may be a business expense depending on what business you are in). I hope that clarifies this a bit better.
I've never looked up the tax records for GOAL or ancillary orgs to verify what I've been told.
Yes, we can agree that the truth should be sought out by those interested.
How old is the 990 form. If it was back from when Mike was Exec Dir, then he was the CEO back then. If it is current, I don't understand why he'd be listed as CEO??
I've been told that "The GOAL Foundation" owns the building. I was told this by a long time staff person who I trust and I was told that info more than one time over the years.
Per IRS Regs there is a very important difference between a Non-Profit and a "Not for profit" org. The former can not be a lobbying group while the latter can be. Fraternal orgs, chambers of commerce, unions, and gun orgs are typically in the "not for profit" category [501 C 6 or 501 C 7]. Donations to a Non-Profit [501 C 3] are typically tax-deductible while donations to these other groups are NOT tax-deductible as a charitable contribution (but may be a business expense depending on what business you are in). I hope that clarifies this a bit better.
I've never looked up the tax records for GOAL or ancillary orgs to verify what I've been told.
richc
NES Member
Len, it is a 2009 IRS Form 990. As Palladin indicates, it shows $96K for publications. It also lists $14K+ for postage. Is GOAL paying for postage for The Outdoor Message? That seems to be a lot of postage in this era of the internet and email.
And thank you for explaining the difference between "non-profit" and "not for profit"... as I said this is all so confusing, and I'd really just like to understand the truth of it all.
Best,
Rich
And thank you for explaining the difference between "non-profit" and "not for profit"... as I said this is all so confusing, and I'd really just like to understand the truth of it all.
Best,
Rich
I suspect that the $14K postage is NOT TOM, but other mailings. Every new/renewed member gets a new membership card ($0.44), mailings for elections, one or two other mailings/year add up quickly.
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