excuse my ignorance

[LORD of WAR]

today was one of the first times ive been in this part of the forum in my almost year here on the boards...while taking in everything and wanting to make a bug out kit myself i was thinking back to when i first got my fid card...the instructor told me he thought everyone should own guns to protect themselves from their neighbors...i got my permit immediately after 9/11 so tensions were still very high and images crisp in everyones minds...the instructor said there could come a time during another attack where all hell breaks lose and those with the guns would be able to rule

so i was wondering the fact that why make all these elaborate kits when you own guns??? maybe excuse my ignorance but the way i see it...if soemthing were to happen say in my town...i know im one of the only people in my neighbor hood with firearms...so in a way doesnt that make me topgun??? (no pun intented) in all seriousness...if i have a gun and you dont and you have fresh water and i dont...guess what...its my water now

like i said i havent perused this section enough to know if this has been discussed before so i was just throwing this out there...i mean when i think of survival i think of darwins theory...strongest...best fit...and most able survives...so technically...would i just need plenty of ammo? i could take whatever else i need from the unarmed people...am i wrong in thinking this?

 

[snowjoker]

I think of it whis way.

I have plenty of guns, and plenty of ammo. I am also fairly well prepared for a Bug-in or a Bug-out situation.

I like to think that we have planned well enough and prepared enough that we can survive through most situations without having to comprimise our morals by stealing other peoples stuff.

If I start using my weapons to steal other peoples things and the little that they have to survive on, then I would not be any better than the people that looted in New Orleans (not the ones that tooks food and water, the ones that stole TVs, sneakers and beer).

 

[Tater]

today was one of the first times ive been in this part of the forum in my almost year here on the boards...while taking in everything and wanting to make a bug out kit myself i was thinking back to when i first got my fid card...the instructor told me he thought everyone should own guns to protect themselves from their neighbors...i got my permit immediately after 9/11 so tensions were still very high and images crisp in everyones minds...the instructor said there could come a time during another attack where all hell breaks lose and those with the guns would be able to rule

so i was wondering the fact that why make all these elaborate kits when you own guns??? maybe excuse my ignorance but the way i see it...if soemthing were to happen say in my town...i know im one of the only people in my neighbor hood with firearms...so in a way doesnt that make me topgun??? (no pun intented) in all seriousness...if i have a gun and you dont and you have fresh water and i dont...guess what...its my water now

like i said i havent perused this section enough to know if this has been discussed before so i was just throwing this out there...i mean when i think of survival i think of darwins theory...strongest...best fit...and most able survives...so technically...would i just need plenty of ammo? i could take whatever else i need from the unarmed people...am i wrong in thinking this?

The point to having a B.O.Kit is to have what you need in case of an evacuation. If you have to flee a possible nuclear contamination of the state you will need to leave. And don't rely on steeling from those who aren't carrying a gun.... because they may be carrying concealed.... and in all that chaos it will take a while to get help for being shot trying to steal my water...

 

[Lugnut]

i mean when i think of survival i think of darwins theory...strongest...best fit...and most able survives...so technically...would i just need plenty of ammo? i could take whatever else i need from the unarmed people...am i wrong in thinking this?

If you just reread what you said and still have to ask then I'd be disappointed. I hope this wasn't a serious post... and since you have firearms I'd expect I higher moral ground.

 

[Finalygotabeltfed]

If you "take" what you need at the point of a gun, thats called robbery and in troubled times, you wouldn't get far before justice was carried out.

Having a gun is for defense not offense, in normal or troubled times.

 

[Wildweasel]

If you are taking things from unarmed people at the point of a gun in my neck of the woods you will be strung up. pure and simple. PREPARE. you have the right to protect your self and possesions but not to steal from others.

 

[Adam_MA]

OK...

You have guns, and ammo, you're the "top dog" on the block. Don't you think, that in desperate times there will be folks that will try to take what you have regardless if you have guns or not? And who's gonna stand guard? You gonna stay awake 24/7.

 

[LORD of WAR]

ok so then lets flip it around...in a time of brewed chaos...like katrina...if you have a gun and you have all your supplies...and joe blow comes bangin on your door...unnarmed...but says he'll do harm to you if you dont give him enough food and water to supply his family you wouldnt eliminate the threat? im assuming that at such an instance of extreme chaos as you guys are planning for the cops arent gonna come investigate anytime soon theyll be too busy with other things

like i said i was just going by what my instructor had said in that course i took
and i dont mean looting...taking sneakers and tvs and stuff...i mean essential stuff..for you and your family to SURVIVE...am i out of line in thinking that there isnt one of you who wouldnt squeeze the trigger to preserve the lives of your loved ones????

if im totally out of line in this thread please let me know...it was just a thought that occurred to me and what that instructor had said has stuck i nthe back of my mind...maybe im crazy? i dont know...just wanted opinions

 

[Adam_MA]

If someone came to my door in a katrina type situation, and told me they were going to kill me for what I have, BOOM says the gun to the forehead...

And to answer your question, I will do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to protect and keep my family safe.

 

[squarooticus]

If you take advantage of chaos to assert power over others under the threat of force, you become a warlord. I will not permit warlords.

Kyle

 

[LORD of WAR]

If you take advantage of chaos to assert power over others under the threat of force, you become a warlord. I will not permit warlords.

well then dont move to my side of town unless you have bigger and better guns

...kidding...


but really though...

And to answer your question, I will do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to protect and keep my family safe.

would that include taking needed supplies from others who are unnarmed in order to sustain life in your "camp"?

in my opinion if the answer is no then you guys must not value your lives that much...or like i said...i could just be crazy in thinking this

and ill state again...i dont mean to ruffle any feathers here...just wanted some input...even if youthink it makes me a bad gun owner for my thoughts

 

[sksguns]

why wouldn't you look to combine resources instead of segregating yourself from other survivors...safety in numbers and all...

Working together as a group in a crisis is much more productive than stealing your prepared neighbor's supplies....

If you don't prepare shame on you. A gun gives you the power to take what isn't yours but not the right too....

 

[Lugnut]

If someone came to my door in a katrina type situation, and told me they were going to kill me for what I have, BOOM says the gun to the forehead...

A verbal threat isn't just cause to shoot someone... I'm pretty sure that's not just a MA thing either.

 

[dwarven1]

Let me ask YOU a question, bloodhound. Would YOU be able to live with yourself knowing that you've just condemned your neighbor (maybe the guy who you chat with while doing yardwork) to a slow agonizing death by stealing his supplies at gun point?

I couldn't - I'd try to find some other way to survive. Perhaps offer to team up with him - you share weapons, he shares food & water - to make it to a place where you BOTH can survive. Two people can survive better than one can; you can't stay alert 24x7 by yourself, remember.

Sure, you might make it in the short run... but that kind of behavior has a habit of coming back to haunt you when you least expect it.

 

[Lugnut]

like i said i was just going by what my instructor had said in that course i took
and i dont mean looting...taking sneakers and tvs and stuff...i mean essential stuff..for you and your family to SURVIVE...am i out of line in thinking that there isnt one of you who wouldnt squeeze the trigger to preserve the lives of your loved ones????

if im totally out of line in this thread please let me know...it was just a thought that occurred to me and what that instructor had said has stuck i nthe back of my mind...maybe im crazy? i dont know...just wanted opinions

IMHO yes- you are out of line. Using a firearm to protect yourself from a direct threat from others is certainly reasonable. To use a firearm to steal something from others is just wrong. Period.

 

[Wildweasel]

Alright thats NOT what you stated int he first post. And I stated that you have the right to protect yourself and yours.
I think you are trolling at this point. If someone came to me in a katrina situation and ASKED for aid I would give what I could spare.
If we stop being american we are no better than the euro trash in the balkens.

ok so then lets flip it around...in a time of brewed chaos...like katrina...if you have a gun and you have all your

if im totally out of line in this thread please let me know...it was just a thought that occurred to me and what that instructor had said has stuck i nthe back of my mind...maybe im crazy? i dont know...just wanted opinions

Yes I would say you are out of line. Think of the story of the Grasshopper and the ants. the ants prepared but the grasshopper sat on his ass.
but in this case the ants have MORE firepower than any grasshopper.

The ants would still help out if asked but will not respond well to threats.

 

[dvajda]

Well, the way I figure it, if I have guns and no water, I'm ok. I'm not going to take or demand supplies from others. But, we can work together. If you have supplies but not guns, if we work together, we have guns and supplies. Perhaps you are willing to trade some of your families supplies, and in return I'll help protect your family. Seems like a good trade barter, I get to eat, you get peace of mind. Even if you have guns, the more people working together towards a common goal is always preferable. We can move faster and protect ourselves and our families better. Just like in New Orleans, you team up with your neighbors, at such times it is bad to go on it alone. What if you fall and hurt your ankle? You never know about these things, safety in numbers.

 

[matt1956]

A verbal threat isn't just cause to shoot someone... I'm pretty sure that's not just a MA thing either.

in a katrina situation it would be IMO

 

[Jaxon]

Its easy, sitting at our desks, in our warm homes, maybe even slightly full from lunch to take the moral high ground in this scenario.

I have never been in a situation like NO/Katrina, so I can't imagine what the mind set is when everything you know, and most or maybe all of what you know has gone to shit.

I and my wife are prepared to BI for some time, especially if the zombies don't show up. And we can BO also, but not as well supplied (you can only carry so much stuff).

Should society (and the rule of law) break down to the point of having to defend yourself from strangers, and perhaps even your neighbors using deadly force, then all bets are off. We do what we have to do to survive.

Read into that what you will.

 

[Admin]

Should society (and the rule of law) break down to the point of having to defend yourself from strangers, and perhaps even your neighbors using deadly force, then all bets are off. We do what we have to do to survive.

Read into that what you will.

That's the way I feel about it.

 

[dwarven1]

Should society (and the rule of law) break down to the point of having to defend yourself from strangers, and perhaps even your neighbors using deadly force, then all bets are off. We do what we have to do to survive.

Read into that what you will.

Defend ourselves? You betcha. Someone trying to harm myself or my wife will be met with appropriate force.

STEAL what we need to survive? Well, I'd need less stuff (because my wife would promptly walk away from me, and I wouldn't blame her), so I suppose I could... but I don't think I WOULD be able to do it. Yes, I might be condemning myself to a painful death by thirst or hunger. And no, I don't know what I'd do when I reach that point. But I certainly HOPE that I wouldn't do it before then, if at all.

That's something that I do NOT want to find out about myself - if I have the capacity to steal someone else's food & water to keep myself alive. Personally, I hope I don't. I think it would be better to die with my honor intact to keep living while hating myself.

If that makes me an idealist, well... I guess that's what I am.

Just don't come to my house to steal... because I'm NOT a pacifist.

"It’s a wonder I haven’t abandoned all my ideals, they seem so absurd and impractical. Yet I cling to them because I still believe, in spite of everything, that people are truly good at heart.

It’s utterly impossible for me to build my life on a foundation of chaos, suffering and death. I see the world being slowly transformed into a wilderness, I hear the approaching thunder that, one day, will destroy us too, I feel the suffering of millions. And yet, when I look up at the sky, I somehow feel that everything will change for the better, that this cruelty too shall end, that peace and tranquility will return once more" - Anne Frank, July 15, 1944

 

[Cross-X]

Why does this thread cause me to want to start channeling Red Dawn?

 

[LORD of WAR]

Let me ask YOU a question, bloodhound. Would YOU be able to live with yourself knowing that you've just condemned your neighbor (maybe the guy who you chat with while doing yardwork) to a slow agonizing death by stealing his supplies at gun point?

i would have no problem with that...i look out for number 1 and am not concerned about the health and welfare of the others that arent in my camp...consider me derranged...or less of a human because im not willing to lend a helping hand but i could care less about my neighbors

as seen in katrina a situation like this brings out the worst in people...why would i entrust a neighbor with one of my firearms so that when it came down to the last piece of food they could turn it on me?

it just seems to me from the responses that many of you survival minded people are entrusting too many others with your lives...and if you tell me that you would not use your advantage of firepower to feed your own starving kids over your neighbors than i think maybe your values should be questioned...or maybe mine should?

i didnt mean to stir the pot and get all the panties in a bunch or do any "trolling" it was a scanrio type question that i thought was appropriate but apparently my thoughts of survival differ from many of your's

after todays bomb threat i realized i wasnt prepared and will start to make a BO kit

the other thing i was going to suggest was...although many of you probably think ill of me now...would you ever think forming up...like members on here that are in your surrounding communities banding together? dare i say as a militia to kind of keep order? or do you not think that would be a good idea...although you guys said strength in numbers

 

[drgrant]

The other thing is, ignoring the obvious moral issues..... stealing stuff
almost always ADDS risk, which is kind of contrary to trying to
survive. We're not the only people with guns, and you're essentially
playing russian roulette at best (granted, with a lot of empty chambers,
given that most people are sheep) what happens if you manage to get
someone that's willing to use deadly force (via a gun or otherwise) to
stop you? While you're getting granny to raid the pantry her son
appears out of nowhere and starts to beat you to death with a
golf club.

So why add attendant risk, when that risk can be mostly mitigated
by buying a few hundred bucks worth of food and water?
(or a few hundred worth of gear which you could use to hunt
animals, catch fish, etc. ) Seems dumb to resort to robbing someone
when most needs can be met with a relatively small amount of
advance preparation.

I guess what I'm getting at is it's better to be prepared than to try to
rob other people who are (more than likely) completely unprepared
anyways. Holding up some family at gunpoint to net yourself like 5
cans of soup is not going to get us very far. At best it's
inefficient... at worst its a death sentence.

I dunno... I just don't think stealing stuff is prudent unless one is facing
the gravest possible circumstances. I suppose I could understand
people doing bad things under those circumstances, but I still think that
most would resort to stealing from commercial property before they would
steal from their own neighbors.

Then, getting back to the ethical/moral issues for a split second here.... the
act of stealing food from people isn't exactly what I would call a "light"
activity. So you'd have all that stress on your mind in addition to whatever
else is going on as a result of the emergency. Not good. While it's
not very hard to get worked up about stealing a turkey from walmart, theres
just this inherent sense of wrongdoing in terms of stealing from your
neighbor. Not good.


-Mike

 

[dwarven1]

I thought hard before posting this reply, but I feel that I really do have to post it. Just remember that you brought this up and that this is in response to your previous posts. I do not know you at all but from what you've written, and this reply reflects what I've read.

i would have no problem with that...i look out for number 1 and am not concerned about the health and welfare of the others that arent in my camp...consider me derranged...or less of a human because im not willing to lend a helping hand but i could care less about my neighbors

I'm not sure if I consider you less of a human being (there are many with that attitude) but I'm sure not going to turn my back to you.

just seems to me from the responses that many of you survival minded people are entrusting too many others with your lives...and if you tell me that you would not use your advantage of firepower to feed your own starving kids over your neighbors than i think maybe your values should be questioned...or maybe mine should?

If I had kids, I might feel differently. If I wound up taking care of any of my nieces and nephews I would do everything in my power to ensure that they are safe. If that means begging someone for food or doing degrading work, I'd do it. I'm still not sure I could steal from someone else (who might have kids of his own!) for them, though. I don't know.

I don't have kids, though, so it's me and my wife. We are adults who can take care of ourselves. Our values, though, do NOT allow us to plunder others simply because we can. If that means our lives... well, there are many others throughout history who've died for their beliefs - because they wouldn't compromise them. I can say with confidence that my wife feels the same way - we've been married for almost 20 years and I know what she feels in something like this.

I definitely think that you should be questioning your values. Why should you compromise your morals because you're in desperate straits? Heck, for that matter, if you're behind on your rent, why not use that gun of yours to rob a liquor store for some money. Hey, you gotta look out for number one!

Desperate times do NOT mean that we should stop acting in a moral fashion.

after todays bomb threat i realized i wasnt prepared and will start to make a BO kit.

Can't argue with you there. I'm doing it too.

the other thing i was going to suggest was...although many of you probably think ill of me now...would you ever think forming up...like members on here that are in your surrounding communities banding together? dare i say as a militia to kind of keep order? or do you not think that would be a good idea...although you guys said strength in numbers

Um... not with your comments in this post, no. There are several men and women on this board that I do trust, but to put it bluntly, I'd never be able to feel safe with you at my back after reading your comments in this thread.

 

[LORD of WAR]

dwarven...dont hold back...im glad you posted what you did

we apparently have a very different set of beliefs which is fine...maybe ive just seen some of the worst of human nature in my short life to really believe anyone is truly that kind...just seems in my life experiences most people will try to "f" you over for their own reasons...whatever they may be...as far as morals...i think mine were lost somewhere around the age of 17 but thats another issue for another day haha

as far as robbing the liquor store thats irrational under the given circumstances...we are talking 2 seperate scenarios...one is current life the other is all hell breaking loose

i think desperate times call for desperate measures and me...id do WHATEVER i need to to ensure my well being...take another life to extend mine? sure why not...i think its how we got to where we are today...war...killing...its the way we move up the food chain is it not?

as far as my neighbors go...theres not 1 of them that if they were on fire i would piss on to put them out...so i guess that explains my attitude to honoring thy neighbor and not coveting anything that belongs to thy neighbor

i just truly believe that in such an instance as you guys may be preparing for that the worst in human nature would come out...again look at katrina...life went back to the dark ages...raping and pillaging to survive...what would make any of the situations described in some of these threads any different on humanity?

 

[dwarven1]

I'm guessing that you're still in your 20's, right? I hope that as you live life you will discover that intangible things can be more important than anything else.

Regarding the liquor store comment: it may be two scenarios, but from what you're saying I really can't see much difference - desperate is desperate.

i know im one of the only people in my neighbor hood with firearms...so in a way doesnt that make me topgun??? (no pun intented) in all seriousness...if i have a gun and you dont and you have fresh water and i dont...guess what...its my water now

if i have a gun and you dont and you have money and i dont...guess what...its my money now

Don't you see the fact that these situations are the same?

I'm sorry to hear that about your neighbors; I can think of only one place I lived - an apartment in Norwood that I lived in for 3 months - where I didn't get to know at least ONE set of neighbors. Houses? Well, two summers ago I ran over to my neighbor's house - which was on fire - and thought briefly about trying to get in to see if I could get them out. (briefly, I said - that I didn't try is because I knew that opening their door would just open the damper on the fire. Fortunately they weren't home. But I didn't think twice about running over there and pounding on the door trying to wake them if they were by chance still alive. No, I'm not particularly close to Gary & Kathy - never even had them over for dinner (something I really need to correct). But I know them, and just could NOT think of doing anything else than what I did. It's what neighbors do.)

Yes, human nature being what it is, there will be some who revert to barbaric behavior if TSHTF. I am going try my damndest to not be one of them. Have you ever read any accounts of what happened when the Titanic went down? Those people KNEW that there weren't enough life boats, and that without a life boat death was a certainty - yet some deliberately gave up their seats to others. Could they have forced their way in? Sure. Could they have LIVED with themselves after doing so?? In the dead of night when you are all alone and you see your soul as it is, warts and all? Nope. They could not... and they did what they had to do, knowing that death would be the result of their actions.

Basically, I do feel that I will be called to account for my actions in my life. I'm by no means perfect; but I do not want the kind of actions you contemplate to be charged against me when I'm standing before the Supreme Architect of the Universe.

 

[Executive]

i could take whatever else i need from the unarmed people...am i wrong in thinking this?

I would recommend staying away from my neighborhood if the SHTF. The problem is, you don't know who I am or if I have guns until you show up (perhaps randomly) at my home or on the street. I assure you, you would find out quickly that even predators like yourself (in a hypothetical SHTF situation, of course) can and will be put down.

If you are taking things from unarmed people at the point of a gun in my neck of the woods you will be strung up. pure and simple. PREPARE. you have the right to protect your self and possesions but not to steal from others.

+1

If someone came to my door in a katrina type situation, and told me they were going to kill me for what I have, BOOM says the gun to the forehead...

And to answer your question, I will do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to protect and keep my family safe.

+1000000

 

[LORD of WAR]

well then i guess by the standards here im a 22 year old barbaric hellraiser with no morals or values and an urge to kill...maybe i should join the marines then...but wait they still cant kill without the command to...now private contractors...thats where its at...kill at will and loot and pillage AND get paid for it...sounds like fun


well anyways...think what you will about my moral character...guess well see what happens when and if the shtf...and well see whos standing...whether or not its in front of the pearly gates with a big shit eatin grin on my face and blood on my hands or not

 

[Executive]

well then i guess by the standards here im a 22 year old barbaric hellraiser with no morals or values and an urge to kill...maybe i should join the marines then...but wait they still cant kill without the command to...now private contractors...thats where its at...kill at will and loot and pillage AND get paid for it...sounds like fun


well anyways...think what you will about my moral character...guess well see what happens when and if the shtf...and well see whos standing...whether or not its in front of the pearly gates with a big shit eatin grin on my face and blood on my hands or not

...and I thought you were a d--khead back when your most offensive post was about pro football. You have some issues, man. Get some help.