Drivers License to shoot?

[Moderator]

I am a member at AFS (American Firearms School), I went over there last night to get some over due target practice done and was surprised to find that I must now sign a log book when entering and exiting the range. This did not bother me so much, but then I was asked for my drivers license. They said the ATF requested drivers license number's for all people (members or not) using the range. I was told that if I did not render this information I could not use the range. WTF?

Why do they need this?
Is it legal for them to make me give them this information?

 

[dwarven1]

Time to get another membership somewhere else, BJ... Note the phrasing:

They said the ATF requested drivers license number's for all people (members or not) using the range.

Not "demanded", but "requested". Sounds like AFS is rolling over for someone.

 

[Len-2A Training]

It sounds like the BATFE (and probably Homeland Security) is breathing down their necks. See if you can talk with Matt and find out what's behind it.

My bet is that BATFE or Homeland Security is demanding this log and will be checking it for "suspected terrorists".

Too bad that nobody from AFS participates here any more!

BJ, see if you can convince Matt to drop in here a bit and keep us informed of what's happening at AFS?

 

[Moderator]

I asked for Matt yesterday, they said he would be unavailable until tomorrow. I may give Wayne a call today.

 

[News Shooter]

they do the same thing

at the Smith & Wesson range in SPringfield

 

[M1911]

Is it legal for them to make me give them this information?

It's their range, they can ask for whatever they want.

But why are you going to AFS? There are plenty of private gun clubs on the south shore that are a whole lot cheaper than AFS.

 

[JonJ]

If enough people do an about face and walk out the door when they ask for this info, maybe they'll change their policy.

 

[Len-2A Training]

If enough people do an about face and walk out the door when they ask for this info, maybe they'll change their policy.

I have a gut feeling that this is NOT of their choosing!

Since anyone can use a public range, rent a gun and are NOT required to have a LTC, there is "increased interest" by certain agencies as to who frequents such places.

The Columbine murderers practiced at some range, Lee Harvey Oswald practiced at some range, certain Muslim terrorists practiced flying (but not landing or take-offs) at some flight schools, etc. Ergo, there is some legitimate interest in what goes on at public ranges . . . but there is a lot of room for abuse by gov't as well.

Unlike a private gun club, which has NO LICENSES from any gov't agency and thus can tell them to "pound sand", a public range with an FFL can be forced to do a lot of things (or face administrative punishment) that "free people" can't be forced to do.

 

[C-pher]

It's their range, they can ask for whatever they want.

But why are you going to AFS? There are plenty of private gun clubs on the south shore that are a whole lot cheaper than AFS.

I've been trying to get him to come over to Mansfield for a long time.


But, with AFS he gets the comfort of shooting in the winter without freezing his tail off.

 

[JonJ]

Unlike a private gun club, which has NO LICENSES from any gov't agency and thus can tell them to "pound sand", a public range with an FFL can be forced to do a lot of things (or face administrative punishment) that "free people" can't be forced to do.

Whatever agency is now requiring this should be able to back it up. I'd like to read the law or regulation that now makes this a stipulation of holding an FFL.
Sounds like pure BS to me.

 

[M1911]

But, with AFS he gets the comfort of shooting in the winter without freezing his tail off.

There are plenty of private clubs with indoor, heated ranges. And they cost one heck of a lot less than AFS.

 

[C-pher]

Yea, I was just talking in respect for Mansfield.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Whatever agency is now requiring this should be able to back it up. I'd like to read the law or regulation that now makes this a stipulation of holding an FFL.
Sounds like pure BS to me.

I'm aware that BATFE, CHSB and the AG have forced people to do things by coercion that if you or I did it, we'd be crucified in court (justifiably). They play an "either you do this, or else" game with their victims and they get away with it because they can always pull some administrative crap on them.

Personal example: Back ~1982 I got called Downtown for an IRS audit of my business expenses for TY 1979. The auditor's opening statement was "Is your tax return accurate as you filed it?" My answer was "NO, I found some additional deductions that I had not declared!" Well he went thru only some of what I had declared and looked at some of my documentation, then looked up and said to me that if I agreed to NOT file an amended return for the newly found deductions, he'd close the audit as "no additional taxes due". However, he said that if I insisted on amending my return, then he would look thru each deduction very carefully and "I am sure that I can find somethings that we won't allow". Extortion, yes . . . but I went along with him because the amount of money wasn't worth the hassle of a number of more hours defending every damn receipt (which I had with me in case I was asked)!

I have heard Bill Pickett (former BATFE and former CHSB) brag about how they gave a Hobson's <sp?> choice to many MA FFLs for minor issues . . . offering them to drop it if they handed over their FFL and MA Dealer's Licenses "voluntarily" vs. nailing them legally if they refused.

It's just this sort of "behavior" that I expect AFS was subjected to (but I only know for a fact what is posted here).

 

[Moderator]

I just got off the phone with Wayne from AFS (Matt is still unavailable). He stated that he does not know exactly why the ATF wants this information but that AFS was asked to comply with their request. I also asked if Wayne would care to discuss the topic here on the forum and respectfully he said that he would not, but that tomorrow I could ask Matt if he has any interest to post about the situation.

 

[drgrant]

This requirement is not all that unusual. Even a lot of the pay ranges
in free states require a photocopy of a DL plus signing some kind of
release waiver or other crap. Some of this may even be some sort
of odd requirement posed by their insurance company.


-Mike

 

[Chris]

Didn't the hijackers on 9/11 have box cutters? They sell those down at the local Cumberland Farms. Why doesn't the BATF require them to log the ID of everyone? Afterall, the largest deadly incidents in this country had nothing to do with firearms.

O yea, silly me. It isn't about safety, it's about control.

 

[SiameseRat]

stuff like this makes me love the MRA even more...

I have to wonder what brought this level of attention to AFS in the first place. Have there been any thefts or accidents there?

 

[Scrivener]

Why a driver's license? IF the purpose is simply to prove that the person renting the gun/range is actually who they claim to be, ANY photo ID would suffice.

I've flown 3 times this year, including two trips outside the CONUS, and used a firearms license more often than a drivers license when checking luggage or boarding the plane. Other than a TSA drone who was too stupid to process any input other than the DLs her little mind could recognize, I had no problems.

Then again, a local dealer has the assinine practice of "requiring" a driver's license to buy a gun. Given that one must produce a gun license for the purchase, that said license has a photo on it and is far less likely to be counterfeit that a DL, his practice is not merely unproductive, but insulting and stupid.

The last time I bought a gun there, I refused to produce the DL and gave another state's photo LTC instead. I got the gun.

Then again, they all know me there.

Which makes the "requirement" even more absurd..........

 

[Chris]

Maybe it was 'because' they know you that they asked.....

(^_^)

 

[Moderator]

Why a driver's license? IF the purpose is simply to prove that the person renting the gun/range is actually who they claim to be, ANY photo ID would suffice.

They actually write you drivers license number in the book.

 

[M1911]

Maybe it was 'because' they know you that they asked.

For extra-special friends of Rick

 

[Scrivener]

For extra-special friends of Rick

"Round up the usual suspects.........."

 

[JackO]

stuff like this makes me love the MRA even more...

Talking the MRA, aren't you required to log your every arrival and departure time, range, and MRA ID number?
Yeh, yeh, insurance liability BS.
Too bad I dont remember if I was required to give them my DL number on the application.

 

[FPrice]

The last time I bought a gun there, I refused to produce the DL and gave another state's photo LTC instead. I got the gun.

Then again, they all know me there.

And the owner's comment was:

Of all the gun joints, in all the towns, in all the world, he had to walk into mine.

 

[daceman63]

I'm totally missing the point......please explain to me what the big deal is of showing your DL?

They used to ask for it when paying by check at the store.....some places still ask for it. I'm not hiding anything so I have no issue showing my DL. Yes, they used box cutters on 9/11, but if everyone is b#tching about more security we all have to make that little extra sacrifice. If all I have to do is show my DL so someone can verify that I am who I am I have no issue with that. All the information is there for those agencies if they really want to dig and get it.

 

[Moderator]

The big deal is, Why does the ATF need it? I don't care if AFS wants it for liability, survey, or contact info. The ATF does not need to know where I (a legally licensed "subject") is shooting. Whats next? What kind of targets do I use? How good am I?....

 

[M1911]

Talking the MRA, aren't you required to log your every arrival and departure time, range, and MRA ID number?

That's typical at many gun clubs. If something bad happens or the range is damaged, we want to know who was there at the time (so we can determine who might have been responsible).

 

[daceman63]

The big deal is, Why does the ATF need it? I don't care if AFS wants it for liability, survey, or contact info. The ATF does not need to know where I (a legally licensed "subject") is shooting. Whats next? What kind of targets do I use? How good am I?....

I'm guessign that they do need to know who is "a legally licensed subject" so they can determine who is not. I'm not saying it is, but if this is so they can identify potential terrorists how does it hurt to show your DL? You have to show it when you buy beer....we show it all the time...this isn't a big deal, at least not to me.

 

[Len-2A Training]

I'm guessign that they do need to know who is "a legally licensed subject" so they can determine who is not. I'm not saying it is, but if this is so they can identify potential terrorists how does it hurt to show your DL? You have to show it when you buy beer....we show it all the time...this isn't a big deal, at least not to me.

I think the problem is that hte ATF is given this info for their databases and witchhunts.

When you buy booze, they LOOK at your DL, but don't write everything down and hand it to some gov't agency . . . at least not yet.

 

[Moderator]

You show you license as proof of age, How would you like it if the ATF wanted you license number to keep track of what you have been drinking and where you drink?