Getting a lawyer?

Mikey

Mikey

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I am not really sure how to ask this but god forbid you ever need a “firearms” lawyer what do you do? I am not talking about getting help to assure issuing of an LTC or something like that but a more serious situation like you had to use a firearm in self defense.

Obviously I know there are a few lawyers on NES but I don’t know any personally so what is the best way to be prepared?

Do lawyers expect calls out of the blue by people they don’t know saying “help me”?

Do you talk to the police at all or wait for counsel?

And so on and so on, get what I mean?
 
Mikey said:
I am not really sure how to ask this but god forbid you ever need a “firearms” lawyer what do you do? I am not talking about getting help to assure issuing of an LTC or something like that but a more serious situation like you had to use a firearm in self defense.

Obviously I know there are a few lawyers on NES but I don’t know any personally so what is the best way to be prepared?

Do lawyers expect calls out of the blue by people they don’t know saying “help me”?

Do you talk to the police at all or wait for counsel?

And so on and so on, get what I mean?
Click to expand...

1. Not to be glib but: The best way to be prepared is to avoid conflict whenever possible. When avoidance in not possible, see No 3.

2. Don't know, never had to call one for this reason so far.

3. NO ! Shut the heck up !

I'm going to sound like I work for GOAL here but;

Take GOAL's "Concealed Carry" class. There's one coming up in February.
Darius and Jon will answer your all questions and a few you haven't thought of yet.

I believe someone is offering some kind of "Self defense" insurance the through the NRA, it's been the subject of discussion on other boards.
I don't know that much about it other than it may pay a portion of your legal fees if you need to defend yourself in court after defending yourself on the streets.
 
Do you talk to the police at all or wait for counsel?
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Certainly. If you don't talk to them, they will not hear those magic words "I do not wish to answer any questions without first consulting with my attorney".
 
Mikey said:
I am not really sure how to ask this but god forbid you ever need a “firearms” lawyer what do you do? I am not talking about getting help to assure issuing of an LTC or something like that but a more serious situation like you had to use a firearm in self defense.

Obviously I know there are a few lawyers on NES but I don’t know any personally so what is the best way to be prepared?

Do lawyers expect calls out of the blue by people they don’t know saying “help me”?

Do you talk to the police at all or wait for counsel?

And so on and so on, get what I mean?
Click to expand...

A few generalized observations, based on what I learned from Mas Ayoob in his 40 hour LFI I class.

NEVER talk to the cops before your lawyer gets there. Talking to the cops is usually a desperate attempt to keep from being charged - "IF only I can explain what happened, they'll understand and let me go. I won't have to spend all that money on a lawyer, the newspapers won't print a story saying I've been charged with a horrible crime, I won't have to call my job and tell them I won't be in because I'm in JAIL, etc, etc, etc."

You have almost zero chance of talking your way out of being charged - if THAT can be done, it will be your lawyer who does it, not you - and a VERY good chance you will inadvertantly say SOMETHING that will not only GUARANTEE you will be charged, but will also hurt you badly when you go to trial.

If at all possible, you are better off with the best possible lawyer you can get right from the beginning, but remember, you can change lawyers at any time. You are not stuck with the lawyer who comes down and tries to talk the police out of charging you.

A Justifiable Homicide or Self-Defense Defense is a VERY specialized situation. Most lawyers don't know how to conduct one properly. (Mas claims that most lawyers have never had an innocent client and don't know how to defend an innocent person. They specialize in getting plea bargains for the guilty.)

Look for a lawyer with experience in this field. (NOT necessarilly a "Firearms Attorney". Two separate things.) The various police unions often know who the good ones are and keep them on retainer to defend their members when they are accused of excessive or illegal use of force.

It is also possible to check a lawyers win/loss record down at the courthouse. Obviously, you want to try to convince someone who usually WINS his cases to take your case.

Regards
John
 
I am very interested in this subject. Does anyone know the approximate amount of cash one would have to have on hand to have a good attorney do the initial work you will need to have done?

PS. I also would add that the advice of knowing the law and staying out of trouble, while always good advice, is somewhat off the subject. If you use your gun in this state you will immediately need an attorney...hence, the OP's original question.
 
I'm curious about this as well, and I wonder if anyone knows about insurance for legal expenses? I'd be more interested in paying a yearly premium than worrying about having 30 grand available all the time, just in case something horrible happened.
 
I don't know if it will help me or not as I have never needed it but I keep the numbers of three attorneys who specialize in firearms (not that I even know if they will take my call), and the number of one defense lawyer who is a former prosecutor (a friend of mine) in my cell phone and accessible at home just in case. You can bet that if you ever un-holster (note: I didn't even say shoot) your firearm in a self defense situation in Massachusetts, expect a legal S***storm. If you are not charged with anything, and your rights are not further restricted, thank the Lord and move on. Also, I would never talk to a cop without legal counsel in a situation where I was or could be a suspect. Just my .02 so take it FWIW.
 
Gabe said:
I'm curious about this as well, and I wonder if anyone knows about insurance for legal expenses? I'd be more interested in paying a yearly premium than worrying about having 30 grand available all the time, just in case something horrible happened.
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Insurance can be tricky. Policies are often worded to exclude deliberate acts on your part, and only cover "accidents".

Self Defense shootings are about as deliberate as it gets. Your defense is not "I didn't do it, someone else did." it's "I did it because I thought it needed doing."

So review any legal insurance policy VERY carefully to see what it covers and what it doesn't.

Regards
John
 
massnee said:
I am very interested in this subject. Does anyone know the approximate amount of cash one would have to have on hand to have a good attorney do the initial work you will need to have done?

PS. I also would add that the advice of knowing the law and staying out of trouble, while always good advice, is somewhat off the subject. If you use your gun in this state you will immediately need an attorney...hence, the OP's original question.
Click to expand...

When I last took LFI several years ago, the estimate at that time was that a first class defense against murder charges was gonna cost you between 50 and 100 grand.

Regards
John
 
Ripach said:
I don't know if it will help me or not as I have never needed it but I keep the numbers of three attorneys who specialize in firearms (not that I even know if they will take my call), and the number of one defense lawyer who is a former prosecutor (a friend of mine) in my cell phone and accessible at home just in case. You can bet that if you ever un-holster (note: I didn't even say shoot) your firearm in a self defense situation in Massachusetts, expect a legal S***storm. If you are not charged with anything, and your rights are not further restricted, thank the Lord and move on. Also, I would never talk to a cop without legal counsel in a situation where I was or could be a suspect. Just my .02 so take it FWIW.
Click to expand...


Agreed. I keep a one of our resident attorney's cell phone number in my cell phone. And another one's card in my wallet. I also gave the numbers to my wife, and to a friend.

While I don't ever expect to have to call them other than to say Hi, and see how things are going. I have them just in case.


And, from being a little hellion when I was a kid. Yes, they expect to be called on the phone in the middle of the night. And, depending on what's going on, they will be there right away...or for good reasons, be there in the morning. [wink]

But, like it was said....tell them that you're more than happy to talk to them, but you want to wait for your representation.
 
Doesn't the NRA pay for & supply you with a lawyer if you are a member and are within your rights. Like if some clown breaks into your home and you shoot him, he lives.... and then tries to sues you because you shot him...(this example is only if the clown lives)
I think they do $30.00 a year beats $50 to $100 grand....
 
Why not pop off an message to one of the lawyers on the list and ask them? I know that at least one of them would be happy to have you call if you needed him. You might also consider asking that lawyer to help with a house closing or other personal paperwork just so you get some face time.

I keep one of their numbers in my cell and their card in my wallet.

If something happens, he'll get a call.

I think others handled the "talk to the cops" issue above just fine. In a word - DON'T.

Seriously, a lot of your questions would be answered by taking an appropriate class.
 
Lawyer

Chris said:
Why not pop off an message to one of the lawyers on the list and ask them? I know that at least one of them would be happy to have you call if you needed him. You might also consider asking that lawyer to help with a house closing or other personal paperwork just so you get some face time.

I keep one of their numbers in my cell and their card in my wallet.

If something happens, he'll get a call.

I think others handled the "talk to the cops" issue above just fine. In a word - DON'T.

Seriously, a lot of your questions would be answered by taking an appropriate class.
Click to expand...
*******
I`m waiting for one of the Lawyers that frequent this list to chime in on this subject. Better to get the info from the experts.
 
Gabe said:
I'm curious about this as well, and I wonder if anyone knows about insurance for legal expenses? I'd be more interested in paying a yearly premium than worrying about having 30 grand available all the time, just in case something horrible happened.
Click to expand...

If you carry or think that you will use a firearm in self defense, I strongly urge you to take the GOAL course on the "Art of Concealed Carry" http://www.thegoalfoundation.org/coursedescriptions.htm#concealed carry

In that course, I learned about NRA liability insurance with a self-defense rider that I now have and annually renew: http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/selfdefense.asp

The $250/year helps me sleep at night in this anti-2A state. It is the only way that I can protect myself and my family from going bankrupt if I use a firearm in self defense.
 
NRA Insurance

P-14 said:
If you carry or think that you will use a firearm in self defense, I strongly urge you to take the GOAL course on the "Art of Concealed Carry" http://www.thegoalfoundation.org/coursedescriptions.htm#concealed carry

In that course, I learned about NRA liability insurance with a self-defense rider that I now have and annually renew: http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/selfdefense.asp

The $250/year helps me sleep at night in this anti-2A state. It is the only way that I can protect myself and my family from going bankrupt if I use a firearm in self defense.
Click to expand...
********
I will have to look into the GOAL course. Anyone have any additional info on the NRA insurance? Pro`s, Con`s? I`m considering it.
 
What I learned what to do from watching "Personal Defense TV" with Mossad Ayoob. (this is not legal advice, just rules I follow by, and I take no responsibility of this statement)

In the event of an incident, they said to do this.
  1. Call the police immediately on your cell with your name, location, and the situation that has or was happening. "this is xxxxx, I am calling to report a robbery in progress, we need the police and ambulance at yyyy."
  2. When the police arrive tell them where all the weapons are.
  3. Tell them who the witnesses are.
  4. Tell them you will sign the complaint.
  5. Tell them you will now use your right to remain silent, and you will give them full cooperation 24 hours after you speak with council.

Don't say anything else! Now call your Lawyer. NES has good ones.
 
P-14 said:
If you carry or think that you will use a firearm in self defense, I strongly urge you to take the GOAL course on the "Art of Concealed Carry" http://www.thegoalfoundation.org/coursedescriptions.htm#concealed carry

In that course, I learned about NRA liability insurance with a self-defense rider that I now have and annually renew: http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/selfdefense.asp

The $250/year helps me sleep at night in this anti-2A state. It is the only way that I can protect myself and my family from going bankrupt if I use a firearm in self defense.
Click to expand...
Thanks P-14. Good stuff.

[grin]
 
P-14 said:
If you carry or think that you will use a firearm in self defense, I strongly urge you to take the GOAL course on the "Art of Concealed Carry" http://www.thegoalfoundation.org/coursedescriptions.htm#concealed carry

In that course, I learned about NRA liability insurance with a self-defense rider that I now have and annually renew: http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/selfdefense.asp

The $250/year helps me sleep at night in this anti-2A state. It is the only way that I can protect myself and my family from going bankrupt if I use a firearm in self defense.
Click to expand...

Looks like there is a cheaper option as well.

It says $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit, where are you supposed to get the money from before hand? Loan Shark? Or would a nice lawyer let you postpone payment until you insurance premium paid out?
 
It says $50,000 criminal defense reimbursement sub-limit
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Also, this only covers the case if charges are dropped or acquited. Since the payment is conditional, you are about as likely to get an attorney to "wait for the insurance" as you are to get one to agree to waive the fee if you are convicted. It's not that easy for an attorney to withdraw from a case (the court has to approve it), which is one reason why money is paid up front in advance of services.

In many cases, the defendant will start out talking tough about their "day in court" but, when faced with the realities of the system, will take a plea bargain even if they honestly believe they are innocent.

Furthermore, this would not appear to cover the thousands in legal fees protecting one's rights prior to any criminal action - getting the lawyer to be present during quesitoning, reviewing the case to be ready in case charges are filed, etc.

Like most NRA insurance, this one resembles Swiss cheese.
 
I have 3 respected Lawyers in my cell phone, Keith Langer, Darius Arbabi, Jesse Cohen. If I had a serious issue, I would call them before I call the police.
 
do you have to tell these lawyers before hand that in the instance that you use deadly force I will be calling you to represent me? Or do you just call any good lawyer up?
 
Fsorrent said:
do you have to tell these lawyers before hand that in the instance that you use deadly force I will be calling you to represent me?
Click to expand...

No. Although it might make sense to establish a relationship with the attorney first.

Or do you just call any good lawyer up?
Click to expand...

Bad idea. Lawyers specialize, like doctors. Your family practice doctor is probably very competent, but he is not the one to go when considering which type of hip replacement to choose. Similarly, the attorney who did your real estate closing or will is unlikely to be experienced in criminal matters. Furthermore, most criminal attorneys are unlikely to have dealt with a true self defense case and may make a hash of it.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Also, this only covers the case if charges are dropped or acquited.
Click to expand...

If the charges aren't dropped or acquitted, then it wasn't self defense, was it? The issue is being out $50K if it was self defense with no other chance of reimbursement.

Cash flow is another issue between you and your attorney. I can get my hands on $50K through a home equity loan if I needed it. But losing that $50K to defend myself for a righteous shoot is another story. That's why I have insurance and a good attorney (Thanks, Cross-X), if I ever need them.
 

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