If geography is a constraint, then you will basically be forced to "eat poop and like it" if you want to shoot, unless by chance you happen to live near one of the "Clubs that doesn't suck" (tm).
-Mike
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Fudd sighting: marshvegas
- Thread starter Mass-diver
- Start date
If geography is a constraint, then you will basically be forced to "eat poop and like it" if you want to shoot, unless by chance you happen to live near one of the "Clubs that doesn't suck" (tm).
-Mike
Quiet
Banned
After watching that video, I don't think anyone could possibly argue that ricochets off the ground reflect at the angle of incidence.
Portagee
NES Member
This
FrugalFannie
NES Member
It's not an irrational fear especially on the 200/300 yard ranges as there is houses behind it. All we need is a moon bat to walk out on their deck and see a bullet on it, not even lodged in it.
Ever seen the roof of the clubhouse? littered with bullets from rants opposite it - so yes, skipping happens. this is why targets must be off the ground and you must qualify on the ranges where people are more likely to have rounds skipping if they hit the ground in front of the berm instead of the berm.
Mass-diver
NES Member
Who told you that was the reason for the round limit?
It's my understanding that the current RO (among others) supports lifting the mag limit as it makes zero sense. The club was there before all the neighbors anyways, plus, the overall noise coming from the range has a lot more to with the calibers being shot and the total number of people shooting, than the number of rounds per mag.
I've been a member if the club for 10 years, the fact that there are a large number of FUDDs that hate military style weapons is an indisputable fact.
Let me guess, you don't want them to bring the gong back either?
FrugalFannie
NES Member
I have. I'm the current VP and I did an extensive walk around of the berms this year while collecting samples for analysis with a company out there. We inspected the berms for content, location of content, and ricochet hazards. We live in freaking New England! This area grows rocks out of nothing. You put up a berm thats all sand and see how quick rocks migrate out the sides and top. Harvard has been around a long time. We take safety seriously. The rules have to be made with ALL of our members in mind - the experienced and inexperienced.
boilermaker
NES Member
You would be amazed at the stupid things people do on ranges. If you are just a casual member you likely don't get word about or see what happens on these ranges. For example, shooting pistols up at the trap range that has no berm because 2 other people are shooting at the pistol range, great idea! Or bring a steel plate target but no way to secure it, so lean it up against a rock at a 45 degree angle pointing over the berm, fabulous! Or shooting sideways across a rifle range into an area with very little berm, what could go wrong!
I understand that some clubs might go to far but it is likely in response to people's stupidity. The damage around the firing line is just the stupidity you get to see first-hand, it goes way beyond that.
I understand that some clubs might go to far but it is likely in response to people's stupidity. The damage around the firing line is just the stupidity you get to see first-hand, it goes way beyond that.
Asaltweapon
NES Member
That was before I came to Maynard, so I had to Google a little, and might as well share what I found:
But the homeowners still call the cops when they hear gunfire:
I'm within earshot of the club, and it sounds like there is never more than one person there. They sure are trying hard to keep it quiet.
namedpipes
NES Member
It isn't about physics. It's about dipshits that can't hit the broadside of a barn from inside the barn.
They exist. They really, really do.
A range has two defenses against that sort of shooter: 1) Bar them using some sort of skills test (which still won't detect yahooligans) or 2) Set rules or "no blue sky" environments so that the idiots CAN'T screw it up for the 95% of the membership that shoots well.
An interesting question. I know Southborough Rod & Gun created a box around the berm at the outdoor pistol pit for just this reason. The box is made of railroad ties. It is used for things like bowling pin shoots. I'm pretty sure the inside of this box has been chewed up pretty badly, but I'm going to check.
I have not. It is a rare day/time when both the sun is up and someone isn't shooting somewhere at HSC. There are ranges on the other side of that hill. I prefer to remain non-perforated. I'm glad PennyPincher has performed the research and data collection, though.
Well, I was a DECcie in Maynard from 1980 until 1993 and the problems that the club was having with the neighborhood that was being built there was a constant subject of conversation amongst us back then (DEC Firearms Notesfile). IIRC that was well before the range noise protection law was passed.
Having been involved in town gov't (Town Meeting) for 40 years I can tell you that regardless of any law to the contrary, citizens and towns have, and will continue to, pass local bylaws to attempt to negatively impact any clubs, hunting, etc. activities that they don't like. Constant vigilance is required.
Asaltweapon
NES Member
Maynard was once a club with over 600 members. I think the houses went in 12-15 years ago. I have no idea when the range protection law went into effect. As I heard it the club went broke fighting all the homeowners. Maynard was a great club back in it's day but I was a Westford resident back in 81 when I first got my LTC so I was a member there. Shot a few matches @ MR&G over the years.
Nope, DEC left me 22 years ago and it was well before that when the houses were built on the Sudbury side and trouble began.
Asaltweapon
NES Member
Len,
I was under the assumption that the problem came from the neighbors much closer. Time flies as I get older. Shot Gallery indoors there as well as .22 metallic silhouette for fun. It was years later when I got back into Gallery and Trap.
These parts had an influx of DEC people I've learned. For Westford it was the Wang guys.
I was under the assumption that the problem came from the neighbors much closer. Time flies as I get older. Shot Gallery indoors there as well as .22 metallic silhouette for fun. It was years later when I got back into Gallery and Trap.
These parts had an influx of DEC people I've learned. For Westford it was the Wang guys.
dcmdon
NES Member
I guess you all are right. I sometimes forget that "dumb" rules that may dumb for someone careful, aren't that dumb for someone who is either clueless or careless.
Is it ridiculous to believe that if I put my bowling pins at the base of the berm the bullet can go anywhere. Yes.
But its not ridiculous to think that under the right circumstances, if its a range without a really high berm, a bullet might go somewhere if the person puts the bowling pins 20 ft from the berm and shoots at them from, lets say 10 ft away. In that case, the bullet would have the opportunity to climb over the berm. It may not have much energy, and wouldn't kill anyone. But if it was found on a deck, or came through a window, it would hurt the club.
So I get it now. Plan for the lowest common denominator, then plan even lower.
boilermaker
NES Member
Nail on the head right there!
"Moral Hazard" and an unfortunate analogy to our society at present. A litany of rules attempting to regulating everything to the lowest common denominator that lull people into believing that if they can do it, it must be ok. If they can buy it, it must be safe/legal. If they can eat it, it must be clean. If they can follow that closely to the car in front of them, it must be possible to stop...
Anarchy isn't the answer, but a police state, private or public, is just as bad.
People need to understand at every level that they are responsible for their actions. If they believe, even for a moment, that the club or government has taken "every precaution", then they or someone else is going to get hurt.
Geez, this is over board. Harvard hardly tries to regulate everything to a lowest common denominator. On the contrary, we expect everyone to act as their own range safety officer, to be responsible for their own behavior. be safe, have fun, in that order.
Despite his claims to the contrary, DCMDON doesn't "get it." This isn't about rules for someone else, someone less capable than DCMDON.
We want all bullets fired on any given range to stay on that range. We want every shot to end up in a berm. His argument that his ricochets are harmless misses this point. if they're going off the range he doesn't really know where they're ending up. he can predict where they might end up with his angle of incidence, etc. But again, this misses the point. Keep it simple.
There are a few "kinda lame" rules at clubs like HSC, HSA, etc... however, they're generally done in such a way that they will only occasionally piss off about 1% of the member base, which is something most people won't care about, or won't make it a deciding factor. It's the clubs that go full retard (no drawing from holster, litanty of other dumb requirements) that pretty much manage to make themselves completely worthless, to all but the people who are too lazy to drive out to a better club.
-Mike
I'd love to have the gong back - we're working on a railroad tie setup for it. And stick the smarmy let me guess crap. I didn't say I wanted or didn't want anything. We have a milirtary shoot a few times ayear. You should come and see the great firearms people bring - dreaded black rifles and ak's and all kinds of fun. No military hating fudds real or imagined.
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Agreed. IMHO it's better to simply not have numbskulls as members in the first place. Just when you get done building something idiot-proof the universe goes and creates a better idiot.
namedpipes
NES Member
How many of the rules at Harvard are OTHER THAN reinforcing common sense? Serious question. If everyone followed [what amounts to common sense], Cekim's observations on personal responsibility, then these rules/laws that irk us would not be necessary.
I guess common sense isn't as common as some of us might wish. The number of times I have been swept tells me that. Or looking back when I'm down range to see someone on the line the messing with his firearm.
Apparently some people think everyone is rational and posessed with good judgement.
I think many people don't consider the potential results of their actions. In fact, I think most people think they are an exception. "Won't happen to me. " "I can handle my guns while people are down range because I'm pretty sure they aren't loaded. " "I can shoot at bowling pins on the ground because I'm pretty sure my ricochets won't injure someone. " "I can drink and drive just fine. " "I can eat crappy food day after day and get no exercise with no future bad health effects."
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I think the rimfire ban in many of the action pits and the back 40 is lame. I don't understand why they are afraid of spent 22 brass in the sand/dirt. Where is the common sense in that? Maybe I missed the true reason for the rule.
Personally I don't understand the rule but I doubt it has to do with spent brass in the sand.
But this highlights my point. Just because we don't understand the reason for a rule doesn't mean there isn't a good reason. I think I will take this as a cue to go ask someone who may know the reason for this rule. Maybe it is a lame rule, maybe it isn't. Neither my intellect nor my common sense offer me guidance on this one. Maybe someone else has considered something I have so far failed to perceive.
Assuming you're action pits are like ours, maybe it's to keep the people bench shooting (who should be at the utility range, 200 yard range or steal target range) out of the action pits so those of us who want to run drills, blast the shotty or otherwise not sit and bench shoot in the non-bench shooting areas can have a place to shoot without waiting 3 hours for someone to fire 20 rounds, and leave.
I mean, I'd share the pit, but with the common firing line of 80 yards, it isn't as fun trying to plink plastic bottles and shoot from behind cover, etc.
Sorry, I'm just ranting, this likely has nothing to do with it.
dcmdon
NES Member
This is hardly worth even talking about.
I couched my comment as a very very weak complaint about an excellent club that has a few rules that are somewhat annoying.
Can I say it any softer? Harvard seems to me to be worried a lot about skips. That can't be debated.
Whether a shot at a ground target placed at the foot of a 40 foot high berm is certainly something that can be debated.
I certainly didn't want this to get nasty. I'm not telling anyone their kid is ugly. Harvard is a great club. I'm happy to live within the rules.
I don't think I'm special. I'm fairly experienced and very careful. I see new shooters make mistakes that I'd never make. But then people like me who have been shooting for years may be more likely to make different mistakes. We're all imperfect. We all make mistakes. I get that.
Lets please not let this degrade into personal attacks.
