Flying with Handguns

ASHDUMP

ASHDUMP

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Hi everyone - I am flying into [STRIKE]Kansas[/STRIKE] Kansas City MO to purchase a new car on Monday. I am flying with United Airlines and would like to bring my gun along. Has anyone done this before? I've actually contacted UA and you wouldn't believe who answered the phone.... Bill from India! I couldn't understand a word he was saying! ...nothing against Indian people.

Here is the information from TSA and from UA.

http://www.united.com/page/article/0,3224,1035,00.html

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1666.shtm

Kansas has no purchase laws, but has carry laws... I'm guessing concealed.

*Heres the kicker. I'm a MA resident and want to fly out of Providence RI (I don't have a RI lecense, only a LTC ALP). Bill on the phone said I needed to show gun information along with a permit to carry. I don't know if he was right, or if he was even saying that at all....

EDIT: I have a layover in Washington DC as well. Am I still OK?

I'm going to be staying in some hotel/motels and would like to know I'm all safe thus why I'm asking about this.
 
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For starters here's a list of State licenses that Kansas Honors:

Alaska Arizona Arkansas Colorado Florida
Hawaii Kentucky Louisiana Michigan Minnesota
Missouri Nebraska Nevada New Jersey New Mexico
North Carolina Ohio Oklahoma South Carolina Tennessee
Texas West Virginia
Kansas Honors Non-Resident Permits/Licenses


And I'm not sure but I believe you need to begin and end your flight in a State that you are legally licensed.


Edit: Pilgrim types faster than me
 
Kansas is an Open Carry state, so that's an option, but I'd research the heck out of it and make sure out-of-staters can open-carry. You'd also need to know the open-carry laws of each town you went to, as there's town-level restrictions.
 
Thanks guys!

Actually, I should have said Kansas City MO which does honor the MA license according to USAcarry.com buy I'm flying out of RI.
 
I am licensed in Mass., and I took a rifle on a flight from Providence to San Antonio. No one ever asked to see my LTC. Once I checked it at the counter, that was it.
 
Paladin said:
I am licensed in Mass., and I took a rifle on a flight from Providence to San Antonio. No one ever asked to see my LTC. Once I checked it at the counter, that was it.
Click to expand...

I keep reading different stuff online about handguns and rifles. Different guidlines for different firearms? Thanks for the response though. I wish I could call someone from Prov. at United.
 
No idea about Kansas City, but I come from MA to fly out of RI a few times a year for competitions. Following everything in the links you cited and you are fine.

Tell the agent when you check-in you have to declare a firearm. They have you open the bag right there, open the box, show that it is unloaded (I just travel with the slides off my frames to make that easy), and put an orange tag on top of the gun. TF Green used to have the TSA screening out in front of the check-in counters but now it is downstairs, so the recent change is that you have to wait for a TSA agent to come to the counter and bring you in a small room in back where they screen the bag. I don't think they even opened the gun case again.

Have ammo in an ammo box. It can be in your bag or even in the locked case with the gun. Just don't have it in the magazines or any loose ones rolling around.

The flying part really isn't a big deal.
 
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I've had layovers on every trip I've flown with my guns. No problems.

The last time I checked in at TFG the guy next to me also had guns. His rifle case had a rifle and a couple Berettas packed together, again no problem.
 
GTOShootr said:
Get the little combo locks from Home Depot that have the TSA access on them for your case.
Click to expand...

GTOShootr sounds right about everything else, but DO NOT DO THIS. You should not use TSA-access locks on your gun case. I think it's illegal, and it's a great way to get them stolen and not required by law. You should be the only one with access to your gun, INCLUDING THE TSA.

If this is no longer the law, I apologize for being so forceful, but when I checked last time, I thought using TSA-access locks on a gun-case was Illegal.
 
Thanks a lot everyone. Now what about driving back home? I know if my final destination allows me to own/carry I can pass through states legally. Does my firearm have to be locked in a box? Or can it be in my possession while driving?

Thanks again everyone! You all just made my day!
 
TheRoland said:
GTOShootr sounds right about everything else, but DO NOT DO THIS. You should not use TSA-access locks on your gun case. I think it's illegal, and it's a great way to get them stolen and not required by law. You should be the only one with access to your gun, INCLUDING THE TSA.

If this is no longer the law, I apologize for being so forceful, but when I checked last time, I thought using TSA-access locks on a gun-case was Illegal.
Click to expand...

You know, that is right. When I bought my locks for my luggage I just bought all TSA ones and used them on both my luggage and case never considering it. Oh well, I guess I'll switch them next time. In reality, locks are kind of a joke. TSA or not, they're no problem to pop off if you're motivated.

On the whole, the TSA guys never seem to be too interested in the guns. They look more carefully at the ammo and making sure the mags are empty.
 
ASHDUMP said:
Thanks a lot everyone. Now what about driving back home? I know if my final destination allows me to own/carry I can pass through states legally. Does my firearm have to be locked in a box? Or can it be in my possession while driving?

Thanks again everyone! You all just made my day!
Click to expand...

My understanding (IANAL):
If you're legal to carry in the state you're in you can have it on you. Better stop before the borders of any states you can't legally carry and revert to "transport" mode with the weapon unloaded and locked away.

Also (and again, IANAL), no stopovers for anything more than food and/or gas in states where your license isn't recognized.
 
Pilgrim said:
unless you've got something other than a Ma LTC, you ain't bringing a gun to kansas.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/kansas.pdf
Click to expand...
I don't understand this. KS has no permit required to own or possess a weapon. You posted a link to KS Concealed Carry laws, but the OP never said he planned on carrying concealed there. Why is it he "ain't bringing a gun to Kansas?"
 
ASHDUMP said:
Thanks a lot everyone. Now what about driving back home? I know if my final destination allows me to own/carry I can pass through states legally. Does my firearm have to be locked in a box? Or can it be in my possession while driving?
Click to expand...
Unless that particular state recognizes your LTC, I suggest that it be unloaded, in a locked case in your trunk, with the ammo separate.

More information about FOPA here:

One of the law's provisions was that persons traveling from one place to another for a shooting sports event or any other lawful activity cannot be arrested for a firearms offense in a state that has strict gun control laws if the traveler is just passing through (short stops for food and gas) and the firearms and ammunition are not immediately accessible, unloaded and, in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment, in a locked container.[5]

An example of this would be that someone driving from Virginia to a competition in Vermont with a locked hard case containing an unloaded handgun and a box of ammunition in the trunk could not be prosecuted in New Jersey or New York City for illegal possession of a handgun provided that they did not stop in New Jersey or New York for an extended period of time.
Click to expand...
 
Allright, let me make this as clear as possible. No, I'm not an attorney but I have flown with handguns numerous times, across the country, without any incidents and have researched this quite a bit.

(BTW, I, too, bought a car in KCK (Kansas City, Kansas) not KCMO (Kancas City, Mo) and drove it home. It was fun!)

If you go to RI with your handgun, properly locked and unloaded of course, and declare it at the airport, you MAY or MAY NOT be safe. If the TSA decides to ask you for your permit in RI, and you don't have one, you could easily be arrested for having a handgun in your possession without a permit in RI. Simple as that. Maybe he/she won't ask but maybe the subject of where your traveling from or to. It has happened in many other states, especially NY. What will you say to the RI trooper when he nicely asks you for your RI permit? "I dont' have one but I've got on in MA." Will they ask you? Maybe not but it's becoming more and more common. It would most certainly ruin your day. They don't ask in Hartford, either, but I was shocked that they didn't, to be honest. They most certainly do in MA and in NY for sure, however.

If you run that gauntlet and get through ok, you'll still be violating a number of states regs as you travel East by car. You'd have to have your handgun locked, in your trunk the whole way, and hope that you don't get stopped and searched for 1500 miles. While that, too, is probably not going to happen, if it did you'd better be prepared to explain to the trooper where your current permit is for his state. Maybe you've got reciprocity but MA doesn't have a lot of friends across the country. You could argue FOPA of course but you'll be overnighting in states you are not permitted in. And, if you take your firearm into your room with you (I wouldn't leave it in the car) you'd be technically "in possession".

Nope, until we get some type of reciprocity law in this country you'd be best served leaving your handgun at home. I know you'll feel naked without it but you'll be tempting fate if something happens on the way back that somehow exposes your hangun to the LEOs on the way back.

Bottom line: if you don't have a permit for the states you're visiting, leave the hardware in the safe.

Rome
 
Cabinetman said:
Allright, let me make this as clear as possible. No, I'm not an attorney but I have flown with handguns numerous times, across the country, without any incidents and have researched this quite a bit.

(BTW, I, too, bought a car in KCK (Kansas City, Kansas) not KCMO (Kancas City, Mo) and drove it home. It was fun!)

If you go to RI with your handgun, properly locked and unloaded of course, and declare it at the airport, you MAY or MAY NOT be safe. If the TSA decides to ask you for your permit in RI, and you don't have one, you could easily be arrested for having a handgun in your possession without a permit in RI. Simple as that. Maybe he/she won't ask but maybe the subject of where your traveling from or to. It has happened in many other states, especially NY. What will you say to the RI trooper when he nicely asks you for your RI permit? "I dont' have one but I've got on in MA." Will they ask you? Maybe not but it's becoming more and more common. It would most certainly ruin your day. They don't ask in Hartford, either, but I was shocked that they didn't, to be honest. They most certainly do in MA and in NY for sure, however.

If you run that gauntlet and get through ok, you'll still be violating a number of states regs as you travel East by car. You'd have to have your handgun locked, in your trunk the whole way, and hope that you don't get stopped and searched for 1500 miles. While that, too, is probably not going to happen, if it did you'd better be prepared to explain to the trooper where your current permit is for his state. Maybe you've got reciprocity but MA doesn't have a lot of friends across the country. You could argue FOPA of course but you'll be overnighting in states you are not permitted in. And, if you take your firearm into your room with you (I wouldn't leave it in the car) you'd be technically "in possession".

Nope, until we get some type of reciprocity law in this country you'd be best served leaving your handgun at home. I know you'll feel naked without it but you'll be tempting fate if something happens on the way back that somehow exposes your hangun to the LEOs on the way back.

Bottom line: if you don't have a permit for the states you're visiting, leave the hardware in the safe.

Rome
Click to expand...

Thanks Rome, you ruined my night!!! JK

You make a good point. The only thing that would be subject to my demise would be flying out of RI. The MA permit is recognized in MO where I am flying to.

Technically, I could drive to MO from MA and be following all state and federal laws. Would flying be considered transportation? It would almost be like I was driving though RI to get to MO only it would be in a plane.

So am I understanding this correctly?... you can not posses a gun in a motel room that doesn't accept the MA license?
 
What will you say to the RI trooper when he nicely asks you for your RI permit? "I dont' have one but I've got on in MA."
Click to expand...

Being referred to LE for a permit verification when checking a firearm as checked luggage seems to be a fairly common in NY State, reported from multiple airports. I've never heard of it happening in RI, and I have flown out of RI with handguns in checked luggage on multiple occasions without any permit check. Maybe it was Murphy's law in action (not being asked for a RI permit because I have one).

They most certainly do in MA and in NY for sure, however.
Click to expand...
I have flown out of Boston/Logan airport with handguns in many occasions and have NEVER been asked for my permit except by an Air Canada eh? employee who found it hard to believe an American actually had the necessary paperwork to arrive in Toronto with such interesting luggage ... and that wasn't a LEO check, but a "we want to make sure you don't get into trouble when you arrive" attempt at assistance.
 
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I'm not sure what I'm going to do guys/gals.

But if I choose to take my handgun, do you think the S&W box that has 2 holes for locks is suitable?

The only problem is, that it has "gun" written all over it because it is blue and says S&W. What do you all think? Do I need to go out and buy another box?
 
Well, I'm not concerned for Ashdump out of Boston as he's good to go there. I know that Boston TSAs do ask, however, maybe not all the time and maybe at some airlines more than others. Last year I clearly recall reading a post about a fella who got a hassle there.

I've discussed this over the years at other website. The contention of many of the posters is that the TSAs are NOT the enforcers of the regulations of any particular state so they should not be asking for "papers please" when you check a handgun. Still, it happens, maybe not with 100% frequency but it does happen. What would you do? If you refuse, that TSA will be calling a State Trooper or Supervisor for assistance. It's happened to me, not for papers but because my luggage tested positive for explosives. One of the pieces was a small bag I had carried to my range just a couple of times. Duh. It can get intimidating very quickly. But, I was in the clear and went on my way.

Regarding the legality of checking your destination airport there is NO WAY a local LEO or TSA would know their ass from thier elbow in that respect. Hell, we have a hard time figuring out some of these reciprocity regs ourselves. All the local people can do is hold you to their local standards and your destination is up to you. Of course there you won't worry about having to declare your handgun as you'll simply pick it up at the baggage claim and off you go. Coming home is up to you.

Regarding the comment I made about having your handgun in a motel, I'm sure that any anti-activist would call it "possession" regardless if it were locked up. While the chances are nil that you'd encounter any issues, there's always that small percentage that dangles out there that you might be discovered. Is it worth it? Interestingly enough bad guys seem to carry their illegal handguns all the time without being hasseled, right? When was the last time you heard about someone being arrested for illegal possession who wasn't involved in a crime?

Look.......here's the issue. I, like 99.9% of all firearm owners want two basic things. #1 we want to be left alone to pursue our rights guaranteed by the constitution of our great country. #2 we all want to legally comply the best we can with the regulations regarding this hobby. While we may bitch and moan about stupid laws, none of us wants to be fighting in court for something we did that was boneheaded. Ultimately NONE of us wants to put ourselves in a position where we would lose....forever..the right to own our stuff by being convicted of a feloney. Socially and financially it could be devestating. The State wants it to be that way.

So, ALWAYS think of every scenario before you travel interstate with firearms. Regardless of what others say, it is always a bit tenuous, even if you are 100% within your rights. And, when you do travel with guns, you've got to hope that your luggage follows you correctly. With lost baggage being such an issue, I'd be sick to my stomach if my bag were lost and my handgun stolen. Knowing that something I owned is in the hands of a bad guy would be like an ongoing nightmare. And yes, I've had my luggage lost! My two competition rifles for Camp Perry went in one direction and I went in another. It was only after I threatened to call the ATF from the speed dial on my cell phone did USAir take me seriously. I sweated that for 20 hours while they scrambled to find my luggage.

To conclude; if I were in your shoes, flying out of RI with only a MA permit, the firearms would stay home, period, end of discussion. While I'll feel exposed, I would ruin my trip and lose everything I own. That's just me.

Rome
 
It makes no difference, Ashdump. The gun is locked (trigger lock) with the action open and then locked in a S&W hard case buried in your luggage. The TSA will ask for the key to open the lock and hand it back to you after his inspects it. It would be signal orange but it won't make a difference.

Rome
 
Ammo is no big issue, either. You're limited to how much you can carry but it's not really an issue unless you want to carry 50 pounds to some match. Then it becomes an issue and would be better shipped ahead. For a couple of boxes of 50 rounds, however, it wouldn't be an issue. Again, it has to be declared.

To help clarify this, here's a paragraph taken right out of the TSA website:

Following is a summary of key regulatory requirements to transport firearms, firearm parts or ammunition in checked baggage:

All firearms must be declared to the air carrier during the ticket counter check-in process.
The firearm must be unloaded.
The firearm must be carried in a hard-sided container.
The container must be locked.
The passenger must provide the key or combination to the screener if it is necessary to open the container, and then remain present during screening to take back possession of the key after the container is cleared.
Any ammunition transported must be securely packed in fiber (such as cardboard), wood or metal boxes or other packaging specifically designed to carry small amounts of ammunition.
Firearm magazines/clips do not satisfy the packaging requirement unless they provide a complete and secure enclosure of the ammunition (e.g., by securely covering the exposed portions of the magazine or by securely placing the magazine in a pouch, holder, holster or lanyard).
The ammunition may also be located in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as it is properly packed as described above.
Black powder and percussion caps used with black-powder type firearms are not permitted in carry-on or checked baggage.
The regulations are strictly enforced. Violations can result in criminal prosecution and the imposition of civil penalties of up to $10,000 per violation.

There is more here: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1188.shtm

Notice that there is no mention of checking papers or permits, however. It's strictly on an airport/state basis. Still, would I want to take a chance of losing my permit and having to hire a lawyer because I didn't have a state permit? Nope, not me.
 

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