Flying with Handguns

[Chris]

I have not traveled as much lately as I did years past, but I've NEVER been asked for a permit when checking a firearm. I don't see how they can even justify it. By federal law, if you travel from a place you are legal to a place you are legal, you are allowed to travel anywhere in between so long as the gun is unloaded and locked in a case.

Sure, they can ask, but how that matters is beyond me. Few states require a permit just to HAVE a firearm (MA being the local exception) and only require one if the gun is loaded and concealed.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Few states require a permit just to HAVE a firearm (MA being the local exception)

NY, NJ, CT and RI (with certain exceptions) are additional local exceptions.

but I've NEVER been asked for a permit when checking a firearm.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, this seems to be a NY custom - reported from the Albany, Syracuse, JFK and LaGuardia airports.

 

[ASHDUMP]

This is all great stuff to consider people! Thank you for all the responses.

My only real dilemma is flying out of RI. I only have a MA LTC.

The only argument I have is that I'm traveling from MA to MO which I'm legally allowed to do, but would the state of RI not consider it that way because I'm stopping in their state to board a plane? I'd still be en-route to my destination which I'm legally allowed in with firearms. (wouldn't it be almost the same situation during my layover in DC?)

What do you all think about my argument above? I know we are not lawyers here, so I guess I'm looking for general responses not to take as fact.

 

[Pilgrim]

Have the car shipped here. ;-)

I would be cheaper.

I had one shipped from Indiana for $300.

re: TSA and licenses: I checked in curbside at KC Mo airport in August to come home. When asked for my ticket and ID, I accidentally (really) gave her my LTC. I said oops, let me give you my DL. The lady said, this is ok. Do you have a firearm with you? Nope, she said ok, have a nice day.

I don't think it would have been any harder if I had said yes, locked in my bag.

 

[ASHDUMP]

I would be cheaper.

I had one shipped from Indiana for $300

Depends on which carrier you use. Do you remember the name of the company? I had a car shipped from PA 4 years ago that cost me like $500, but the turnaround was 36hrs.

I've looked at some quotes online and sometimes they say it could take up to 30days. I'm looking to get my new ride ASAP!

 

[Cabinetman]

If you travel through any airport on the way home, you're ok. Why? Because you don't collect your luggage and enter into 'constructive receipt" of your handgun. It remains in complete control of the airline. But that, too, can go wrong.

A case that happened at JFK a couple of years ago is the perfect example.

In a nutshell, a guy was traveling home via airplane. Because of weather, his plane was diverted to JFK. They sat on the ramp for a while but then, because the weather was really bad to where he was flying, the flight was terminated. That required all the passengers to collect their bags and go to an assigned hotel for a morning departure to their final destination. He did just that. The next morning, well rested, he and all the other passengers went to the counter to re-check in for their final let. He dutifully declared his pistol which was in his luggage. The TSA called over a NY Trooper and the poor passenger was summarily arrested as he did NOT have a permit to have a handgun in NY. I do not know how that case was resolved but suffice it to say it ruined his day.

This is what you're up against. What that passenger should have done was to find a supervisor as soon as the flight cancellation was declared. He should have told the supervisor the situation and his bag should have been collected by the airline and locked up or something to that effect. It was not his problem that the flight was cancelled but it became his problem as soon as he regained custody of his handgun.

See how it goes? If you fly with firearms you've got to be prepared to handle any contingency.

Rome

 

[ASHDUMP]

Wow, great stuff Rome. This is a great forum to get good recommendations.

...now that I think about it, I should have just booked a ticket out of Logan... would have made things a little easier. I should have asked all these questions before I purchased the ticket. DAMN!

 

[Pilgrim]

Depends on which carrier you use. Do you remember the name of the company?

sorry, I don't.

 

[38supermatt]

...now that I think about it, I should have just booked a ticket out of Logan... would have made things a little easier. I should have asked all these questions before I purchased the ticket. DAMN!

dont worry about it. if RI is closer and more convenient for you, you made the right decision.
I fly out of RI all the time and only have a MA license. It's not illegal to throw your gun in your suitcase in your car and drive it back to MA, you don't need any special permit for that.
Here's RI's own state law on it:

§ 11-47-8 License or permit required for carrying pistol – Possession of machine gun. – (a) No person shall, without a license or permit issued as provided in §§ 11-47-11, 11-47-12 and 11-47-18, carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person whether visible or concealed, except in his or her dwelling house or place of business or on land possessed by him or her or as provided in §§ 11-47-9 and 11-47-10. The provisions of these sections shall not apply to any person who is the holder of a valid license or permit issued by the licensing authority of another state, or territory of the United States, or political subdivision of the state or territory, allowing him or her to carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person whether visible or concealed, provided the person is merely transporting the firearm through the state in a vehicle or other conveyance without any intent on the part of the person to detain him or herself or remain within the state of Rhode Island.

 

[yanici]

dont worry about it. if RI is closer and more convenient for you, you made the right decision.
I fly out of RI all the time and only have a MA license. It's not illegal to throw your gun in your suitcase in your car and drive it back to MA, you don't need any special permit for that.
Here's RI's own state law on it:

§ 11-47-8 License or permit required for carrying pistol – Possession of machine gun. – (a) No person shall, without a license or permit issued as provided in §§ 11-47-11, 11-47-12 and 11-47-18, carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person whether visible or concealed, except in his or her dwelling house or place of business or on land possessed by him or her or as provided in §§ 11-47-9 and 11-47-10. The provisions of these sections shall not apply to any person who is the holder of a valid license or permit issued by the licensing authority of another state, or territory of the United States, or political subdivision of the state or territory, allowing him or her to carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person whether visible or concealed, provided the person is merely transporting the firearm through the state in a vehicle or other conveyance without any intent on the part of the person to detain him or herself or remain within the state of Rhode Island.

Matt, I think you nailed it. Good job.

 

[Cabinetman]

See what you started, Ashdump? I don't know of another topic that generates so many replies so quickly.

In any event, I continued doing some reading and discovered this link:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...ssues-discussions/88722-airline-travel-2.html

Go there and scroll down about 1/2 way and you'll find a letter to a congressman from Washington regarding the Congressman's complaint that passengers arriving at JFK from out of town with their properly stored firerms were being hassled and confiscated. It's an eye-opening reply indicating that out-of-staters (like yourself going to RI) can, in fact, travel to an out-of-state airport and check their firearms. Good!

However, since that letter was written, there have been numerous incidents of just that in NY, the city that was being criticized. It may be that you and other travelers should be protected under the law based on that letter. Whether or not you would be treated properly, however, is a good question.

Personally? I'm not interesting in becoming a poster-boy for this issue. Still, it would appear that there is legal basis for allowing this type of behavior.

Rome

 

[zeppelinfromled]

Has anyone had the experience of having a flight canceled during a layover in an area where you can't have a gun (NYC, for example). I've been stuck in New York overnight because a flight was canceled, but I didn't have a gun in my luggage. We retrieved our suitcases, stayed in a hotel (or slept in the airport) and got a flight the next day.

What do you do if you're transporting a gun in your checked luggage and you get stranded in NYC during a layover, such that they want you to retrieve your checked luggage? Obviously the best answer is "don't change planes in NYC," but that's not always possible. Should you find a cop ASAP and explain the situation? What will he end up having you do?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

What do you do if you're transporting a gun in your checked luggage and you get stranded in NYC during a layover, such that they want you to retrieve your checked luggage? Obviously the best answer is "don't change planes in NYC," but that's not always possible. Should you find a cop ASAP and explain the situation? What will he end up having you do?

If you find a NYC cop, the most favorable outcome you can reasonably expect is to be permitted to surrender your firearm voluntarily.

Best bet would be to carry the gun in a hard case that fits inside a Federal Express mailer, and ship the gun to youself Fedex if you find yourself trapped behind enemy lines.

Even if the NYC Officer you deal with is familiar with FOPA86, one slip of the tongue - such as admitting you trip is not continuous and uninterrupted - can put you into a situation where you lose the firearms and pay $10K+ in legal fees to get a disposition such as non criminal disturbing of the peace as a plea bargain.

 

[Jaxon]

If you find a NYC cop, the most favorable outcome you can reasonably expect is to be permitted to surrender your firearm voluntarily.

Best bet would be to carry the gun in a hard case that fits inside a Federal Express mailer, and ship the gun to youself Fedex if you find yourself trapped behind enemy lines.

Even if the NYC Officer you deal with is familiar with FOPA86, one slip of the tongue - such as admitting you trip is not continuous and uninterrupted - can put you into a situation where you lose the firearms and pay $10K+ in legal fees to get a disposition such as non criminal disturbing of the peace as a plea bargain.

What Rob said. Since you have to declare the weapon in your luggage, they automatically call the PD. And unless you're one of the favored "Only Ones",, then you're in deep doo.

 

[Cabinetman]

Rob, you're solution is certainly a viable one. Ship to yourself for arrival the next day.

If it were me, however, I would find a lead supervisor, explain my situation, and ask them to find some security authority to lock up my suitcase (out of your possession) until the next morning. It was NOT your fault that the plane was diverted and you followed all the regs. As long as you don't actually take possession of your suitcase you can't be considered in possession of your firearm. They can't force to you to break what they consider the law.

That's what I'd do.

Rome

 

[Aube]

I was told that you go to the bag check and say "I have a declaration" they take you into a room and talk to you. You have to have it unloaded and in a locked case, the ammo has to be in its original box. Then they put it in your luggage and put it under the plane. Calling the airline(s) would be a good idea as well. I could be wrong, but i asked my instructor about that cause my girlfriends dad lives in D.C. and i want to go shooting with him.

As to laws in Kansas i haven't the slightest clue. Like the others suggested call the P.D.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I was told that you go to the bag check and say "I have a declaration" they take you into a room and talk to you.

You have been told wrong - it's generally taken care of right at the counter.

As to "Getting a supervisor" on an unexpected layover - just remember, the typical NYC response will be to call law enforcement and ask for instructions.

 

[Aube]

You have been told wrong - it's generally taken care of right at the counter.

Well regardless they'll still let you take it on as luggage, right? Details Shmetails.

 

[Jaxon]

You have been told wrong - it's generally taken care of right at the counter.

As to "Getting a supervisor" on an unexpected layover - just remember, the typical NYC response will be to call law enforcement and ask for instructions.

Yes and no. Its been my experience that you declare at the counter, get the tag, put it in the bag and then go see TSA. Sometimes they actually check the bag, and other times they don't. No consistency with them. And then it gets sent on its way.

NYC automatically calls the PD, and then the dance begins.

 

[ASHDUMP]

dont worry about it. if RI is closer and more convenient for you, you made the right decision.
I fly out of RI all the time and only have a MA license. It's not illegal to throw your gun in your suitcase in your car and drive it back to MA, you don't need any special permit for that.
Here's RI's own state law on it:

§ 11-47-8 License or permit required for carrying pistol – Possession of machine gun. – (a) No person shall, without a license or permit issued as provided in §§ 11-47-11, 11-47-12 and 11-47-18, carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person whether visible or concealed, except in his or her dwelling house or place of business or on land possessed by him or her or as provided in §§ 11-47-9 and 11-47-10. The provisions of these sections shall not apply to any person who is the holder of a valid license or permit issued by the licensing authority of another state, or territory of the United States, or political subdivision of the state or territory, allowing him or her to carry a pistol or revolver in any vehicle or conveyance or on or about his or her person whether visible or concealed, provided the person is merely transporting the firearm through the state in a vehicle or other conveyance without any intent on the part of the person to detain him or herself or remain within the state of Rhode Island.

That tidbit of information was priceless! Thanks! +1

See what you started, Ashdump? I don't know of another topic that generates so many replies so quickly.

In any event, I continued doing some reading and discovered this link:

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...ssues-discussions/88722-airline-travel-2.html

Go there and scroll down about 1/2 way and you'll find a letter to a congressman from Washington regarding the Congressman's complaint that passengers arriving at JFK from out of town with their properly stored firerms were being hassled and confiscated. It's an eye-opening reply indicating that out-of-staters (like yourself going to RI) can, in fact, travel to an out-of-state airport and check their firearms. Good!

However, since that letter was written, there have been numerous incidents of just that in NY, the city that was being criticized. It may be that you and other travelers should be protected under the law based on that letter. Whether or not you would be treated properly, however, is a good question.

Personally? I'm not interesting in becoming a poster-boy for this issue. Still, it would appear that there is legal basis for allowing this type of behavior.

Rome

Good questions get good responses and answers! That letter is great! I might print out a couple things to reference just in case something happens. Although sometimes when you reference stuff to people they get all jumbled up! +1

 

[KMaurer]

I've never "gone to see TSA" after declaring it the counter ... not at BOS, MHT, LAX, PHL, or any other place I've done it. They always simply verify it's unloaded (taking the slide off at home before packing it helps to avoid problems here), fill out the tag, I lock it, and they throw the bag on the conveyor with everything else. Some people or some places may do it differently, but that's been my experience.

Ken

 

[zeppelinfromled]

I've never "gone to see TSA" after declaring it the counter ... not at BOS, MHT, LAX, PHL, or any other place I've done it. They always simply verify it's unloaded (taking the slide off at home before packing it helps to avoid problems here), fill out the tag, I lock it, and they throw the bag on the conveyor with everything else. Some people or some places may do it differently, but that's been my experience.

Ken

LAX? Do you have some sort of privilege that I wouldn't have? I'm not allowed to have guns in that state.

If you don't take the slide off before packing, how do they ensure that the chamber is empty at the counter? I assume that most of the people I talk to at the baggage-check counter don't know how to clear a firearm. Do they get you to lock the slide open for them, or do they call someone else over, or are they actually trained to check that it's unloaded (preferably without sweeping everyone in the room)?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I'm not allowed to have guns in that state.

Is there some sort of California court order against you in place, or are you simply uninformed regarding that state's laws? They ban all sorts of nice stuff (including a lot of the fun stuff), but you don't even need a permit to own a handgun in CA (just a firearms safety certificate to buy one).

 

[dreamer]

I haven't had any real problems flying with handguns. I've had some minor issues flying with a parachute though. My course of action if someone seems uncertain is to guide the interaction and conversation politely to the rules. I always travel with a copy of the pertinent FAA rules, and if the person at the airport gives any body language of being uncomfortable I start with "I bet you don't have to deal with these very often" delivered with a smile. That, combined with an offer of the documents and a firm but polite attitude usually resolves questions pretty quickly. The times when a supervisor is called, I offer them to use me as a teaching example to the rest of the crew to help him refresh their training. They usually take me up on the offer and it becomes a positive experience.

It is also very important to choose your words carefully. The reserve deployment handle is silver and you wouldn't imagine how many people want to pick it up by that! You don't say "Don't touch that!" you say "It costs me 60 bucks and ruins my vacation if you pull that thing" with a smile (again).

One time I did have an agent at the desk who seemed very uncomfortable checking my gun. With a smile I said, "here it is unloaded ready for multiple locks just like the FAA says" while also handing over the pertinent regs. Calmed her right down, unlike if I had said something like "Here's my gun."

 

[drgrant]

LAX? Do you have some sort of privilege that I wouldn't have? I'm not allowed to have guns in that state.

Anyone can bring a typical handgun into CA. Just don't bring any large capacity magazines with you, or any guns which violate their AWB (this means anything with a threaded barrel).

-Mike

 

[PaulD]

NY, NJ, CT and RI (with certain exceptions) are additional local exceptions.


As I mentioned in an earlier post, this seems to be a NY custom - reported from the Albany, Syracuse, JFK and LaGuardia airports.

One other thing about NY, according to their state law (which I realize is in conflict with FOPA), it's illegal for an out of state resident to transport a gun through the state unless they hold a NY permit or are going to a competition.

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

If he's coming back from MO to MA, he'll be driving through.

 

[zeppelinfromled]

Hm, interesting. No court orders or anything. I haven't been to CA since before I owned any guns, so I hadn't looked into it. So basically, in terms of handguns, if I can own it in MA, I can bring it to CA? (No large capacity magazines).

There was a thread here at some point where someone mentioned going to CA, and there was a response that he couldn't bring his guns to CA. Maybe the person was corrected later on and I didn't check back.

That's definitely good to know though.

Is there some sort of California court order against you in place, or are you simply uninformed regarding that state's laws? They ban all sorts of nice stuff (including a lot of the fun stuff), but you don't even need a permit to own a handgun in CA (just a firearms safety certificate to buy one).

Anyone can bring a typical handgun into CA. Just don't bring any large capacity magazines with you, or any guns which violate their AWB (this means anything with a threaded barrel).

-Mike

 

[GTOShootr]

I've never "gone to see TSA" after declaring it the counter ... not at BOS, MHT, LAX, PHL, or any other place I've done it.

TFG in RI is the only airport I've gone to that had a separate room where you go with TSA.

 

[Jose]

The last time I flew (Dayton to Miami and back) my baggage containing a handgun in a locked case went to TSA after being declared with the airline with me present while they inspected it. Both ways.

 

[ASHDUMP]

One other thing about NY, according to their state law (which I realize is in conflict with FOPA), it's illegal for an out of state resident to transport a gun through the state unless they hold a NY permit or are going to a competition.

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/NYSL.pdf

If he's coming back from MO to MA, he'll be driving through.

Come on now. How many people on this forum have driven though NY with a handgun locked in the trunk? I'm pretty sure all Federal laws supercede state. Am I wrong?

I'll have to put the new car on a ferry out of NJ or something...